Ian Dunbar Toilet Training?

[Mudmagnets]

Well having read the sirius link in Jane's post about this, I am no longer sure, I thought it must be that you put the pup in for a short while before taking him out to perform, but apparently not.

I guess there is more than one way to do anything, different ideas to one's own don't necessarily have to be wrong.

I use a pen for Branston as he can be a chewer and so when I am out of the room for a while for any reason, or when we go to bed, he goes in happily and I leave him things he can chew without getting into trouble and that suits us both.

[rednblack]

I wonder if the OP is referring to Ian Dunbar's book "Before and After Getting your Puppy"?  Feeling that there was always something to learn of new methods of training, I got a copy of this.  I was also predisposed to it as his "Bite Stops Here" method gets lots of quotes all over the place (not just on COL).
 
However, I was shocked to see that he does, as the OP has said, state that the puppy should be kept confined until it is housetrained, and illustrates the method with a portable crate to be taken, with the pup inside, to wherever the owner is - working, relaxing, or eating.  He says this confinement should be "for the first few weeks at home". (The pup illustrated is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, a breed which like Cockers is a "velcro" dog.)
 
I never actually followed many of his ideas, especially since my youngster was one of those who thinks "Ouch!!!" means "Bite me more!".
 
Some of his suggestions are probably good, but take a lot of winnowing out from what's quite a long densely packed book. 
 
I also disagreed strongly with his way of dealing with growling, which he regards as something to be discouraged.
 
It's not always easy to find the right book when confronted with so many choices, and full marks to the OP for not buying into Cesar Milan's books (which are everywhere in the petshops where I live).  I don't know if this is her first pup, and am not surprised if she is a bit dazed by the amount of conflicting advice out there (my youngster was not my first, but I was still amazed at all the "stuff" there is now compared to when I had my first pup.   
 

[daw]

And just not to be misunderstood I'm not referring to puppy pens when I talk about crates.

[honeysmummy]

Thank you all for your feedback.

I'm not a first time Cocker owner but it's been 9 years since my last pup and I didn't really try too hard to housetrain him and he took his merry time!

Honey (my little girl) is the only dog in the house so the poster who mentioned other dogs passing on good habits, thank you. She's going to have to learn it herself a little bit.

Look, I'm learning every day.

I've booked in with an extremely well respected guy (kennel club approved at the highest level for dog training as well as working with big movies to train dogs and he does lots of puppy classes and one to ones anywhere in the U.K.  He's here tomorrow and I am completely open minded to anything he suggests, having seen Honey, me, our home set up, etc. 

I've been in tears most days because it is all completely overwhelming doing this by the book and having many of you say go by what feels right is extremely helpful.

Today I have only put Honey into her crate twice and both times I've needed to go upstairs and she's been sleepy anyway and has gone straight back to sleep in her crate.

I've let her out and let her follow me around the kitchen (we have a big kitchen/diner/living room where we spend most of our time) and she has been happy chewing her toys and watching me.

Trust me when I say, I am a huge dog lover. I want what is best for my little girl. I want her to be happy and to feel safe and secure with us forever.

When I researched, what Ian Dunbar says about crate training seemed to make sense and seemed to be a speedy way of training.

However, I worry endlessly that I'm doing he wrong thing and I'll upset her (although currently she doesn't seem anything but confident, happy and bitey!).

I hope I've not offended anyone and I'm grateful for your help.

I'll update tomorrow once I've met with the trainer.

So far we have had four wees indoors today. Up until today we hadn't had more than three since she arrived. I'm not precious about cleaning up after her but I am conscious that with such a large room, she has done it out of my eye line all four times!

She's also a poo eater although I'll post separately about that! I've never had that with my other two Cockers! Yikes!

[daw]

It's so obvious you are a really good owner and I'm sure nobody on this thread doubts that. Good luck with your lovely puppy. And yeah- go with your heart and experience!

[Joules]

Daw, there are many people (including myself) who have used crates for their puppies and older dogs with great success.  When used correctly they are a brilliant tool and cause no problems for the dog: in fact most pups love their crates    If used properly there is no way they could be described as cruel.  When Coco was a pup, it was really the only way to ensure her safety when I couldn't watch her.  She was never confined to the crate for long periods and I am never going to advocate that a pup should be.  A crate should be a safe place for a pup where they can sleep and relax and where only good things happen.

We get the message that you are vehemently against them, but please do not dismiss their use when you have not used them and clearly have a completely closed mind on the subject! 

[twiceover2]

It is very clear that you are the sort of owner every puppy should have and that you are doing your best for Honey and willing to try new things.  I am glad you have stopped sticking to the rigid rules.  You will soon see what suits the two of you best and toilet-training will soon be over.  Suddenly, you'll realise she hasn't weed in the house for ages.  It really helps to try and be as relaxed about things as possible as puppies pick up on our emotions - cut yourself and Honey some slack.

I mentioned about puppies learning from other dogs.  If you have any friends with calm older vaccinated dogs, now is the time to introduce Honey to them.  It is also good for her to have some playtime with other puppies but I know it isn't always possible.  When we got our first dog, none of our family or friends had dogs but we did go to training classes where he mixed with other puppies and he went to a dog sitter one morning a week and met other dogs there.

Good luck with the trainer tomorrow but long-term trust yourself because you have Honey's best interests at heart.

[Joules]

Honeysmummy, it is obvious that you want to do the best for your pup. 

There are a few things that occur to me:

Having a new puppy is a shock!  It is hard work, overwhelming and frustrating.  Most of us have been there and survived more or less sane 

It takes a while for the pup to adjust to a new home and family.  It also takes us, as owners, time to adjust. Over time, we learn to get on together and find ways of doing things that work for us both!  We learn methods and tips from various places and in the end, it is usually a combination of different things that will work for each particular case.  You are still learning what works for you and for your pup, so don't be so hard on yourself, try not to be too rigid in the methods you try.

