Ian Dunbar Toilet Training?

[EmmaRose]

The method just sounds a bit extreme to be honest and I just wonder when you do stop using the crate for the toilet training you'd still be taking the puppy out on the hour so why not just do this now?  Also if your puppy is out of her crate you should find over time she will begin to show you cues that she needs the loo, such as going to the back door.  It's really important your puppy is exploring and playing at this age so she can learn all about her new home but not sure how much she could do this from being in a crate a lot of the time.  You could also be carrying her outside on a little walk so she can get used to the sights and sounds of the world. If she is in a crate until she is toilet trained then a crucial window for socialisation has been missed...

I also work from home so am at home most of the time - so my two are with me all the time. Please don't feel judged, your obviously a caring owner who is worried about doing the right thing for your new puppy.  Just be careful about following any book to the letter.  I think this method just sounds like it wants to eliminate the possibility of the puppy having an accident inside - but accidents are all part having a puppy and will happen

Could you not leave the door open to her crate so she can go in if she wants but also you could have more time with her, play together and get to enjoy your time with her as a puppy.

[Markr64]

I have been looking at this thread and it's answers before I made a comment. I am always a bit wary of rave reviews of things as it is the case that you can get reviews from anywhere and also in some cases offer a favourable return for a good review.

As many have said what is wrong with the tried and tested ways of bringing up a puppy? I am not judging you as I understand that you are trying to do what you have been led to believe is a way of bringing up the pup. As a pup they are used to having a lot of play time with litter mates and this helps in their development for the rest of their days. By confining to a crate you are stopping the important learning at the best age to take it on board. By all means use the crate at night or for some rest periods in the day, but from what you have described you are shutting away the pup from all the learning experiences and more time with you. If you are home all the time you are also stopping yourself from some lovely times with an enjoyable little pup who will be desperate to play.

I would look at other ways and consider them also.

[Mudmagnets]

Having read your pasted instructions it looked to me (and I could be wrong) that you put your puppy in the crate just before you want her to pee/poo and then put his/her lead on and take her immediately outside so there are no distractions on the way and give the pee/poop command. If she does what is required you praise, and if not put her back in the crate and try again in about 30 mins. I don't think Dunbar means you to keep the pup cooped up for all the while between toilet breaks, but as I say I am not really sure as the instructions are indeed confusing.

What is pups name, we have not welcomed her to COL yet 

[bizzylizzy]

Please don't feel anyone is judging you! thats not we're about here on COL, we all do things different ways but the whole point of a forum is to discuss, throw ideas into the ring and try and help each other out. Its inevitable that when we're trying to defend our own methods, we're pointing out the disadvantages, from our points of view,of the other methods because that's how we arrived at the decision about which course to take but that doesn't mean we necessarily disapprove! I've learned an awful lot on here, although I have had dogs all my life, Humphrey is my fist spaniel. Every action causes a reaction and its good to try and see beyond just solving the current problem. lots of people here have a wealth of experience which is priceless in training this lovely but very special breed. Good luck!

[Jane S]

Here are some pages which go into more detail on this method, just for information:

https://www.siriuspup.com/blog/puppy-house-training-tips-dr-ian-dunbar-how-teach-your-puppy-eliminate-cue

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/errorless-housetraining

[daw]

I have to be upfront and say I hate crates! They are not natural and a thing that came here from America where animal welfare is abysmal. In Finland among other countries they are banned as inhumane.

Also don't they go against your own intuition which is to let your puppy have freedom, as much contact with you as possible and just be loved and free as it was with its mother? I couldn't stand to do otherwise. I'm not judging you- I think you've been misled by one more 'dog expert' who hopes to make money from a book and comes up with a new spin. Publishing I do know something about!

Before you stick rigidly to this any more consider this: there was once a woman called Barbara Woodhouse who taught a whole generation of dog owners that having a choke chain on your dog and yanking its throat every couple of seconds was a good idea. I saw this as as a girl and was reduced to tears by it. And thousands of dogs probably got damaged, scarred throats as a result but she made a lot of money and became a celebrity. Please think again and consider another method.

