Puppy Colours

[hawkins]

Sorry to get all technical. But.... are the colour combinationd fully understood when it come the genetics... what I really mean is are the alleles (gene types) for colours, marking, occurance of white understood. Do you (I mean breeders) know which alleles are dominant, recessive, codominant, is it a sinlge gene control or multiple, is it sex linked or purely autosomal? Would there be any way of finding out? For example iin the lab yellow, choclate and black if you can work out the parents genotype you can work out the probablity and frequency of the possilbe colour of pups and their possible or even known genotype.....

If the genotypr for colour etc were know it would take some of the 'guess' work out?

Sorry again for the obivious must be a question from a nerdy scientist... but this stuff really interests me.....

[kookie]

yes! I think so anyway.

[Jane S]

Sorry to get all technical. But.... are the colour combinationd fully understood when it come the genetics...

Yes colour genetics are pretty much understood in Cockers - it just gets complicated because of all the colour genes involved & all the possible permutations when certain colours are combined. Labrador breeders actually have a DNA test available so they can find out which recessive colours their dogs carry but I can't see such a test being available in Cockers for many years yet so it's down to knowledge of colour inheritance, careful study of pedigrees & a bit of educated guesswork (and even then you get surprises like Karen's Daisy )

Jane

[Magic Star]

That's right Emma - this was one of the points I was making really. There are some exceptions but generally those breeders who are striving to improve the health of the breed by eye testing/Optigen testing/hip scoring etc are not the ones who are mixing solids/partis on a regular basis (not in the UK anyway). It does seem that a lot of breeders who say that markings don't matter in a pet puppy also believe that health testing doesn't matter Not that long ago someone with a black pet bitch wanted to use our blue roan dog at stud - after explaining about the probability of mismarkings with such a combination, I asked about the bitch's eye test to be told "I don't need to do that as I'm only breeding pet puppies". Sadly this attitude is not that unusual

Jane

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I see what your saying now, thanks for explaining Jane

[tobycat]

Not that long ago someone with a black pet bitch wanted to use our blue roan dog at stud - after explaining about the probability of mismarkings with such a combination, I asked about the bitch's eye test to be told "I don't need to do that as I'm only breeding pet puppies".

Having had two 'pet' cockers...one with rage syndrome and hip and spinal problems, the other with severe hip dysplasia, hyperthyroidism and multi-ocular defects....I could batter people who have that attitude! ::

Scully has the most perfect temperament but she has so many health problems I would hate to see any dog go through what she has been through in her life regardless of whether they were pets or show dogs.

I don't know how you restrained yourself Jane

[Joelf]

Labrador breeders actually have a DNA test available so they can find out which recessive colours their dogs carry

Jane

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Sidney, my chcolate lab, had yellow paws & a white spot under his tail & on the inside of his back legs!!   The whole litter were mismarked like this; I believe it's called "splashing" & two of the puppies had yellow patches over their eyes.
Having said that he was a fantastic dog with a really super temperament but I know his breeder was rather nonplussed when the puppies were born!!

[shonajoy]

Rachel, if you take the *there's no need* argument to it's logical conclusion, one could aslo surmise that there's no need for us all to have pedigree dogs, given the amount of homeless dogs already

I'm 100% for proper testing and breeding, and while I agree breeders like this should be more informed, I wonder how it's purely their doman when problems result. Apparently Hamish for example,  is well bred, yet he suffers from a probably hereditary blood disorder, heart murmur, hernia, etc.

Edited to add - I think the way forward is to reintoduce dog licensing, and charge a realisic price for properly bred litters, therefore enabling breeders who are serious to actuall;y make a small profit. We need to outlaw and make illegal the other sort.

[Gilly]

Colour genetics is really fascinating  
I know that Buttons carries Liver, Blue & B&W and I thought there was a possibility she carried orange. Her litter sister has produced Blue, Orange & B&W.  I mated Buttons to the same dog and she only produced Blue & B&W. I knew for sure there would be no Liver as both dogs have to carry the gene and I picked a stud dog that didn't   But I was kind of surprised there were no orange.

