Aggression in 8 month old

[MrsD]

I got my show cocker when he was 9 weeks old. I met both parents and litter mates.
Quite early on he started showing resource guarding behaviour (he would eat everything and we would take things away from him, so I'm aware that our response may have been the root cause). We saw the vet and then a behaviourist they recommended. Things seemed to improve for a bit. We moved his crate, got a stair gate to stop him getting access to items he may want to guard and did lots of positive behaviour training.
However, now things appear to have got worse and I am struggling to see how I can save this. He has bitten both me and husband this weekend. He didn't break the skin but this is first time I have felt 'pressure', not just an air snap. On both occasions he has been what I can only describe as frenzied. The dog behaviour guy has suggested medication- dog Prozac essentially. He thinks he's a very nervous dog. I will try this, but wondered if anyone has any advice. I have 2 children, 11 and 13.  I can't allow my kids to be alone with him and they are not allowed to approach him. Not sure it's fair on them to keep trying. He's such a lovely dog most of the time, but so unpredictable. Has anyone used medication? Has anyone turned a situation like this around? Any advice would be welcome.

[bizzylizzy]

Hi and welcome.
I won’t offer advice on resource guarding as I know there are others on here who have first hand experience and are far better qualified to help you and I‘m sure they‘ll answer you before long.
I have to say though, that I‘d be very very wary of any dog behaviorist who recommends the use of medication to correct a behavioral  problem! I don‘t understand what he thinks it will achieve? Guarding can often be resolved with good training or at least be  managed. Whether you ultimately decide whether the latter is going to be possible with young children  is something you must eventually decide but I don‘t believe drugs are the answer to your dog‘s problem (but maybe the behaviourists?)
I‘m sorry if this wasn‘t the answer you were expecting and please don’t think I don‘t sympathise, but I would urge you to reconsider the use of medication at this stage.
I hope someone who can offer more constructive advice will be along soon!
Regards

[MrsD]

Thanks so much for responding, I'm grateful for your opinion. My initial response to medication was the same. I've not found much information about the pros/cons, but after a couple of weeks of deliberating (and a very concerning weekend) decided that a positive behaviour trainer knows better than me. If it's to treat his anxiety (that then may improve his behaviour), many many people do take medication and find it helpful I thought, so why not a dog? It would have to be prescribed by a vet so I will discuss with her first and have another health check before anything happens.

[bizzylizzy]

I agree that taking things out of his mouth might have exacerbated the problem but I think a lot of us have done the same thing at some point and if they‘re about to swallow something really dangerous you have little choice. My own dog (6)  guards certain objects and can get quite grumpy if I want to retrieve them but we‘re a retired couple living a pretty quiet life and therefore its easily managed but I do appreciate that your situation is not that easy and that its more urgent that you get it sorted. Since I joined this forum about 5 years ago, the subject has come quite often and I gather that Cockers do naturally have a tendency to guard,  they‘ve been bred for generations as hunting dogs and its therefore in their genes. They are also very sensitive as you‘ve probably already realized and therefore stress and anxiety often  gives rise to aggression as they have little other option as a release.
Until someone else on here with more experience responds, have a look through some of the older posts in the Behaviour and Training sections on here, -( it will at least reassure you that you’re not on your own!  )
There is  a book called „Mine“ by Jean Donaldson which you may also find interesting (I downloaded it as an  ebook) .
I hope you can find a solution, I do feel for you and it must be very distressing. Best of luck! ,

[Pearly]

Hi and welcome to COL

Having an anxious dog is not easy.  One that’s just hit the teenage phase can be a nightmare and your boy is right at that phase!   Here speaks the voice of experience....Pearl was an anxious dog.  It took me a long time (probably 5 years) to really work out what was going on and why.

There are lots of things missing from your note that we need before anyone can really try to help on the forum.  When he bit you, what was the trigger?  Did he have some form of contraband , did he provide warning - low slow tail wag, staring at you, lip curl, grumble, full on growl, attempted snap - before biting? 

Your behaviourist should have explored all this with you already.  I am truly surprised that they are recommending drugs for such a young dog.  He is, in effect, the equivalent of a 2.5 year old toddler and is likely having the same sort of tantrums that you see in supermarket aisles....before covid obviously  he will be testing boundaries and seeing how well he’s trained you at the moment!

Not only is he at that norty teenage phase but there are many other factors to consider too:

Cockers can go through a fearful phase and if your boy, as my girl was, is fear reactive it will manifest in the behaviour you have seen - though this may not be the case with your dog, we (COL) would need to see him to evaluate

Your boy is experiencing hormonal changes.  Think human teenager with the brain and experience of a two year old - it’s no wonder he’s a bit confused!

