tri colour or blue raon and tan

[Nicola]

Its a crazy world, I saw somewhere an advert on Silver Labradors 

I've seen these too, apparently they're popular in America. My friend who shows weimaraners sent me this link...

http://www.silverlabs.com/index.htm

[Cazzie]

Its a crazy world, I saw somewhere an advert on Silver Labradors 

I've seen these too, apparently they're popular in America. My friend who shows weimaraners sent me this link...

http://www.silverlabs.com/index.htm

  Whats the world coming to 

[Spaniel Girl]

With regard to my previous reply about blue roan and tan being a tri-colour, apart from the classification in Judy de Casenbroots book, the same classification of tri-colour is also in H.S.Lloyd's book, The Popular Cocker Spaniel page145 (4th edition), and in The Cocker Spaniel by V.A H Mathews (1950) page 175 she classes a blue roan and tan as a roan tri-colour.  So if they aren't now classed as a tri-colour, what is their colour classification? 

 A confused Rupert's mum.

[Jane S]

With regard to my previous reply about blue roan and tan being a tri-colour, apart from the classification in Judy de Casenbroots book, the same classification of tri-colour is also in H.S.Lloyd's book, The Popular Cocker Spaniel page145 (4th edition), and in The Cocker Spaniel by V.A H Mathews (1950) page 175 she classes a blue roan and tan as a roan tri-colour.  So if they aren't now classed as a tri-colour, what is their colour classification? 

Yes I have those very old books too but as I've already mentioned, using "tricolour" for any particolour Cocker with tan markings is too vague if you really want to know what colour that dog is. A blue roan and tan is just that, a blue roan and tan You know where you are when a dog is described as that instead of having to wonder whether that dog is one of several possible permutations. There is no official "classification" for Cocker colours - the KC have refused to limit registrations to a defined list and will register any colour description at all that a breeder chooses to use.

[Luvly]

 

[Caprilli]

Under the bottom line this is surely a question that needs to be answered in a scientific way. Genetically Roan is a totally different colour than Tri - meaning three colours including white. Genetically these colours are also clearly separated by other indicators than the colour of the coat - such as the solid coloured paw pads in the roan the the "and pink" coloured paw pads in a liver or black tri. Like Jane stated there are significant differences if you are doing pedigree research and one colour is dominant and the other recessive.
Whilst I was on the "puppy hunt" I came across one breeder who offered me an apricot and white male puppy............I had a job not to lecture him on his own breeds colours.
I am also a little bit confused about the definitions between lemon and orange or even red............
In Dalmatians and (don't laugh) guinea pigs an orange coloured dog/pig has a brown nose, eye rims, paw pads etc and lemon has the same in black. Where are the red once coming from? How do you differentiate between red and lemon? Just because of the difference in shades of colour? Or are there other differences in the Cocker Spaniel? Are they inherited in a different way? Where is the difference between golden and red? Is there genetically a difference?

Stephanie

[Jane S]

Whilst I was on the "puppy hunt" I came across one breeder who offered me an apricot and white male puppy............I had a job not to lecture him on his own breeds colours.

This is quite common with commercial breeders - I can think of several who register puppies as "apricot" and other fruity shades It's either due to ignorance of what the colours should be called or a deliberate sales tactic to make their puppies sound more appealing to the general public.

How do you differentiate between red and lemon? Just because of the difference in shades of colour? Or are there other differences in the Cocker Spaniel? Are they inherited in a different way? Where is the difference between golden and red? Is there genetically a difference?

The difference between gold and red is purely the shade of the coat. These colours are genetically the same but the shade is thought to be affected by other modifying genes which act on the main recessive colour gene ("ee" for either a red or a gold). Reds and golds can have black pigmentation (nose, footpads etc) or liver pigmentation (if the dog is "bb" ie 2 copies of the liver gene are present). A very pale gold with liver pigmentation would usually be called lemon.

If you need to ask any more questions about colour genes in Cockers, you might be better off starting a new thread so this one doesn't go too off topic. Thanks

[Caprilli]

Hello Jane,

thank you for that. No worries, I will not pester you with more colour genetics...... only one more to clarify matters further so I can sort the different colour names to the correct genetically codes in my head. If you mate a lemon (pale orange with brown nose and paw pads etc.) to a liver coloured dog will the resulting puppies be liver or black? I know that there are different variations possible BUT I am keeping it simple not to confuse matters.

Greetings,
Stephanie

[Jane S]

If you mate a lemon (pale orange with brown nose and paw pads etc.) to a liver coloured dog will the resulting puppies be liver or black? I know that there are different variations possible BUT I am keeping it simple not to confuse matters.

The answer depends on the genetic makeup of the dog. The lemon with liver nose etc is eebb but the liver dog could be EEbb or Eebb. If he's EE, then all the pups will be liver. If he's Ee, then lemon pups with liver pigmentation are possible as well as liver pups. Think that's right - it's a bit late in the day for me

[Caprilli]

Hi Jane,

I guess it was late but you answered my query anyway:) Thank you yet again!!!

Stephanie

[Bryning]

Its a crazy world, I saw somewhere an advert on Silver Labradors 

A silver lab is just a 'diluted' black lab BBdd, the dilution gene is found in quite a large number of breeds and once you've got it is relatively easy to breed on as it's a simple recessive.  In BC's we call it 'blue' and it has become a relatively common in both working and show lines with another blue/white made up this weekend at SWKA.

[Bryning]

on my puppy sammys kc certificate he is tri colour. howver he looks blue roan and tan to me. what do you think, i have reas somewhere that they are the same and in others says they are different, what do you think?

I also have a blue roan and tan but she was registered by her breeder as black, white and tan which I do not believe is technically correct because it gives no indication of the fact she IS roan.  As others have said this is important when researching pedigrees in the future.  I try to avoid the use of the word 'tricolour' in cockers personally because cockers are not all bi-coloured so the term 'tan-point' is really more accurate and can then refer to a particolour or solid.  One of my BC's was registered as a tricolour merle which I asked them to change as it gave no indication of his actual colour (he is chocolate merle and tan), when registering tricolour pups myself I always refer to their colour first e.g. black tri, blue tri, choc tri etc but my cockers are black and tan, blue roan and tan etc...

Sorry, waffled a bit there, just for a change 

[Bev_M]

Piper my last dog, was blue roan and tan but on his papers stated tri colour - mum was a blue roan, dad black and tan. Your puppy picture remind me of him, especially around the brown eyebrows

You have a very beautiful pup