[PennyB]

Rachel, if you take the *there's no need* argument to it's logical conclusion, one could aslo surmise that there's no need for us all to have pedigree dogs, given the amount of homeless dogs already

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I think the comment was more to do with irresponsible breeding that some do who just decide to do it because their dog's cute and then mate with the dog down the road sort of thing. There is no need for irresponsible breeding in my mind as if you are breeding pedigree dogs responsibly you do it properly and in theory to improve the breed, and not on a whim. There are enough puppies already from irresponsible breeders which is why there's no need for more.

[Cob-Web]

Rachel, if you take the *there's no need* argument to it's logical conclusion, one could aslo surmise that there's no need for us all to have pedigree dogs, given the amount of homeless dogs already

There is part of me which does think that - after all, showing dogs is a human enjoyment, and puppies are brought into the world purely to indulge that desire  

However, I know that the world is not perfect, and the show fraternity is not directly responsible for the 1000's of unwanted dogs every year    If, as a society, we ever reached a stage where commercial breeding and farming no longer exists, and there are STILL unwanted dogs - then I think my opinion about this may be clearer

[shonajoy]

Rachel, if you take the *there's no need* argument to it's logical conclusion, one could aslo surmise that there's no need for us all to have pedigree dogs, given the amount of homeless dogs already

[snapback]161494[/snapback]

I think the comment was more to do with irresponsible breeding that some do who just decide to do it because their dog's cute and then mate with the dog down the road sort of thing. There is no need for irresponsible breeding in my mind as if you are breeding pedigree dogs responsibly you do it properly and in theory to improve the breed, and not on a whim. There are enough puppies already from irresponsible breeders which is why there's no need for more.

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But there IS a market for *mismarked* puppies, or less than ideal breeding as has been shown time and time again. There are too few GOOD and responsible breeders, because not every breeder has altruistic motives. That's why I say licence it, charge a hefty amount, and put the farmers out of business.

Believe me, I see the dodgy side all the time at work, but how on earth will it be improved when the only way to make a profit is to do it BADLY, and not get proper prenatal care, eye tests, etc.

[AmandaA]

I didn't mean it to sound like so what if we all put any colour cocker together.
Its when some one comes on for some freindly advices they get jumped on .
All they were asking is what colour are they,
I agree with the mating soild to soild and eye testing but from time to time this can happen where you get a mismarked pup or one with a hip or eye problem nothing is 100%
Is it to hard for someone to say it nice or pm them not try and show them up as being a bad breeder.

[PennyB]

I agree with the mating soild to soild and eye testing but from time to time this can happen where you get a mismarked pup or one with a hip or eye problem nothing is 100%

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I agree, but (and am generalising here) surely its best to do your research, seek advice, may be find a mentor rather than just go out and breed any old dog to another in order to prevent this as far as possible.

[Jane S]

Its when some one comes on for some freindly advices they get jumped on .
All they were asking is what colour are they,

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I can't see that anyone has been jumped on - there has been a discussion about breeding practices with various views expressed but this what a discussion forum is all about If the OP doesn't agree with the views offered, then she's free to ignore them (as she has done before) but that doesn't mean that people who care deeply about the breed shouldn't express their views. As has been said before, many more people read this board than those who contribute to threads and if one person is made to think more carefully about breeding a litter as a result of reading this thread, then I think that's a very good thing!

Jane

[Gilly]

Shona, I have yet to meet someone who has bred the "perfect dog" as with humans no one is perfect, they all have their faults to some degree or another. All "reputable" breeders can do is strive for the very best, health wise and temperament.

I have been extremely lucky that I have had someone who has mentored me for a long time. With breeding you are always learning, I have only had one litter but I know what I will do different next time. I can sleep at night knowing I did everything I possibly could to breed good quality puppies  

I get really angry when people make assumptions about breeders   some of us actually care about the breed. There are many people who come to this forum for advice they aren't always going to like what is said, it's a fact of life. I am still struggling to comprehend why anyone in their right mind would breed to make mismarked puppies on purpose??