A World of Questions: a Special Pup, a Retained Testicle, Showing...

[LinneaLand]

the preface:

hello! before i begin, i must ask that you pardon me for submitting such a long post. i have tried to be as descriptive as possible of our situation here, and i have included all of the big questions that i simply have not been able to find definitive answers to anywhere. thank you so much for taking the time to read through it and to guide us along the way.

the post:

okay, i have a bunch of questions and i'm not sure how to go about asking all of them. let's take a leap and see.

for starters, i want to be modest, but i don't think it's going to sound that way. well, let's go ahead anyway.

we have a red cocker pup who is now 6 1/2 months old. he comes from a very impressive line of champions, and he is an exceptionally beautiful dog. he also has a disposition that could win the world over. he is extremely charismatic, very smart, and he has been all too easy to train from day one. he is a very fast learner and excellent with tricks. he doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body, and he is simply wonderful with small children, all dogs and other people.

we live in a city, and the whole time we have had him, people have literally been stop us in the street to take pictures, marvel at him, and to tell us how special he is. many people have told us that he's the most beautiful cocker they've ever seen, and that he's the most beautiful dog in the area.

now, it's hard not to get a big head with all of this flattery. it's also not hard to start wondering if these people are right. i know he's a gorgeous boy, and i know just how charming he really is. i mean, is this normal? is it possible that they just have never seen a show-type cocker and that this is causing the happy stir? are they just fawning because he's so cute? or is it possible that we really do have something very special in our hands?

this is where the issue starts. if we do have something really, really special, we would feel like we were doing the wrong thing to overlook it.

now, my partner and i have been going back and forth over the discussion of neutering him. here's the thing. if we really do have an exceptional dog, that might not be such a great thing. at the same time, we didn't decide to get him because we were looking for a stud. in fact, i thought we would have to neuter him from the get-go because everyone where i'm from (in the states) says to spay and neuter your pets. i thought that the only dogs who should be left intact belong to reputable breeders.

i have no intention of doing anything that would be irresponsible on my part, which would include breeding from him if he's not up to par. if someone wanted to use him as a stud, we would have him get tested for whatever is necessary first. we would have no interest in making money off of him.

unfortunately, however, even if he is an exceptional dog, from everything we've been reading, i don't think we can ever breed from him.

this leads to our big problem. one of his testicles has not dropped. our breeder, who is considered highly reputable and comes from a family of breeders who have been breeding cockers for about 40 years, does not seem to think this is an issue. i have a lot of respect for her, but i'm not so sure she's right. she seems to think that he should not be neutered, even with the retained testicle. i know that removing just the retained testicle would be possible, but she doesn't think that's necessary either. on the other hand, our vets and all of the information i've read online seem to have a very definite opinion on the subject: it needs to be taken out because it could become cancerous later in life.

furthermore, we come upon the genetic question. everything online says that a dog with a retained testicle must be fixed because retained testicles are caused by a genetic trait that could be passed on to offspring.

what i'm interested in learning is how strong this trait really is. is it dominant? is it recessive? how does it work? would all of the puppies get it? if you don't know the information offhand, does anyone know where we could find the studies and statistics related to the carrying of this trait through genetic lines?

again, before anyone gets upset, if this would be a very bad idea, and if we were going to risk doing something completely wrong, we simply would not do it. i am just looking for information to have a better understanding of the situation for myself.

i don't believe that the owners of our pup's sisters from his litter have been informed that they should not breed. this has also led to some confusion on my part. wouldn't they also carry this gene? and if so, why would they not be told that they cannot be used for breeding purposes?

i realize that there are occasions in which a testicle will drop even between 6 months to a year of age. i'm not so sure if this is will be the case with our pup because i really can't find it. however, if this testicle were to drop on its own, would it still be a bad idea to have him father a litter of pups? or is that issue than discounted?

we continue to hear mixed information about dogs with a retained testicle not being allowed to participate in professional showing. some people are saying that they cannot participate, and some are saying that they can. what is the real story?

i have heard of people who have had a false testicle put in, but what is the purpose of it? wouldn't that be unethical? if so, couldn't that be easily traced anyway? these questions have been mulling around in my mind, and i don't know anyone who could answer them.

