Author Topic: Aggression in 8 month old  (Read 3941 times)

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Offline MrsD

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2021, 10:22:15 AM »
Thanks for the advice re slip lead, that looks like a good idea.
When Dexter has been getting weird in the garden we have gone out to get him prepared wearing gardening gloves and long sleeves. We found it quite upsetting that we felt so vulnerable with our own dog. I have used the whistle and treat idea to bring him in and occasionally or eventually it works. Seems to depend on how heightened he is and if I can get his attention, which is tricky.

Husband has said he's not enjoying having Dexter, which I do understand and I think he's quite down about it all (as I am).  He will still walk him, but training and trying to save this is pretty much on me. Certainly a difficult time.
I was going to say I won't re-home without being sure that I have done what I can or we have reached our limits of being able to keep the family safe. But I am really torn as maybe adults with more time than us would be better able to meet his needs. Ahh!!
Whatever happens I wouldn't dream of re-homing without taking professional advice and checking on here too.
And thanks for the extra advice on muzzle Jayne, really helpful.


Offline phoenix

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2021, 07:10:59 PM »
In your vet check ,what was the opinion on the gut issue? I’m curious because in some conditions like my springer had, or IBD, there are malabsorption problems causing diarrhoea and stopping Vitamin B12 absorption.  This deficiency causes a wide variety of problems including disorientation and brain fog.  Is Dexter skinny, always hungry and eating poo?  What colour and consistency is his poo?  It’s it’s a pale cow pat,  please let me know .
Huskies have zinc deficiencies. It’s a little researched area.

Has the vet mentioned neutering?  We chose not to in case he became more nervous.  If you did regime Dexter, he would have to be neutered by the rescue.
Groomers and vets.....never a problem for us.
I did all the right things,  but it was occasionally worrying. I don’t see any harm in trying medication  if it doesn’t make him dopey.   I’ve known humans on Valium , Prozac and Ritalin . It helps them.   

The important bit is to be able let him play with your kids,  and maybe this would give you all a breathing space.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline MrsD

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2021, 10:15:03 PM »
The vet didn't give an opinion but has prescribed cobalaplex which appears to be a vitamin b12 and iron supplement. Was your Springer a resource guarder? Are you thinking it could be affecting behaviour? I need to take samples in this week and then may put him on a 'special' diet. Dexter is skinny, hungry and eats poo (and sticks, towels, his toys, anything).
Dexter's poo is brown and normal start of day. Then it's paste or jelly like, in a more mustardy hue (apologies for too much information).
Same here re neutering; vet and behaviourist said I should wait as less testosterone likely to increase nerves.
Still not heard from the vet, so medication not an option yet, but I don't think it should be ruled out.
I do think Covid times have not helped Dexter (or any young or nervous dog I imagine); no face to face training or puppy classes, visits to vetinary nurse to get used to vets cancelled, and the lack of socialization that goes with national lockdown has not been helpful.

Offline cazza

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2021, 06:29:46 AM »
So sorry to hear what you and Dexter are going through - sorry I have no advice to offer but have been reading your post and just wanted to say I am here to give you love and support  :luv: :bigarmhug:

Offline Shaun W

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2021, 08:29:33 AM »
Sorry to hear about your struggles, but this thread is helpful for me especially the bit where you talk about his poo, both doing and eating.
Alfie’s is the same. A good strong one then they go down hill and start forming up by evening again.
I spoke to the Vet Nurse, who said that as Spaniels are constantly on the go and the stomachs being bounced all over the place it isn’t unusual, especially as we had changed his food, which has helped a little.
Alfie will steal and eat socks, I found this out when he regurgitated one and then pulled one out of his throat, he will gobble whatever he has if he thinks I’ll take it off him and I am trying to get him to swap, for a piece of kibble, the local independent equine/dog place does free samples and he loves the large dog ones as they are biscuit size.  Luckily he hasn’t got protective yet. 

Offline phoenix

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2021, 11:17:38 AM »
That’s interesting that the vet is using B 12 supplement.   Why ?   Have they tested his B12 level and folates?  It points to them suspecting a small intestine infection (SID or old name SIBO) . Has he had antibiotics for this ?  The other reason is that it could possibly be Epi (exocrine pancreatic insufficiency) , for which their is a specific test. This was our problem.     Ask your vet to explain his /her thought process , because you are paying for their expertise and nice car.
In answer to your question she was never aggressive,  she was anxious and depressed when I adopted her.  Other dogs with this conditions can be aggressive, but that may be irrelevant.
If it is for suspected epi, the chosen. supplement  is wrong because it needs intrinsic factor.  Vets should initially give  an injection of pure B12, red stuff.  Then test again.

