CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: Niki on July 31, 2007, 03:22:53 PM
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We've just booked Swift in for a stint at boarding school, starting late August. I'm already knowing how much I'm going to miss her !!
I know, looking at the bigger picture, it's the right thing to do .. she's coming along nicely, just turned a yr old and had her spay op last week .. but we know we just don't have the full on time to put into her training. She's a cracking dog, and can't fault her as a pet in the slightest, but we got her with the intention of working her, therefore ...
She just needs a lot of 'fine-tuning', and serious work on ignoring the stop whistle when fur and feather are involved !
I'm just dreading being without her !!
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Aww I guess it's just like sending a child to school you'll miss her under your feet. :luv:
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Please excuse my stupid question ( :embarassed: ), but is it common in UK to send your dogs away to be trained by somebody else?
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Not stupid atall ! I don't think it's all that common .. I think a lot of people would like to do it, and equally there are lots who would much rather do it themselves.
I would love to be in a position where I felt I could dedicate enough time and effort to training Swift, and it must be immensely rewarding .. but looking at the bigger pictuer, our personal opinion and circumstances mean that this will be a great investment.
So loath as I am to be without her for any length of time, I am sure it will be worth it :D
Modified to add: and it's not like we haven't done any training with her, it's just certain aspects that we don't feel experienced enough to get right .. and it would be an awful shame for us to get things wrong and ruin her potential, so much better for us to acknowledge our limitations and ask for expert help.
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Thank you for your answer and I hope you didn't get offended by my question :blink:., I asked out of complite curiosity, because I've noticed other threads about it too.
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Ofcourse I wasn't offended Katina !
I bet the only other threads have been in the working section though ? I don't think it would be something a purely pet owner would be considering. As I said, as a pet, can't fault her atall, just needs work on the gundog side of things.
The trainer we're using is actually the guy that bred her, and has a very good reputation .. hard enough her going, but at least I know she'll be in very good hands :blink:
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Yes they've been here in the working section. I've trained all mine for the field (allthough they are all showtype), we've attended some training groups and I am very lucky to have a really good "mentor". I just couldn't bare the thought of sending them away, so they have to put up with me ( not that they ever complain :005: ).
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I will be picking up my little girl after two weeks away tomorrow.
For me it wasn't the fact that I don't have the time to train her, I don't have access to live game in a controlled area to be able to train her to flush and then stop.
She needed the live game to get her nose down and start hunting in a controlled manner.
However, the proof of the pudding will be when I have a demonstration when I pick her up tomorrow!!
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looks like stella will be going away at one point I was planning on doing a lot of training with her before i got to college but have recently got a full time job and just don't have the time now, time will tell...
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For me it wasn't the fact that I don't have the time to train her, I don't have access to live game in a controlled area to be able to train her to flush and then stop.
That's why Alfie is on his holidays at our trainer's place just now, I dropped him off today (and miss him SO much!) Charlie's got a huge rabbit pen plus all the new poults just put out in the pheasant pens so it'll be great for Alfie.
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For me it wasn't the fact that I don't have the time to train her, I don't have access to live game in a controlled area to be able to train her to flush and then stop.
That's why Alfie is on his holidays at our trainer's place just now, I dropped him off today (and miss him SO much!) Charlie's got a huge rabbit pen plus all the new poults just put out in the pheasant pens so it'll be great for Alfie.
Nic he'll be fine with CT ;) and I wish i could put fern in too ;) but i need to get my rear into gear and train her a bit more before I decide to hand her over ;) but if I was going to hand her over to anyone it would definately be CT ;)
You have done a brill job with all yours ;)
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For me it wasn't the fact that I don't have the time to train her, I don't have access to live game in a controlled area to be able to train her to flush and then stop.
That's why Alfie is on his holidays at our trainer's place just now, I dropped him off today (and miss him SO much!) Charlie's got a huge rabbit pen plus all the new poults just put out in the pheasant pens so it'll be great for Alfie.
Nic he'll be fine with CT ;) and I wish i could put fern in too ;) but i need to get my rear into gear and train her a bit more before I decide to hand her over ;) but if I was going to hand her over to anyone it would definately be CT ;)
You have done a brill job with all yours ;)
Aww thank you hun :-* I miss him so much already I'm like this :'( but it'll be really good for him and he'll have a great time :D
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Nic Fern is gonna miss him just as much on our camping trip ;) blimey just thought she might just have to go for a toyboy :005: (Rodaidh)
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For me it wasn't the fact that I don't have the time to train her, I don't have access to live game in a controlled area to be able to train her to flush and then stop.