oh, and talking about his pedigree... i'm not an expert when it comes to any of these things, especially regarding the proper vocabulary to be used. (this is especially true because all of the information i have is in italian.) all of his parents, grandparents, etc. have had all of the genetic testing available done, and all of them have come up clear and healthy. his father has been titled (from the italian) young european champion 2007 (the breeder said all cockers, all colors); he is a close and direct descendant of other major champions, including the reigning agility champion of the entire country; and some of the other awards from some of the dogs that i just have in hand include: Ch. It. - Ch. Finlandese - Ch. Portoghese - Ch. Spagnolo - Ch. Lussemburgo - Ch. Estone - Ch. Lituano - Ch. Int. - Ch. Sociale - Ch. Rip. ; Giovane Promessa ENCI, Ch. Italiano, Internazionale, Monegasco, Riproduttore, Sociale ; Ch. S. Marino, Giovane promessa Enci ; Ch. San Marino ...and on and on and on.

again, since breeding topics can get very emotional, i want to make my position clear: i am only looking for information and expert advice. we are not looking to make money. we are definitely not looking to do something if it would mean making a big mistake. if we did not care about these things, we would just do whatever we wanted and not seek out the information we're asking for. we aren't like that. even if we were to use him for breeding, it would probably be limited to one or (maybe) two litters, most of whom would be going to friends and family. we wouldn't do it if it were a very bad thing. again, i have seriously considered the possibility that all of the compliments he gets have simply been screwing with our heads.  

if you have any information you could share with us, any advice, any words of experience, any resources to which you could direct us for information, etc., we would be greatly appreciative. again, thank you.

[wales07]

I'm am sure experienced people will be along soon to help.
I have recently had some info given to me by a very experienced breeder of cocker's with regard to the castrating. She told me that there has now been research published that shows the risk of cancer from a retained testicle is really very low but the same study showed that the risk of cancer from the anaesthetic causing cancers was actually about the same! The cancer  risk is one of older cocker's over about the age of 12(i think) when most cocker's are coming to the end of their lives anyway. I don't think that i would now have a dog with one testicle castrated as that school of thought is now out dated (although some vets don't seem to read recent research!)

[wrenside]

Sounds like you have a very beautiful chap there  Would love some photos! 

You're asking all the right questions, and hopefully you'll get some positive and constructive advice from those knowledgeable about undescended testicles etc.. on COL.

I have a few questions though:

Do you show your beautiful pup? or is he just a pet/companion dog?
If you don't show him (maybe because of the undescended testicle?) then he himself will never aquire any titles, which is ideally what you should be aiming to do to prove that he is of the correct standard and the best dog to be breeding from, as all of his prestigious predecessors have done before him. 

What are the other pups in the litter doing? Are they being successfully shown? Are they all healthy? Have all the male pups got only one descended testicle?
Finding out about what your pups siblings are up to will give you a good indication of whether or not their 'genetic line' is likely to be continued or not and to what standard.

So my advice is to find out everything about the litter, where the other pups have gone and what they're being used for, try and see as many of the champion dogs in your pups pedigree in the show ring to see what the standard is, and talk to your breeder about showing, health testing etc...

Finally, would love some photos   

Mary xxx

[spanielcrazy]

this is where the issue starts. if we do have something really, really special, we would feel like we were doing the wrong thing to overlook it.

Your breeder is the best person to answer this question. Since you are going back soon for grooming, I would discuss it with her. I am going to assume that you originally got your puppy as a pet and no mention was made of showing him (which is one area of competition where dogs can be evaluated for future breeding purposes) It does happen that puppies that are sold as pets do develop into show quality, so I would ask the breeder for their evaluation (and 6 1/2 months is very young; some lines are late bloomers and don't come into their full flower till adulthood)

Generally speaking, the puppies whose testicles make a late appearance  are the ones that you can feel the undescended one just above the groin. Your vet may be able to find it, or the breeder, in which case there may still be hope for it to descend

The genetics of it really isn't known, it's thought to be caused by multiple genes. It is also not known if it can be passed through the female lines, which is why no one has notified the female littermate owners. Not all of the male puppies from such a breeding will be affected, and it can skip generations http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110498003/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

?

we continue to hear mixed information about dogs with a retained testicle not being allowed to participate in professional showing. some people are saying that they cannot participate, and some are saying that they can. what is the real story?

i have heard of people who have had a false testicle put in, but what is the purpose of it? wouldn't that be unethical? if so, couldn't that be easily traced anyway? these questions have been mulling around in my mind, and i don't know anyone who could answer them.