Back to cocker behaviour,  its not easy. Top Barks wrote his thesis on whether there was a link to genetic colours of affected dogs because the black and the golds got the blame,  but he found that to be wrong. Also he disputed the idea that it is a cocker problem . Since cockers  are such a large percentage of the pets,  the the number appears higher.   No doubt the spread of cockerpoos will produce similar health ideas, especially as they contain the problems of both breeds.
We can’t refer to kennel breeding lines on the forum,  but that is something the Cocker Club may follow as with other diseases.

Shaun,  with all due respect for a vet nurse,  I wouldn’t  trust their generalisations. 

I will start another thread on poo and guts!
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline MrsD

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2021, 09:28:12 PM »
Thanks for the replies and support.
Shaun I think that was what we were told; cockers and dodgy tummies go hand in hand. I changed Dexter's food as I was told he may do better with a higher quality food but that didn't make any difference. It sounds like Alfie will be fine, unfortunately I didn't know about the importance of swapping his 'finds' until it was too late.
I imagine the regurgitated sock was a bit of a shock. I tend to get  the items back from the other end, but never a whole sock!
And no Phoenix, no tests were done and no antibiotics. I just assumed that with persistent loose stools a vitamin boost might do him some good? Hopefully the vet will call tomorrow and I'll ask some more probing questions!  Thanks for the info.
Is Top barks linked to the forum? I keep hearing about him/her. Where can I read the thesis? I noticed a thread a few years old  saying that they thought that black and tan cockers appear to feature regularly in posts about resource guarding (and of course Dexter is a black and tan boy). It was said no reliable research had been done, so I would be interested to have a read.

Offline phoenix

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2021, 10:27:34 PM »
http://www.topbarksfordogs.co.uk/aboutme.htm

He has YouTube videos too.
I think it’s best if you contact him privately.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline cazza

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2021, 07:33:05 AM »
http://www.topbarksfordogs.co.uk/aboutme.htm

He has YouTube videos too.
I think it’s best if you contact him privately.

Thanks for the YouTube link to Mark - he was very active on the forum when I was first here with my first cocker  - we were doing the COAPE course around the same time. Mark continued and I really only did it for me

MrsD - I would def recommend contacting Mark (topbarks)

Offline Archie bean

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2021, 10:41:46 PM »
Hi. Sorry to hear your woes. I was in a similar position with my Archie. I’ve copied and pasted bellow a reply I previously posted here about his guarding as I’m pushed for time at the moment. But just wanted to say it is possible to come through it! Do also look back at my previous posts where you can see how bad things were and how far we have come!


It is really important to work out exactly what the root cause is so you can address it. Outside eyes can be useful in spotting things you might miss so bringing in an experienced trainer when it’s possible would be useful.
The only experience I have is with Archie so I'm no expert on the issue in broader terms. Archie didn't have a crate or a pen but I used (and still use) a baby gate to keep him out of harms way when necessary. It's easy to say (but not easy to do, especially when children are involved) but it's vital to try to avoid the situation arising in the first place. Nothing can be left lying around. Using a house line can also be useful to lead him away from sticky situations without going near the bitey end.  ;)  I know how hard it is to live with a guardy dog and anything that can keep the problem at bay while you work on sorting out the cause is a massive help.

The book Mine is an excellent place to start. I agree with not making an issue out of a guarding situation. My experience with Archie (who's root cause was generally nervousness and anxiety, although he would appear to be very full on friendly and confident - essentially over compensating for his issues) is that ANY kind of raised voice or trying to make him understand that what he was doing was unacceptable was absolutely the worst kind of approach. It re-inforced his worries and made him dig in and guard whatever he had even more. There was absolutely NO way I could remove an item from him without risking serious injury. He didn't back down ever and I learned the hard way that he was not bluffing when he threatened to bite me. My approach was actually counter-intuitive in that if he was guarding something I would gently praise him and tell him it was Ok, then walk away. We worked on him fetching things to swap for his favourite biscuit. "Fetch it for a biscuit" became the trigger to make him relax and eventually he learned to swap even the most prized object. It was all based on him learning to willingly GIVE me something I asked for, not me TAKING it from him.