That's why Alfie is on his holidays at our trainer's place just now, I dropped him off today (and miss him SO much!) Charlie's got a huge rabbit pen plus all the new poults just put out in the pheasant pens so it'll be great for Alfie.
awww, how long is he away for? Did you cry? Please tell me you cried then I won't feel so pathetic welling up at the thought of leaving mine ;) :005: :005:
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Gill Nicola is still crying now ;)
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That's why Alfie is on his holidays at our trainer's place just now, I dropped him off today (and miss him SO much!) Charlie's got a huge rabbit pen plus all the new poults just put out in the pheasant pens so it'll be great for Alfie.
awww, how long is he away for? Did you cry? Please tell me you cried then I won't feel so pathetic welling up at the thought of leaving mine ;) :005: :005:
Probably a couple of weeks... and yes I did! I managed to hold it together in front of Charlie then got in the car, drove down the driveway, pulled over and started wailing :'( :'( :005: I'm still a bit teary now as Cazza says... he's my boy and I miss him so much already... I need to pull myself together :005:
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:luv: aww poor nic.. :luv:
its like kids going off to scholl on their first day the mothers are wrecks and the kids cant wait to run off with their pals! :luv:
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Its funny how we worry about them but I know from experience that 5 mins after you have left they have forgotton all about you and are concentrating on having a great time with all the other dogs. I know that Goose loves the kennels and would probably stay there if he had his way as he has a ball. The last time he went to the kennels for around 3 weeks, he was looking terrific when I picked him up ;)
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No offence to those who do, I know there are big differences between working & non working owners, but it's not something I'd ever do with my dog.
Going with your dog is one thing, but leaving it to be trained by someone else is just something I'd never feel happy with :-\
Each to their own though ;)
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I know what you mean Jan, but sometime if the dog has very high hunting drive it is sometimes better to get them trained in a pen and with a trainer so that you can take them out in 'normal dog walking situations' and not be always worried about them doing a bolt. Mocha recall is good in the field by the river with no scent distractions but if I was to take him for a walk with the family in the woods I would have to watch him like a hawk or keep him on the lead because he would hunt and hunt and hunt into the next county given the chance. Hopefully I will be able to get mocha off to our local trainer for some training at the end of the summer, I will miss him although I may not miss the 6.30am walks :005:, then next session I will be able to take him out on a shoot, heres hoping :shades:
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I recognise my own limitations and whilst I think I've done a pretty good job with Alfie so far and I would love to say that I am experienced and knowledgable enough to teach him everything he needs to learn to be a working dog, I know that I'm not. There are elements which I am not as experienced and confident in training and rather than risk making a hash of it myself I'd much rather let a professional who Alfie and I both know and trust work with him and get it right first time. I would never in a miilion years leave him with someone I didn't know and who I hadn't seen 'in action' many times and had lessons with myself. Charlie is fab, he did after all also look after Rodaidh for his first 6 months! ;)
Also, I don't have the facilities of pheasant and rabbit pens on my doorstep either and can't really trek up to Perthshire every day for the next 2 weeks to start dogging in at 5am which makes training these things myself difficult on a purely practical level.
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I recognise my own limitations and whilst I think I've done a pretty good job with Alfie so far and I would love to say that I am experienced and knowledgable enough to teach him everything he needs to learn to be a working dog, I know that I'm not. There are elements which I am not as experienced and confident in training and rather than risk making a hash of it myself I'd much rather let a professional who Alfie and I both know and trust work with him and get it right first time. I would never in a miilion years leave him with someone I didn't know and who I hadn't seen 'in action' many times and had lessons with myself. Charlie is fab, he did after all also look after Rodaidh for his first 6 months! ;)
Also, I don't have the facilities of pheasant and rabbit pens on my doorstep either and can't really trek up to Perthshire every day for the next 2 weeks to start dogging in at 5am which makes training these things myself difficult on a purely practical level.
Nic you HAVE done brilliant with Alfie ;) As for him being with Charlie - well what can i say he is a fab person and knows his stuff and trains with positive methods - i wouldn't hesitate leaving Fern with him at all unlike some ;)
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I wouldnt hesitate in leaving my dogs for training either. The reason I have working dogs is to accompany me to do a job. These dogs are bred to do a job and have to be trained to a good standard and if not there is no point in having a working dog. As some people only work their dogs only a few months of the year and dont have the experience to advance their training sometimes it is a ness to get help and this includes them boarding at a training kennels to do so.
I have spend thousands on my dogs with buying them, training them, feeding them and so on so I really want my dogs to succeed in what they have been bred and bought to do. If I wanted soley a pet dog I wouldnt have bought 3 more I would have just stuck with Daisy.
