CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: DTrubs on July 14, 2009, 11:12:11 AM
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Hi all,
I've just received the 5 generation pedigree certificates for my two bundles of joy. When I bought them, I thought I was buying two show cockers - their mum and dad certainly looked that way! Now they are 4 months old, one looks a lot more like a working cocker than the other (even though they are brothers.)
On the certificate, there is a whole section of field trial champions. Are ft ch usually working cockers? Can cockers be a mixture of show and working but still be pedigree and KC registered? None of this means that I won't want them anymore :D i'm just fascinated by the 5 generation breeding (and may have spent last night on google images looking up their ancestors ph34r)
Thanks!!
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if you are able to post the names people will probably be abe able to tell you whether they are show or workers. I've always understood that ft ch meant workers too - but i'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be able to help you out. Have you posted any photos? - would love to see them. :blink:
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FTCH means Field Trial Champion and is usually found on working Cocker pedigrees or on the pedigrees of dogs which are a mixture of the two types. Both working and show types are pedigree Cockers, they are two strains of the same breed and so a mix of the two is still a pedigree Cocker and can be KC registered. There is usually no good reason to mix the two strains though, I don't know of any really good Cocker breeders who would do this other than on extremely rare occasions for a very specific reason. It's usually done by either commercial breeders for colour (usually to produce some variation on the 'chocolate' theme) or by back yard breeders who either don't know or don't care about what they're doing in mixing the strains.
Did your breeder tell you that the pups were full show Cockers when you went to see them? It's possible that the parents are a mixture of show and working types themselves so the pups will have a % of show type and a % of worker in them but not necessarily 50/50.
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FTCH are always working cockers. It means they are field trial winners.
You can KC register a mix of working and show so they will still be KC registered if they are a mix.
Do they have any SHCH in there pedigree?
Nic explained it much better than me :blink:
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My OH just really made me laugh, I was telling him about your post and he said FTCH really means
Fun To Chase and Hunt :005: :005:
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My OH just really made me laugh, I was telling him about your post and he said FTCH really means
Fun To Chase and Hunt :005: :005:
Ha ha! He's got that right :shades: :lol2: :lol2:
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Just out of interest - if you had a show cocker that you worked and entered into working trials - if it won, would it not also have the FTCh affix irrespective of its lineage?
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Just out of interest - if you had a show cocker that you worked and entered into working trials - if it won, would it not also have the FTCh affix irrespective of its lineage?
just what i was wondering too :D
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Just out of interest - if you had a show cocker that you worked and entered into working trials - if it won, would it not also have the FTCh affix irrespective of its lineage?
just what i was wondering too :D
I'm sure that in some of the other European countries, the show cockers have to be able to work before the can win any show titles (correct me if I'm wrong)
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Just out of interest - if you had a show cocker that you worked and entered into working trials - if it won, would it not also have the FTCh affix irrespective of its lineage?
Yes FTCH is about the trial not the breed. So a show cocker could be a FTCH. FTCH is also the title working labs and springers have on their peds when they are made up to field trial champions
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Just out of interest - if you had a show cocker that you worked and entered into working trials - if it won, would it not also have the FTCh affix irrespective of its lineage?
just what i was wondering too :D
I'm sure that in some of the other European countries, the show cockers have to be able to work before the can win any show titles (correct me if I'm wrong)
I could be wrong but I *think* its a working test they have to complete to show they are fit for standard.
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Just out of interest - if you had a show cocker that you worked and entered into working trials - if it won, would it not also have the FTCh affix irrespective of its lineage?
just what i was wondering too :D
Yes, if a show Cocker won the appropriate field trials they'd be a FTCH. If they were already a show champion or became a show champion afterwards then they'd then be a dual champion. I think the last time a show Cocker managed that was in the 1990s.
Edited, confused full and dual champions.
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Just out of interest - if you had a show cocker that you worked and entered into working trials - if it won, would it not also have the FTCh affix irrespective of its lineage?
just what i was wondering too :D
I'm sure that in some of the other European countries, the show cockers have to be able to work before the can win any show titles (correct me if I'm wrong)
I could be wrong but I *think* its a working test they have to complete to show they are fit for standard.
Yes in some countries they also have to show that the dogs are fit to work; here in the UK there is the Kennel Club Show Gundog Working Certificate but I don't know how many show dogs actually do this. I think it counts towards full champion status if they're also a SHCH.
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very very few show cockers in this country are ever field trialled - it would be pretty much grasping at straws to think in a pedigree at the moment that a FT CH is anything but a working cocker
....and there are only a handful of show cocker breeders in this country that breed unusual colours that have an all show pedigree - a lot of unusual colours (liver roan, liver roan and tan etc) are mixed worker/show (and sold as show) as these colours aren't that uncommon on working side.
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I know a couple of exhibitors who work their show cockers but as they only have a handful of dogs between them I
can't imagine there would be many exhibited show cockers with FTCH in their pedigrees. :-\
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Thanks so much for all your replies!
The more I look at him now, the more he looks and acts like a working cocker. He has about 10 FT CH in his line, 1 SH CH and 1 IR CH, so I guess the working prevailed in his case. He's also a liver roan which seems to be more common in the working strain.
I didn't ask about him being a show cocker when I bought him, I just assumed after seeing his parents. It doesn't matter to me as we won't be breeding or showing him, just hoping that he'll make a great family dog (which he is already proving to be :luv:) I really wanted a working cocker so it's turned out great that we now have one of each as his brother is a show boy through and through!
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Jay is a 5 generation pedigree as well :luv: His mum is working cocker and has a host of field champions on her side and Jays dad is Show cocker and again their are show champions on his side as well. It was very interesting to look at his pedigree bloodlines I must admit. Jay is a chunky puppy at 6 months old, not fat as I can feel but not see his ribs but he has a heavy coat and a curly top knot. He definitley resembles his dads side. :luv:
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Hiya peeps,
Just wanted to say that there are 'Working Tests',' Field Trials' and indeed there ARE 'Working Trials', as i have competed in them.
It is extremely doubtful, dare i say it - impossible for a cocker, either show OR worker to attain the Working Trials Champion status, as in order to progress up the stages, they would need to do the 'big dogs' agility section, 3ft hurdle, 9ft long jump and 6ft scale. In the first couple of stakes/stages, the agility section is scaled down for the smaller dogs.
The nosework/tracking and control would be fine and the stays would be ok (possibly!), but even the fittest cocker would have a problem with the jumps, mainly the long jump.
Ali