He is now a really reformed character. He is the most loving, cuddly, gorgeous boy. That said, I know that he will always have that side to his character and I always keep an eye out for it. He rarely guards anything from me (but will occasionally push the boundaries if he is at my Mums house) but he does guard his own sick which is utterly charming of him!!!  >:(

It can be hard work but It is possible come out the other side of it.
 :bigarmhug:

Offline MrsD

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2021, 09:56:18 AM »
Thanks for the links and info.
Archie bean- thanks, it's so great to hear that you came through it and are now in a positive place with Archie's behaviour. I have been reading through some of your old posts and responses and found it really useful. There are certainly similarities; I think Dexter's root cause is nerves and anxiety and I absolutely know that I can not safety remove a guarded item.
To be honest we have done/are following many of the positive behaviour suggestions and things had been going well (although lots of new things to try too).  I think the weekend just bought it home that we have not overcome his aggressive behaviour, we've just been managing it and it really scared me. It could so easily have been my daughter trapped with him not me.
The vet and behaviourist have both said they don't think Dexter will ever be a totally reformed boy and that we will likely always need to manage it. They both think that it is his genetic disposition. So I will be trying medication. It's difficult to share this and I understand the strength of feeling about it, but I think it's necessary at least for a short time. I have not taken the decision lightly and I will continue with the positive behaviour trainer. I hope at least some of you will understand.

With regard to the dodgy tummy. The vet suggested a special diet but this would be all he could eat, so no treats either. I've declined this advice at the moment as I'm reluctant to stop treats as I need them to encourage positive behaviour. I will also be honest and say that financially this would be a struggle. Vets, behaviour specialists, all the helpful product suggestions and of course now medication, is not cheap.
Instead I will go with her second suggestion and change his diet to something more bland. I currently feed him a high meat content food as I thought he may be lacking nutrients as he was eating his own poo. If unsuccessful I'll reconsider again.



Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2021, 02:06:53 PM »
Please don’t feel you have to justify any the decisions you make!  you‘re doing the best you can to find a solution which will ensure your children are safe while trying to help your dog. I admit to not being over enthusiastic about the use of drugs in the beginning but having learned more of your situation, can quite see it your  line of thinking, but we‘re not here to make judgement in anycase, we‘re all just hoping to be able to help.
With regard to food, - have you considered trying raw? Not for everyone, I do realize, but a good mix should provide a balanced diet without the inclusion of all sorts of hidden additives that might just be causing problems and  price wise, I don‘t think you‘d find it any more expensive (I don‘t live in UK however, so don‘t hold me to that!  ;). Apart from a bedtime biscuit, Humphrey has a carb free diet and I give him extra vegetables to bulk up the raw food if necessary. Treats include bits of cooked meat, chicken or bits of cheese or carrot.
I‘ve no idea if it would make any difference but I do know from experience how additives in food can effect children’s behaviour (my niece suffered horrendous tantrums and fits back in the  80‘s before it was realized that some yellow food colouring was a trigger, it was subsequently banned in a lot of food stuffs)  so I  suppose its feasible that dogs are no different.
There is a section here on Raw food and also loads of advice and groups online, although don’t be surprised if your vet isn’t very supportive, that‘s not unusual 😉.Fingers crossed for you!

Offline Archie bean

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Re: Aggression in 8 month old
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2021, 02:35:31 PM »
I absolutely agree that you don’t need to justify the decisions you make - only you live in your shoes! It certainly sounds like you are making progress which is great. Yes, it is something that is, and always will be, managed. I always know that Archie has that trait and no matter how cuddly and cute and adorable he is I watch him like. a. hawk!!! I can see tiny signs that others absolutely miss. (I’m often told I’m overreacting when I take steps to divert him from something I can see is beginning to be a problem!) It has become normal for me though and incidents are INCREDIBLY rare now.  :banana:

Re his tummy. This is interesting as Archie often had tummy issues and it was along time before I realised he suffers from chronic colitis. I had him allergy tested and found the major problem was less and soya. I put him on a fish only diet (he’s wet fed so we use Fishmongers finest because it has no veg. Most veg in food seems to be peas!!). I had worked out early in that turkey had a dramatic effect on his behaviour but us;LH didn’t really link his food to his guarding issues. Now I come to think of it though I’m wondering if sorting out his diet and dodgy tummy had an influence on his behaviour.