Stuck in a vicious cycle...

[Geordietyke]

After over 8 weeks with us, Odie is STILL weeing and poohing in his crate when I disappear from sight.  I know I've posted about this many times and I've done ALL the suggestions in trying to deal with this behaviour but he still persists in doing it once or twice a day   I'm thinking now it is so ingrained in his mind to do this, that he can't stop.  BTW he is also super clingy with me as I'm at home all day with him.

Is there anything I can do to try and break this awfully stressful and time consuming cycle we are in? 

P.S.  He sleeps perfectly overnight in his crate/goes in and out throughout the day of his own accord and is fed in there too so he doesn't have a problem with crates - only being left alone    

So sorry to go on and on about this but I'm at the point where I dread having to leave him alone and I'm really not enjoying being a pupster mum at the moment

[coralee]

You've prolly been advised this before - so please ignore if you have.

Have you tried to make the crate much smaller by putting a partition in it?? Big enough for him to lay down and be comfy - small enough that he can't find a corner to poo in?? If he has less space - he's less likely to soil his sleeping area??

Did you try a DAP diffuser? (I got one for Harvey right at the very beginning, when he had terrible SA/clingyness, I'm not sure it had a massive impact, but I feel it made some)

The only thing I can advise is keep at it - I know it seems a mighty struggle right now - but Odie sounds like Harvey was a few weeks back - and then, all of a sudden, it clicked - we've only just got Harvey pretty much house-trained - and it took weeks and hours and hours in the garden to try and overcome - but then "click" it was there...keep on keeping on! 

[Anita D]

I would probably consult a dog behaviourist now.... it sounds like you are at your wits end. 

[Geordietyke]

Coralee, yes Odie sleeps at night in the crate with the divider.  This is fine for overnight but I feel if I have to leave him (whether it be 30 mins for school run or 2-3 hours) this would be cruel limiting his space for that length of time.   How old is your little one now?  I was kind of hoping that 8 weeks of doing the same hour after hour, day after day that he would have got it by now, am I being too hopeful at 16 weeks old??    I never tried a DAP as I've read mixed reviews on their usefulness and as they are expensive, didn't try!

It sounds so scary talking of using a behaviourist especially as he is typical, happy go lucky pup in all other respects. It's just the crate behaviour I'm not loving 

[SimonandMandy]

I am going to say exactly as I did last time - he is a baby and does not understand yet.  Stay patient, keep rewarding the good behaviour and ignore the bad - it really does pay off in the long term.  Look for patterns and go outside i.e. waking up, after meals etc

Remember Rome was not built in a day....

[Geordietyke]

I know exactly his toilet pattern - I've kept a diary for 8 weeks!  I KNOW when he is due to go and take him outside and wait (and wait) - he wees fine outside.  The second I put him in his crate he will poo.  I know this must be connected with SA because he is perfect when he is in his pen in the living room with me whilst I do my ironing every day.   

[coralee]

Odie is a week or so younger than Harvey - he really has been a test at times...we still have at times, poo in his pen when I get home (I work 4 hours a day outside and work from home the rest of the time.

I know you feel it'll be cruel - but, maybe, just try it once for a very limited time - if he's in there with a divider at night, it won't be much different for him for the 30 minute school run (just maybe try it for that particular run at the mo) as long as he has space to turn round, stand and lay down, and drink his water...you won't need to do it for ever - just as part of this particular training process.

I don't know if this'll help - but about half an hour before I leave the house I turn the radio on, I get the BEST treats (for Harvey it's hotdogs!) and I spend a good 20 mins with him playing and training - then, just before I leave, he goes out for a wee and poo (even if he doesn't need one) I say "do wee's (or poos) and give him a minute or so to think about it...then it's in his crate/pen, no fuss, with kong (stuffed with kibble and peanut butter), radio still on, and out, without a word (I try and make sure he's really stuck in to his kong before I go)

Re: DAP diffuser - I really can't testify whether it was a huge help or not - but I think it did calm Harvey from the manic SA symptoms down to just being clingy - then we worked on the clinginess...it's worth a try - try online for one, it might be cheaper than a pet shop.