Teething.  Just when you think it’s over, out pop the wisdom teeth.  It’s worth checking his mouth to make sure he isn’t in pain.

Then we have hearing changes.  Dogs hearing (I’m told) doesn’t fully develop until 10 months old.  What he has been used to for 8 months is starting to sound different and if he’s a confused, fearful, anxious boy that must be bewildering.

Another thought is if he is in pain or has an underlying condition.  Has he been checked recently by the vet?



My best advice is to slow everything down for him.  Go right back to basics with training.  Lots of sit practice with positive praise (excited sounds from you, hands on affection and treats if you do) when he gets it right.  On lead and heel walking, lots of practice, again lots of praise when he gets it right.  Help him to understand what you want him to do.  However obedient he appears to be right now he has at least a year of consistent, persistent, training before anyone of us could claim we have a fully trained dog.

What sort of routine do you have with him?  Here, we have dogs that go out in to the garden for a run round in the morning, fed then ask to go back to their kennel (indoor kennels) they sleep for 2-3 hours.  Out at lunchtime for a run round and short training session then a slow afternoon while I’m at work or my husband is pottering in the shed.  Again, short blast round the garden (we do have an acre so it’s the equivalent of a walk) and some training, probably placeboards before settling down in an evening.  We have four cockers age 11 to 2 years.  My anxious girl died at the end of January but her routine became similar to the others.  I have posted quite a bit on here over the years and detailed her progress (Pearl) and that of Coral.  Your boy should be sleeping around 18 hours a day, any less and he is likely to be fractious just as a toddler would be.

Hope the above helps.  If you let us know which part of the country/world you are in, we may be able to recommend an ABPT Behaviourist or COL help locally.

Oh and you may want to stock up on wine and chocolate, it’s sort of a given with the ownership of a cocker 

Top advice from Bizzylizzy re the Mime book.  I will ask Archiebean to pop on to the forum as she has a resource guarded and can provide good advice and help.

It does get better, honestly - well done for reaching out on here,

Jayne

[MrsD]

Thanks for your responses. I'm really grateful for your time. I will certainly have a look through earlier posts and at the book you suggest bizzylizzy.

With regard to the incidents this weekend. Both involved me getting trapped and were very similar in nature. Saturday; I wanted to give him a bath. When I went to pick him up to put in bath he growled. He has previously appeared to be fine with having a bath. But he had an empty toilet roll. So presumably resource guarding this. But I was on wrong side of room and couldn't leave. Husband came up with treats. Started to throw treats and he bit him.
Sunday- I was looking in our under stairs cupboard for something. Dexter wanted to know what was happening and jumped over sofa to come and see me. He started licking the floor. I noticed his stance stiffen and he growled. My only exit was the direction he was stood. He bit me when I moved my hand. No resource that I could see other than perhaps a spillage I wasn't aware of and isn't there now?
Obvious learning on my half is don't get trapped.
Previous issues have been about bits of paper on the floor, a high value treat or anything he has found. We have reduced all this through management.
He's also now quite tricky in the garden. He doesn't want to come in, he's very loud and any attempt to coax, often end in aggression. He's particularly focused on one area of the back fence and has been biting chunks of the fence off. I have wondered if there is a hedgehog or something he can smell?? He did find a hedgehog a few weeks ago and went crazy more than I have ever seen. The hedgehog incident appeared to be the start of the increase in aggression. Probably didn't handle that well. It was quite late, he was going bonkers, neighbours were shouting at us to shut him up and the hedgehog was going to be hurt. We threw water at him to shock him into moving away. We really just didn't know what to do.

Forgot to say he does always growl before a reaction but any movement for example trying to retreat seems to move it to the next level.

I have an appointment with the vet tomorrow for a health check. Dexter's always had a bit of a dodgy tummy, that seems to get worse throughout the day. I have been before about this and was told nothing to worry about but I will ask again. Will ask about teeth too. I can't see anything. Now I am thinking about it he has been biting a (cold?) metal stopper, so maybe?
Routine- he's up about 6.30. He has 3 walks a day. Plus play and training. Usually asleep by 8, would like this to be later but can't keep him up. He has a crate but have recently given up on nights in crate. Goes in when we're out and during our meals.
My husband and I work full time, both from home with a little bit of out and about for visits. Very rarely on his own. Been tricky with national lockdown.
I'm in Herefordshire.
There are some things he does  really well. He goes to his crate if we walk near him with a plate. He seems to understand what we want (that we are having dinner and would like him in the crate). I really hope it's a case of misunderstanding each other and a bit of training (for us) can set us on the right track. I can't even imagine the alternative at the moment. 

[Pearly]

Oh my, you do have your hands full with Dexter - thank you for sharing the information, it all helps put a context on what’s happening in your home.  I’m so pleased you have come on to the forum, I know others with more experience than I have will also be along to help.