Coco took bloomin' ages to housetrain - it was very hard work.  I was also in tears many times during her first months (not just over housetraining, but we will let you find that out in time  ) 

It is winter and it is much harder to train a pup in the winter.  I got Coco at the end of October and spent her first few months standing out in the rain and dark begging her to perform.    It may take longer, but you will get there!  Try to relax and not put pressure on yourself or your pup. I had so many people telling me that their dog was trained in 2 weeks or never weed in their house, that I thought I was doing it all wrong.  People lie!!  I then read something that said not to expect too much before the pup is a year old.  I relaxed and realised it would fall into place. 

For now, I would take the pup out every hour and after sleeping, eating etc, praise like mad when she gets it right.  Then take her out and about to socialise her, let people fuss her and let her experience new sights and sounds.

Most of all, enjoy her while she is a pup.  We often spend so long trying to get the basic training right and getting the pup to conform to what we think they should do, that we forget to enjoy the time when they are little - it goes so quickly 

[bizzylizzy]

I do know how you feel - I'm normally pretty laid back but have to admit to also bursting into tears out of sheer frustration and "my failure", when Humphrey just stood and weed in front of me. We laugh about now,,as you will in a couple of weeks, when Honey's housetrained. While I really love this forum and can't praise enough, I do think we're all in danger of researching every little thing to a point that we a) are frightened to make any decision without consulting Google and b) are starting to ignore our own gut feelings. I admit to being the world's worst at this but also recognize that its not always very helpful as its making me too indecisive. My advice now, would be to take a step back, weigh up all the evidence, make a decision and then try and follow it through. Crate or no crate, she'll probabl be dry in a few more weeks anyway. Try and relax a bit and enjoy Honey while she's still at this lovely stage!!

[Helen]

I crate trained Jago - he adored being in there. It was cosy, his own space...and good things always happened in there - treats and his kong and even his meals.  I didn't use it as a method of housetraining though. He was a winter pup - i will never have one in winter again!!!!  He 'got' housetraining pretty quickly thankfully. 

I think the other thing that has been missed in the rush to condemn a puppy in a crate is that it is vital puppies have their sleep - and they should in the early days be sleeping up to 18 hours a day. Jago would sleep in his crate for up to 3 hours at a time - even with the crate door open 

[daw]

Daw, there are many people (including myself) who have used crates for their puppies and older dogs with great success.  When used correctly they are a brilliant tool and cause no problems for the dog: in fact most pups love their crates    If used properly there is no way they could be described as cruel.  When Coco was a pup, it was really the only way to ensure her safety when I couldn't watch her.  She was never confined to the crate for long periods and I am never going to advocate that a pup should be.  A crate should be a safe place for a pup where they can sleep and relax and where only good thing happen.

We get the message that you are vehemently against them, but please do not dismiss their use when you have not used them and clearly have a completely closed mind on the subject! 

Ouch! Why is being against their use 'having a closed mind' but being for their use not? Nowhere did I say I've never used a crate for welfare purposes. I've certainly helped get a terrified animal into one to be safely transported. Nor can I find anywhere my saying Honeysmum was being cruel either because I've made it clear I think she's a good owner. I think quite a few people on this and several other threads to do with housetraining have pointed out they never used crates and wouldn't. If you get their message too, that's fine. But this is a forum and surely you can cope with people giving advice, describing their own experience and having a view about animal welfare without that?



 

[honeysmummy]

OK now I'm having a little sob over how lovely you're all being.

Thank you so much all.

Fingers crossed my little cherub will enjoy her time with us and she'll forgive my stressy first week with her. She's pretty incredible and in a week she's learned to sit and to fetch and she sleeps so well at night too. I need to put it into perspective and see what she's achieving already. 

I noticed that they need around 18 hours sleep. She definitely drops when she's finished!

And we have been to one puppy party (hosted by our vet) and she is going again tomorrow evening too. She was petrified of the other four puppies but she was the youngest by four weeks and the smallest. I didn't pick her up or Molly coddle. Hopefully tomorrow she will be a bit braver. I'm taking her to random places like the car dealership because I had a service last week. She got picked up for fuss by men and women there. It's so good for her. She's great being cuddled.

I can't wait for two weeks when we can get out and go for some fun walks and meet more doggies. I'm lucky that I live next to a big open green park and I have a wooden walk a mile from me too. Plus organised puppy walks and we are well away.

[Joules]

Ouch! Why is being against their use 'having a closed mind' but being for their use not? Nowhere did I say I've never used a crate for welfare purposes. I've certainly helped get a terrified animal into one to be safely transported. Nor can I find anywhere my saying Honeysmum was being cruel either because I've made it clear I think she's a good owner. I think quite a few people on this and several other threads to do with housetraining have pointed out they never used crates and wouldn't. If you get their message too, that's fine. But this is a forum and surely you can cope with people giving advice, describing their own experience and having a view about animal welfare without that?

I am not getting into an argument with you no matter how much you seem to want it!  You have stated very clearly that you are against crates and are not going to waver.  That's fine - it's your view, but you have to respect the views of others (and there are many) who favour them without implying that they are compromising the welfare of their dog

Now, this is not a debate about the rights and wrongs of crates, so let's get back to trying to help the OP.     As Jane says, if you want to put your case, then start a new thread

[daw]

Sorry but NONE of my comments were directed specifically at you- whereas yours were at me. Hmm...ah, well.   

[Joules]

Sorry but NONE of my comments were directed specifically at you- whereas yours were at me. Hmm...ah, well.

Yes! That is because I am speaking as a Moderator! 

Now, please stop hijacking the thread