I know this is hard - I have one large advantage for being in a routine with Harvey as I don't have children, and it must be really hard juggling it all.

The best advice I was given was to not react when coming in if a poo is there (sometimes it's really hard to not shout "for goodness sake" (or similar with lots of swear words!!) but I come in, ignore the smell!!!!   open his pen, let him out - no words - as soon as he's done wee or poo outside, he gets all the cuddles he wants. Try to be calm (even if you're feeling really frustrated) - as they really do pick up on mood, and of course, he has no idea why he's picking up frustrated vibes off of you, as opposed to manic cheery ones he's feeling when he sees you...it then becomes a bit of a vicious circle - he'll be nervous...he'll poo, he'll be even more nervous...you'll be frustrated, etc etc etc - try to be really strict with yourself and consistent - even when you want to screeam!

I promise you, he has got better - small steps yes, but he has got better...in a week, inc weekends, I'll have one or two poos now. (before it was poos wee's distruction of pen, etc all the time)

Most of all (and if you've got this far without falling asleep, I applaud you!!) big   to you

[supergirl]

 

[supergirl]

Hun, hang in there, he'll get it eventually.  While Roly didn't have the same problems you have, he was an olympic howler whenever I left the house.  At his worst I could be just 1 metre away with a child gate between us and Roly would be going nuts. I could sit in the car and hear him down the street. Living in a terrace house he must have woken the neighbours up regularly in the morning.  He never slept, so you couldn't sneak out while he was sleeping, even having a shower in the morning was a nightmare, but you just have to hang in there - no point getting frustrated or angry - just develop a thick skin and become immune to it, the calmer you are the calmer Odie will be too.  Roly did get better and you pup will too.

[bracken]

Could you leave him in a safe place instead of a crate. My Archie did this when we first got him at 10 months I was told he liked a crate and was use to it, but he messed when left even when I just popped out,so we ended up leaving him in the kitchen instead the messing stopped almost straight away 
Odie will be fine keep your chin up 

[Geordietyke]

Thank you so much for your supportive, kind words, advice and hugs it really means a lot to me  .   I know at the moment it's virtually impossible to believe it'll get better but so many people say it will so I must become a believer!

Coralee - my routine is exactly the same as yours before I leave him.  Even though I've 2 kids, I'm admin minded at heart (job before I became a non person ie. mother ) I stick to routines and have done from day 1.  I will try the DAP though as I've tried everything else!  My crate is huge so will have to think about what to use as a divider for it.

Bracken - I really wouldn't trust him uncrated anywhere as he bites and would chew anything in sight.  We have a new kitchen so can't keep him there loose!  I had him in a pen (the size nearly of a small kitchen) and he still poohed in that   

P.S.  Just arrived back this pm to poo ALL OVER his crate/bars/him again   I ignored his whines and frantic jumping about (in his poo) and sorted the kids first.  Then he was whisked to the sink, washed and pegged outside (not literally ) with a chain and stake to dry off!

[JaspersMum]

If it's any consolation Charlie was just the same, but now he's 11 months old, he's probably the best of the 4 for actually asking to go out for toileting rather than standing by the door and hoping someone notices  He (and you) will get there eventually 

[Geordietyke]

Thank you!  It's actually nice to hear that others have suffered this awful predicament too (although you wouldn't have thought it nice at the time  )  I keep reading about so many pups which 'are as good as gold' in the toileting department and I'm mega envious!    I've just had some really in-depth training advice from Coralee (and friend) so will put this in motion starting tomorrow.  Hopefully I'll have some good news/improvements to report in the next 5-7 days... fingers crossed! 

[Poppypuppy09]

Just wanted to say good luck....

[Geordietyke]

Thank you!  We'll need it!