I would suggest keeping a lightweight house lead on him at all times and use it to lead him away from situations, when possible.  I’m told the book will really help with resource guarding which thankfully I’ve not needed to explore.

Some thoughts:  he is at least giving a warning.  Look for his tail movement, this will change before the growling starts and might allow you to divert his attention before he gets to that stage - it seems a short step to the next which is snapping and making contact.   If the tail wag is anything other than upright, relaxed wagging you’ll know he’s about to start and could be led away - with reassuring noises to his crate which should become a reward for good behaviour.  Tail down low, slow wagging is the unwanted behaviour you are looking for.

You clearly want to do the best for your boy and have my utmost respect for you all in doing your best to manage the situation.  It’s so easy to make the odd mistake and so blummin hard to get it right with cockers, we’ve all been there.  It’s just the odd one that goes on to develop unwanted traits.  I’m not sure who your behaviourist is but you may want to look for one that will give positive help rather than drugs, there is an association of Behaviourists with a number of qualified and very experienced trainers https://www.apbc.org.uk/find-an-apbc-member/ here.

I’ll message Archiebean as she has more experience than most with a resource-guarder.  It will be interesting to know when he started (age, trigger etc) and the lessons Emma has learned with him.

I’m in North Shropshire so not too far from you.

Jayne

[bizzylizzy]

Apologies! ! , the book MINE is by Jean Donaldson not Patricia McConnell (although she has also written some very informative and helpful  dog books, On the Other End of the Leash  for example)
I‘ve corrected my original post! sorry! 

[MrsD]

Thanks again both.
The lightweight lead is on (was on during the incident Sunday and always on in garden now).
I've not really noticed changes in tail movement. I'll try and look harder. It always seems to be quite out of the blue and he moves from relaxed and friendly to aggressive very quickly. When he appears more anxious, barking and jumpy for instance there has never been a problem. But perhaps this is because I am more alert to him then. I'm not unhappy with the positive behaviour person I am working with. Medication was not an immediate suggestion. He said he is concerned about the seemingly out of proportion reaction to something that is low value.
 If there is any way an escalation can be prevented I think it needs exploring. If he bites I think our limits as a family will be reached. If medication can prevent rehoming (which may be difficult) I'm not sure which would be worse for him? Or perhaps he would just do better in a different, more experienced home.
 The PB has asked me to visit the vet again to rule out any health issues. I'll update on vet visit later. Thanks again.

[phoenix]

Hello  . A quick word now and I’ll come back later. My beautiful  Bobby was very sensitive,super intelligent, loving, good with other dogs and a resource guarder. He was also medical detector for my other dog who had autoimmune problems.   I could take her to the vet when Bob told me to. I lived on the Behaviour forum which saved my sanity. With a lot of work he improved vastly.
I have a copy of ‘Mine’.   The insights into how dogs think and react are good reading. The detailed training step section is really aimed at a behaviourist. This is a revelation,  the tiny steps of modifying behaviour are a test of patience for the owner and and constant repetition for the dog.
 I didn’t fully improve him, we got modified into not leaving anything on the floor and having a strict system of getting him into the car last.  I never believed that eyes could glow red at the edges.  Our kids had moved on when we got him. I appreciate this is a huge issue and makes us sad that the curry bundle is not what we expected. You have to retrain all the people in your circle,
Personally   I think any dog breed can do this.  I have wondered if it’s a condition like autism.

If you want the book , send me a private message.

 Buy a cage type muzzle and make it a plaything with tasty smells or cream cheese on it. You may need it one day, or the vet might request it.  Many dogs wear them, especially  scavenging cockers.  Also it deters other people from coming to near! Using it for a few minutes a day makes it as normal as a collar on the neck.
It’s great you’ve joined the forum,  it’s a big step.
Patsy

[MrsD]

Thanks Patsy. It does feel better to know that I'm not the only one who has been through this, and its not all down to my lack of experience. Though it is pretty gutting to be in this position.
I've started reading 'mine' and looking at earlier similar posts. I definitely need to improve my body language 'reading'. It's interesting that you wondered if it was some sort of autistic trait, I had wondered if it was a type of epilepsy or even psychosis, when the eyes are glowing red he's like a different dog; one that's never met us before.
I've had a look at the cage muzzles. They look terrifying. Couldn't bring myself to buy one today, but food for thought and maybe a way to ensure safety, say when we have other kids visiting.
On another note, did see the vet earlier. At the moment we're going to look at his diet and check stools for anything that could be impacting behaviour. She's going to discuss medication with the positive behaviour trainer and get back to me later in the week. She's reassured me that it can be a positive treatment and that it doesn't have to be now or for life.