As far as conformation showing goes, I don't know of anywhere that a male without both testicles descended is allowed. They can however compete in performance events such as field trials, agility, obedience, etc.

The only reason to have a false testicle put in is to cheat at showing, and no, it is not ethical!  And unfortunately it is not easily traced 

Talk these things over with your breeder, or perhaps go to some dog shows and just observe, or talk to someone objective.

(also, read my post in this thread on males: http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=35257.0) 

[Jane S]

We have a FAQ article about using a pet male at stud pinned to the top of this board which explains why it really isn't something a novice owner should consider, until they've gained a lot more experience and knowledge :

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=3420.0

Re undescended testicles, even though the exact mode of inheritance is not known, it really is not considered a good idea to ever breed from an affected dog. Back in the 60s/70s, unilateral cryptorchids (dogs with only one ) were bred from and we're still seeing the results today. Of course there is still time for your boy's missing testicle to drop but at his age, it becomes less likely and research does suggest that there is a correlation between late descending testicles and undescended ones (can't remember where I read this but will see if I can find a link)

[Tasha]

I have to be honest I am with Jane I would not breed from a dog with only one testicle and would as part of the course have him neutered.  Your vet should be able to tell you if the testicle will drop or not some do take a little more time but he'll also need to be evaluated as it can cause other health problems.

He does sound like a lovely chappie and I don't envy you the position the americans are in at the moment with the laws on dog ownership being changed so dramatically not to favour the dog owner anymore, good luck with your decision.

[LinneaLand]

thanks to all of you for your thoughtful replies.

i have just finished going through the links each of you included, in addition to all of the links found through those links. i haven't been able to get into the interscience page for a reason that seems to be related to cookies... i'll be working on that. it sounds like a good source, and i will not pass it over.

during our first meeting with the breeder, on the day the pups were born, i did communicate my interest in potentially learning to show, which would only happen if our pup made the grade in the first place. at the same time, our primary motivation for getting him had nothing to do with showing; he's simply our family first and foremost.

we were given the option to pick him out of the newborn litter straight away (because we had decided that we wanted our pup to keep his tail and knew that the rest were going to lose theirs -- docking is still legal here), so there was no telling if he was going to be pet quality or show quality. what i do know is that all of the litters are bred with the intention of producing show quality dogs (although i'm well aware that this does not guarantee that any of the puppies will actually grow to reach that goal). as has been pointed out, he's still very young, so it's still more or less impossible to say exactly what he will be like as a full grown adult.

i'm really a newbie when the topic turns to showing dogs. i'm not even 100% sure that i want to start showing. that works for now, especially since we don't even know if he will be okay for it. i'm the type that will only do something if i know that i'm going to really do it right. i didn't want to go and insist on a dog who was ready for showing because i just wanted a healthy, happy little pup. of course, with the exception of those people who were born into a family of professional show people or breeders, i imagine that everyone who gets into it has to start somewhere.

after all is said and done, i think our biggest question is whether or not to have him neutered. in any case, if we do fall on the side of neutering, we will continue to wait until he is at least a year or even a year and a half old just in case that elusive testicle does come down and we can avoid having him undergo the more invasive surgery that would otherwise be required. my hopes regarding this testicle are understandably limited, but they are still there. i have been able to feel the testicle very close to the right place in the past, and we did have a vet who felt it in a reasonably hopeful place. even though i can't feel it right now, i think it's moving around. fingers crossed.

i very much appreciated the idea shared by wales07 comparing the risks involved in keeping the testicle where it is versus the risks connected to the anesthetics. i will continue my investigation to find any information i can on the subject. if anyone else knows where that research may be found, i would love to be given the contact info/link(s)/studies/names of researchers, etc..

on the other hand, if ultimately we were to decide to have that testicle removed, we would still have to decide if the other one should be kept or removed as well. if we are never going to breed him, or if he isn't show quality in the first place because of the retained testicle (if it really doesn't come down), we might have nothing to lose by doing it. i have read about some of the coat issues that often spring up in fixed cockers, but if he is simply our beloved pet, i really don't mind the change in aesthetics or managing the potential extra grooming involved.