[bizzylizzy]

I remember her, - actually bought her book back in the 80's. The awful woman advocated having the vocal chords cut to stop barking!!! Amazing that she was so popular, but like someone's already pointed out, its clever marketing!

[bizzylizzy]

P.s. - I've just looked at her solution for training an older dog -quote
" The remedy is simply to confine the dog in an indoor kennel whichnis just big enough for him to stand up and turn around in but not big enough to give him the freedom to cock his leg. (...). this should house train a dog in 24 hours. If it does not, have him castrated: the dog is probably oversexed" unquote!!!

I rest my case!😱

[Murphys Law]

I have got to agree with Daw on this. I have spent a lot of time in America and I believe they are light years behind us where animal welfare is concerned.

What's up with the good old fashioned method of letting the pup out every hour, praising and treating when they go to the toilet. It might take longer and you will have some accidents but I would be far more comfortable with this than the crate method.

[Mudmagnets]

I remember watching Barbara too. Used to have dogs in her class going round in circles doing 'heelwork' and yanking on their leads, choke chains attached, usually on the wrong way! I do remember one particular episode where a chihuahua was left dangling by the neck it was pulled so hard. 

She later went on to 'train' horses I think.

[Jane S]

Dr Dunbar is nothing like Barbara Woodhouse - he has been at the forefront of promoting modern reward-based training techniques in the USA (not easy when the likes of Cesar Milan are so popular) & he never advocates confining dogs for long periods in crates. Whether you personally like crates or not, used properly they are not in any way cruel and can be a life saver in some instances (eg if you have a sick or injured dog) - I'm personally very glad our dogs are happy in crates (NEVER for long periods though), it makes travelling safer for them and also helps if they have to stay in at the vets (most modern vet surgeries use crate type compartments these days for dogs awaiting tests or surgery). Re the situation in Finland, crates are allowed for temporary use, travel, illness etc - they are not banned totally.

I suggest if anyone wants to debate the merits or otherwise of crates, could they please start a new thread on the General Dog Discussion board - this will prevent this thread being taken over by heated arguments (people do tend to get quite heated over this issue )

[Mudmagnets]

Dr Dunbar is nothing like Barbara Woodhouse

I for 1 was not suggesting he is, just stating that I remember her and some of her nasty methods. Couldn't see her being as popular now as back then. Thankfully we have moved on.

As far as I know (through reading up) Ian Dunbar started APDT the dog friendly training system.

[daw]

Nor did I suggest he was- simply that it's easy for some 'new' theory of house-training (or any other training) to lead people into sticking rigorously to something that doesn't suit their puppy.

As for crates, yes I am aware they have uses for a sick dog or safe transport but my feeling and experience is that they are an unnecessary hardship to house train a puppy and that's what I thought this thread was about. 

[Jane S]

You didn't qualify your post Daw - you said you hated crates rather than saying you hated crates for house training purposes. If you have never used a crate you probably don't appreciate how useful they can be when used SENSIBLY - of course there are other methods of house training that can be used successfully (nobody has suggested otherwise) but nor should crate training be dismissed out of hand with the clear inference that it's cruel to toilet train using this method (leaving dogs in crates while an owner is at work could well be deemed cruel which seems to be what the Finnish legislation was aimed at but using them for house training for short periods for a matter of weeks is a different matter all together).

[daw]

Well I think we'll have to agree to differ re housetraining. The use of crates in this way (the horror of Barbara Woodhouse nothwithstanding- thanks for the quote!) is relatively modern and like many other animal husbandry techniques isn't always in the interests of the animal. I'd try anything before putting a puppy in a crate. As for sensible use, this is such a subjective thing...perhaps whoever owned the poor wretched little Lenny (in the Rescue section) thought it was because nobody ever acts in a way that doesn't make sense to them. My problem with this is- to me anyway- it doesn't always make sense for a puppy. (Or to it I imagine if it could speak for itself.) 

One of the things I ask when doing homechecks is how do you intend to housetrain your dog/ puppy? And I would definitely talk through all the options as directed by my rescue. And I'd expect to hear an approach that wasn't rigid or expecting too much, that could cope with accidents in the house etc. And understood that most puppies are housetrained when they are physiologically able to be so. And not before. Whatever technical fix  is used.