A bit of a heavy question

[Top Barks]

 Can any one help me with any info on the genetics for coluration in cockers?

[mononj]

http://www.stirling-ecs.org/general/color_genes.html

This site is quite readable.

I hope it helps.

Allison

[Jane S]

http://www.stirling-ecs.org/general/color_genes.html

This site is quite readable.

But sadly it's not totally accurate Do you want to know something specific Mark or just general stuff?

Jane

[Cob-Web]

Oh, Mark - that IS a heavy question 

I can't claim to fully understand it, but did study genetics, so if you get totally befuzzled give me a shout and I'll see if I can work through it step-by-step 

The site Allison has linked to is a good starting point, it has a lot less jargon that most 
Like a lot of dog related issues, there isn't only one opinion - so you just think you've got it and another website suggests something different  The only way to know for sure is to wait until the whole canine genome is mapped - until then, there are a number of different genetic solutions that could explain the colourings we see in dogs   

[Jane S]

I don't think it's a heavy question particularly Colour inheritance in Cockers is quite straightforward in theory but in practice, predicting colours can be tricky as it's not always possible to know what colour genes an individual Cocker actually carries. This is particularly true of Working Cockers who can carry many more colour genes than their show counterparts because solids & particolours have not been bred along separate lines as they have in show circles.

Edited to add this link to the KC's Canine Genetics site which is very good for getting a basic understanding of inherited characteristics including colour. There's an interactive exercise on Labrador colours, perhaps an easier breed to get to grips with than Cockers as there are only 3 colours (but the principles remain the same for Cockers)

[Top Barks]

Thanks everyone for the links and info.
have looked at the lab colouration and it seems quite staight forward.
I was just wondering as cocker colouration seems a lot more complex.
I guess mating the cocker will give you an idea of what genes it carries in the colours of the resulting litter.

[Rhona W]

So this is slightly off topic but:

There is a woman I meet when walking my dogs who has mated her two black labradors. She is hoping to have some golden puppies in the litter. Is this possible? She says it is, but I didn't think so. 
(Presumably she would know more than me, but I'm not sure she has done any research into it. She just mates her own two dogs. This is their second litter. Last one was born December 30th. This one due October 19th. The mother still looked like she hadn't recovered from the last lot to me.  )

[Jane S]

So this is slightly off topic but:

There is a woman I meet when walking my dogs who has mated her two black labradors. She is hoping to have some golden puppies in the litter. Is this possible? She says it is, but I didn't think so. 
(Presumably she would know more than me, but I'm not sure she has done any research into it. She just mates her own two dogs. This is their second litter. Last one was born December 30th. This one due October 19th. The mother still looked like she hadn't recovered from the last lot to me.  )

Yes you can get yellow puppies from two black parents as long as both parents carry the yellow gene. I suppose if this woman has had a litter before from the same parents, then she must know if they carry yellow or not. Don't envy her trying to find good homes for puppies over the Christmas period - there are already more than enough Lab pups being bred as it is

I guess mating the cocker will give you an idea of what genes it carries in the colours of the resulting litter.

That's right but the colour of the parents and the grandparents can also give you a good idea of what to expect eg a blue roan dog who has an orange roan Mum will definitely carry the orange gene so you know if you mate him to a blue roan bitch who also has an orange parent that roughly a quarter of the litter will be orange even though both parents are blue.

[Rhona W]

Yes you can get yellow puppies from two black parents as long as both parents carry the yellow gene. I suppose if this woman has had a litter before from the same parents, then she must know if they carry yellow or not. Don't envy her trying to find good homes for puppies over the Christmas period - there are already more than enough Lab pups being bred as it is

They had all back puppies before - about 9 of them I think.
That's a good point! I hadn't thought about it being Christmas time. My household is hyper enough at that time of year without adding a new puppy into the chaos! 
I wonder how many of them will end up as 'unwanted Christmas presents'. 
 

[Helen]

Thanks everyone for the links and info.
have looked at the lab colouration and it seems quite staight forward.
I was just wondering as cocker colouration seems a lot more complex.
I guess mating the cocker will give you an idea of what genes it carries in the colours of the resulting litter.

absolutely - jarv is the solid liver product of a solid black (with white chest flash)dam & liver and white (like penel's hattie) sire.  The liver genes in this match are strong - 3 solid liver, 2 liver and white, and 1 black in the litter.

having gone into his pedigree the solid liver is far more prevalent on dam's side.

[Cob-Web]

I don't think it's a heavy question particularly Colour inheritance in Cockers is quite straightforward in theory but in practice, predicting colours can be tricky as it's not always possible to know what colour genes an individual Cocker actually carries.

I must have been reading all the wrong websites then, Jane   

How many loci are there that influence the colour/markings of cockers ? The KC website example is for Labradors and only refers to two loci (E and B ), but I have read several different websites/books that propose a number of different loci for cockers - and various alleles at each resulting in the different combinations of colouring/marking 

I know that I still don't understand it fully, which is frustrating - but each time I read something else, it seems to confuse, rather than clarify, my understanding 

[Jane S]

The KC website example is for Labradors and only refers to two loci (E and B ), but I have read several different websites/books that propose a number of different loci for cockers -and various alleles at each resulting in the different combinations of colouring/marking 

You're misunderstanding me Rachel I posted the KC Genetics website as it provides an easy way for people to get to grips with basic colour inheritance in dogs using a breed which only has 3 colours. Of course more colours are involved in Cockers but once you understand the basics, you can apply that knowledge to Cockers where, yes, there are more colours at work but the general principles still apply. You can of course go into things far more deeply if that's your interest but my guess is that most people just want to understand the basics which is why I prefer to keep explanations simple unless more information is asked for. Basic colour inheritance in Cockers is straightforward enough - as you have studied genetics, then they should be a cinch for you Of course there are many & varied opinions about some of the finer points (eg whether there is a separate gene for roaning or not) but you need a basic understanding first, which is where the KC site comes in for all the other people who might be reading this and haven't studied genetics

[Qumok]

Been one of the things I've put on the long finger to learn about but got a few other links for you I'd bookmarked on my ramblings.

While digging the well of pedigree research on our own cockers I've decided it would probably be best to get ours mapped first before getting involved in the raw genetics.
(Either that or writing to see if the BBC will do a "Who do you think you are?" on our two.  )

The pedigree program I use has a genetics option and information here.

http://www.tenset.co.uk/doggen/index.html

Other links I found are...

http://www.ecsca.org/ecscoat.html

http://web.telia.com/~u33200262/article.htm

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html

http://www.cockerspanielinformation.com/colors/inheritance/

One of COL's members quadragant's site colours info (in french - google translate the link)

http://perso.orange.fr/quadragant/couleurs.htm

The colour genetics section on this nice swedish cocker site.

http://www.bluerunes.com/index2.htm

Thats it so far - if you crack it all, let post a primer for the rest of us please 

Happy reading.

Q.