[Pearly]

Thanks Patsy. It does feel better to know that I'm not the only one who has been through this, and its not all down to my lack of experience. Though it is pretty gutting to be in this position.
I've started reading 'mine' and looking at earlier similar posts. I definitely need to improve my body language 'reading'. It's interesting that you wondered if it was some sort of autistic trait, I had wondered if it was a type of epilepsy or even psychosis, when the eyes are glowing red he's like a different dog; one that's never met us before.
I've had a look at the cage muzzles. They look terrifying. Couldn't bring myself to buy one today, but food for thought and maybe a way to ensure safety, say when we have other kids visiting.
On another note, did see the vet earlier. At the moment we're going to look at his diet and check stools for anything that could be impacting behaviour. She's going to discuss medication with the positive behaviour trainer and get back to me later in the week. She's reassured me that it can be a positive treatment and that it doesn't have to be now or for life.

That all sounds really positive.  I have be known to say on many occasions that I thought Pearl may be autistic, if there is such a thing with dogs.  She would get her self wound up into a real tizz over nothing.  Emma (Archiebean) is aware of Dexter and will come on to the forum to offer help and advice if she can.

The eyes thing is really interesting.  Does he make eye contact with you when he’s in this state or is it more that you’ve noticed his eyes being different?   I ask as Pearl could be quite defiant and would lower her head, put her front paws shoulder width apart as if she was about to take me on and start the low tail wag also stare at me under her eyelashes.  The whites of her eyes could be quite red at times, generally when she was stressed or tired.  This was usually last thing at night after I’d given her the command to come back in, often resulting in her “bogging off” mousing and me trying to catch her in my slippers and dressing gown no doubt much to my neighbours amiusement. 

So pleased your boy is ok health wise.

[MrsD]

Thanks.
Yes he does make eye contact, he gives me a really hard scary  stare.

Have managed a growl and aggression free day today. Did have some nightmare barking in the garden and no way would he come back inside the house for ages. I got shouted at by a neighbour for not disciplining my dog but hey, will take today as a win! 

[phoenix]

Bobby stared.
A retired policeman  friend was in our kitchen. Noticing Bobby staring at him, he stared back.  In his job , he said it was necessary to be able to out-stare surly teenagers. A point of honour,  and he didn’t want to be beaten by a dog. He was.   Bobby wasn’t being aggressive, just weird.

Once he nicked and guarded an open box of cat food. I couldn’t have him eat it, so I shoved a waste paper bin on his head. With the food removed, he was friendly and happy.

If Dexter is hard to put a lead on, use a slip lead which you drop over his nose when he looks up.   If you are nervous, wear a long sleeved jacket and leather gloves.  At least he gives you a warning growl.

Our member Top Barks, a qualified behaviourist from  York, specialised in cockers.  On a visit  to the vet , he met someone who was taking his problem cocker in to be euthanised after biting too much.  He arranged to adopt the dog, and managed to reform him.  He gave me good advice about finding a local  approved behaviourist.  One point about our dogs is to never get angry  with them .  My OH acted like a cave man at first,  which didn’t help, then opted out completely.  It was a difficult time.
If you eventually have to consider rehoming  due to family reasons, there are members here who will tell you the right organisations. You can never rehome an unpredictable pup privately, for the dogs sake.

In the garden , will he come to a special whistle and big treat if you have played this game before indoors. You need to break his fixation with something different.  I suspect he is a very bright dog and would love learning tricks at dog classes. You may be surprised at how differently he acts in a community hall lesson!

[bizzylizzy]

If I may just butt again, - I felt exactly the same about a muzzle but I had to train it as part of a training certificate thing I did last year. It isn‘t really as bad as it looks and can actually be quite useful if you have an injured dog etc so its a sensible thing to train anyway, before the  situation has already arisen and the dog is already stressed.
The main thing is to take it slowly, day by day.
Step 1 - leave it on the floor with a few treats inside so that he can go up to it in his own time and check it out.
Step 2 - hold it in your hand, with a few treats so that he has to go in with nose to get them, - praise him quietly when he does that.
Step 3 - Gently slip the cage over his nose while feeding him treats through the front. (The muzzle we have has a little removable cap which enables eating). Gradually lengthen the time you hold it on.
Step 4 - Gently fasten the muzzle, praise and treat, and then take it off after a few seconds.
You can  then very gradually build up the time.
Once he‘s accepted it, its a good practice to train it every now and again (do as I say and not, unfortunately, what I do!  ) so that it all just becomes normal.
Never go beyond what the dog is willing to do and don’t force it, you can practise it a couple of times a day but taking it slowly is the key!
Glad to see you‘re already getting advise re the guarding, hope this has helped, - best of luck!
x Jayne (the other one!  )