Also as I live with a full time Gamekeeper we need well trained dogs to work throughout the year. I think it is comendable that anyone would want to advance their dog just like a child going on to learn at school and furthering their education at Uni. I dont know anyone who would not want an extremely well trained dog that could perform the tasks they have been bred to do. It makes me extremely proud to see my dogs out and about working/playing and being able to control them in a lot of different ways. ;)
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How much do you pay for your training I imagen its quite alot .
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Is it possible to obtain this kind training in a weekly/daily class environment, or even a residential arrangement in which you go along with your dog for intensive training, like some obedience schools? :huh:
Although I fully understand the need to have access to live game for training, and the fact that working dogs need expert training which some owners don't have the skills to deliver, it seems a shame that the only way of training up a good gundog is to send it away from the home environment to be trained by someone else, especially if the dog has two roles; working dog and pet :(
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How much do you pay for your training I imagen its quite alot .
It can vary. Individual lessons with a Pro trainer which includes you and your dog and are just over an hour cost around £25. Boarding a dog for training can cost from £75 per week. It is like anything in life if you want the best output you must have the best input ;)
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:-*
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Is it possible to obtain this kind training in a weekly/daily class environment, or even a residential arrangement in which you go along with your dog for intensive training, like some obedience schools? :huh:
Although I fully understand the need to have access to live game for training, and the fact that working dogs need expert training which some owners don't have the skills to deliver, it seems a shame that the only way of training up a good gundog is to send it away from the home environment to be trained by someone else, especially if the dog has two roles; working dog and pet :(
Dogs as you know do not think like us humans, it is also sometimes us that ruins a good dog due to lack of experience. It is possible to train your dogs in a class enviroment and at home, I have done it with 2 labs but some breeds especailly cockers are a totally different ball game and if not trained in the correct way it can ruin a potentially good dog. While the dog is away for training they are focused 100% on what they are doing and are taken out of the home enviroment away from loads of other distractions. It is not possible in some cases to have the dog focused all the time. In a kennel enviroment the dogs have a sharper outlook and pay attention more as less time is spent molley coddling them throughout the day. Not all gundogs are sent away for training, some are really far too intelligent for inexperienced handlers to bring on and need an expert to divert that intelligence into doing what they should be doing correctly.
It would be a different story if most of us had 30 years of training working cockers and I know with sweepie being my first and learning lots myself, I will certainly be able to train my next one better (with guidence from a Pro). I have stopped treating/thinking of my dogs like babies as their loyalties dont always lie 100% with you, as long as they are fed, and have other doggie/human company they dont even bat an eyelid.
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Is it possible to obtain this kind training in a weekly/daily class environment, or even a residential arrangement in which you go along with your dog for intensive training, like some obedience schools? :huh:
Although I fully understand the need to have access to live game for training, and the fact that working dogs need expert training which some owners don't have the skills to deliver, it seems a shame that the only way of training up a good gundog is to send it away from the home environment to be trained by someone else, especially if the dog has two roles; working dog and pet :(
I think some trainers do...although dont know about the residential bit, I think you'd have to live near the trainer.
Matt sent Dash away to be trained...and it was hard for him :-\ I had bought Ted for Matt 8 years ago and unfortunately Matt didn't do a very good job of training him, so Ted could never go on the shoot days and was only used for dogging in..which he loved, so Ted was happy ...but because of that Matt wanted Dash trained and it paid off...Dash is a great working cocker.
i suppose you could say that Matt should stick with labs whom are easier to train, but I got him into cockers and he loves them as much as me...well almost..Dash used to sleep with Matt until me and my groovy gang moved in with him ph34r
Matt is supposed to be getting another cocker pup in the next few months and I think he may be training this one himself now that he has more experience with having worked Dash ;)
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Just wanted to say, thanks for this thread, it as been really helpfull. You've all managed to articulate both sides of the argument that in my head I couldn't get past " But, I want her at home with meeeeeee" :lol:
Right now the OH wants to send Wherry to school but I'm not too keen on the idea for a number of reasons, not least missing her. After reading this, a lot of my worries have been answered but the two remaining reasons are:-
I think she will come back a different dog; like some of her cheekiness and playfullness will go and she'll come back a working 'machine' :shades:
They say if the dog is trained by a man, she will only listen to a man and vice versa. She will be trained by a man, I am not a man!
Anyone have any advice in relation to those two concerns? Thanks
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. After reading this, a lot of my worries have been answered but the two remaining reasons are:-
I think she will come back a different dog; like some of her cheekiness and playfullness will go and she'll come back a working 'machine' :shades:
They say if the dog is trained by a man, she will only listen to a man and vice versa. She will be trained by a man, I am not a man!