i think the advice suggesting that we use our breeder as a primary resource is wise. normally, i would think that i wouldn't really have to branch out for help from other sources. i have a lot of respect for her. the only catch, which isn't a small one, is that she's one of those very, very busy people... most of the time, even if we make an appointment, there is too much going on to put a lot of attention in our direction, or to answer most of our questions. so there have been a number of occasions in which i've left feeling like i didn't actually get all of the information i went there to get. she lives about an hour away, so it's not a quick skip over to her house, but we've gone about 10 times total. i have tried to tone down the ask-a-million-questions side of me, but i don't know that i have found a system for extra communication or undivided attention quite yet. it's especially hard when someone truly is very, very busy.

in any case, i will most certainly ask her what she thinks about his show or breeding potential.

our pup's health and long-term well-being are, by far, our priority. if there is potential for either showing or breeding, we just want to know that we're not letting it go to waste. when i think about it, the possibility that we would ever have him stud is unlikely. for something like that to happen (especially if the testicle comes in) we would have to have a whole lot of factors lining up, including requests from breeders that we trust, etc.

in summary, for now, i'm just interested in finding the genetic research related to retained testicles. then we will speak with our breeder to hear all of her opinions and advice. finally, we will have to make a decision regarding whether to have him neutered or not, and then if the testicle has not descended, whether to remove just that one or to have both done. whew!

by the way, for those of you who don't know, i am american, but i live in italy.

i was wondering if it would help any to post pictures of his dad, grand daddy, uncles, etc. (i saw lots of his relatives during my time there), which are included on his pedigree (i mean to show you the list) at least through his dad's side, but i don't know if that's helpful or not, or if it's even allowed because it's connected to our breeder's site. if you want to see some of that info or think it might be helpful in some way, and if it's okay to post, i will put in the links.

again, many thanks for everything from all of you. we are greatly appreciative of everything you've been contributing.

ah, and you wanted pictures of the little chap, didn't you?
(my external hard drive, where i keep all of my pictures, is having weird problems right now, so i am just including a couple of pics from the small selection i have available. he's at the woolly mammoth stage right now, and he has yet to go for his first big grooming, so i have decided to post one pre-woolly mammoth picture so you can see what's under all of that fur, and then one furry, fluffy one taken yesterday. (also, please forgive me for being, perhaps, the worst photographer known to humankind. how does anyone manage to take a picture of a puppy without a flash? puppies move. well, that's another thread....))  hmm...i hope i got the sizes right. let's see.

[spanielcrazy]

Aw, he's darling! 

Here are a couple of links to check out:

http://www.dogstuff.info/cryptorchidism.html

http://members.tripod.com/maddoguk/doghelp/testicle.htm

http://animalpetdoctor.homestead.com/reproduction2.html

[stuffster]

Hi

Just a quick one and I really dont want to rain on your parade because your little boy does look absolutely gorgeous. BUT... cockers do tend to attract a LOT of attention wherever you go, even if they are not show-winning quality. Our Purdey is a beloved family pet, but we know she was last of the litter to be picked because of her "unusual marking" - definitely not going to win any shows. Yet in certain circles, such as at a game fair recently, we had people drooling over her, taking photos etc. asking if we would be breeding from her. Now I know that she doesnt have what it takes to win prizes but it would be easy to let those comments go to our head, and my OH started seeing ££££ signs at the talk of puppies, but thank doG I have COL to fall back on to realise that there is already a glut of breeders and stud dogs with "good" genes to be passed on, and that really the world doesnt need more "unusually marked" cockers from Purdey!

I dont really know how common English Cockers are in Italy but could it be that they havent seen as many over there?

Sorry to take the shine off, and your boy IS beautiful = we'd love to see more pics.  It could be that he is very special, but you would have to prove him in the show ring to know if that was true or not.

[Jane S]

i very much appreciated the idea shared by wales07 comparing the risks involved in keeping the testicle where it is versus the risks connected to the anesthetics. i will continue my investigation to find any information i can on the subject. if anyone else knows where that research may be found, i would love to be given the contact info/link(s)/studies/names of researchers, etc..

The study wales07 mentioned was published in the Veterinary Record (a UK publication for vets) a few years ago but I don't think you will find any links which go into full detail about it. Here's a link to the study abstract but you can't download the full article unless you're a subscriber to the Veterinary Record :

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/150/13/408