Definately not in Dashs' case ;) He came back as the same Dash, but obedient and grown up I suppose...which will happen trained or not..he still knows how to try it on tho...he still stands on his hind legs and does a funny thing with his front paws when he gets excited...goes mad and snaps at water coming out of a hose pipe..he still jumps up into Matts arms..even if Matt didin't ask him to ::)
I know Matt and I have split now, but i took Dash out for walks..he did as i asked..admittedly I didn't ask him to work as such, but he responded to me ;) ...but he was Matts dog and didn't take any notice of me while Matt was around ::) ..just like my dogs didn't take any notice of Matt while I was around :005:
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Is it possible to obtain this kind training in a weekly/daily class environment, or even a residential arrangement in which you go along with your dog for intensive training, like some obedience schools? :huh:
I don't know of any gundog training schools like this (and I have looked and asked around believe me). To get the kind of training and exposure Alfie is having now with me there I'd basically have to either live next door to the trainer or else stay at their house. Plus like I said, I know and trust Charlie and his methods and would rather Alfie was with him than both of us with someone I don't know.
What Cazzie says about taking a dog away from distractions etc. is also totally right. Her post sums it up really well :D
Nic you HAVE done brilliant with Alfie ;) As for him being with Charlie - well what can i say he is a fab person and knows his stuff and trains with positive methods - i wouldn't hesitate leaving Fern with him at all unlike some ;)
Thanks hun :-*
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Right now the OH wants to send Wherry to school but I'm not too keen on the idea for a number of reasons, not least missing her. After reading this, a lot of my worries have been answered but the two remaining reasons are:-
I think she will come back a different dog; like some of her cheekiness and playfullness will go and she'll come back a working 'machine' :shades:
They say if the dog is trained by a man, she will only listen to a man and vice versa. She will be trained by a man, I am not a man!
Anyone have any advice in relation to those two concerns? Thanks
I'm not a man either (last time I checked anyway :005:) and Alfie is being trained by one but I don't think this will have an effect. My Stepdad trains working springers but they still work perfectly well for me and my Mum as well. I also know that if Charlie thought that this would be an issue then he would not let me waste money by having Alfie stay with him ;)
On the 'machine' thing I have seen enough dogs which are in for training with Charlie to know that they are most definitely still cheeky, fun loving, normal dogs who still sometimes try it on but who on the whole worship their trainer and happily do what they are asked to do. This is why I would not send any of my dogs to a trainer who I do not know and trust though. Because I know Charlie's own dogs plus some of those he has in for training PLUS he is my Rodaidh's breeder and kept him for this first 6 months I am not worried about his methods or about him 'breaking' Alfie's spirit.
As for me I miss him terribly, this is the first time that I have been at home without him for 16 months but I really truly believe that I am dong the best thing for him which is the most important thing.
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If you don't mind my asking, how much does this cost? Just curious and do they do this for non-working dogs, ie obedience training.
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If you don't mind my asking, how much does this cost? Just curious and do they do this for non-working dogs, ie obedience training.
I have seen places advertised where you can send a pet dog to be trained in basic obedience, although I am suspicious of the training methods employed ph34r The positive dog trainers that I have read/know emphasis the relationship between the handler and the dog, and I don't know how this can be achieved if you send the dog somewhere else to be trained by someone else ;) There are also reports of dogs that have been sent to these places, are well behaved for a week or two after they come back, but then revert to the original behaviour because the handling/training is not maintained :-\
What appeals to me are the intensive training camps that you can go on with your dog...I would love to do one of these, if only I could get over my horror of camping - although I suspect I will end up going to YKC Training Camp in a year or two with lil'bit ::)
In the US they do it much better and run events in conference centres with hotel accommodation for dogs and owners :D
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These dogs are bred to do a job and have to be trained to a good standard and if not there is no point in having a working dog.
Exactly which is why I said there are differences between working dog owners & non working dog owners outlook on training.
I do understand though that those with working dogs have to put the "job" of the dog first, but for me the desire to work my dog wouldn't be enough to warrant this kind of regime. Billy is a pet, nothing more, but we are all different :D
While the dog is away for training they are focused 100% on what they are doing and are taken out of the home enviroment away from loads of other distractions. It is not possible in some cases to have the dog focused all the time. In a kennel enviroment the dogs have a sharper outlook and pay attention more as less time is spent molley coddling them throughout the day.
Now you see I know for an absolute fact that with Billy he would NOT focus better away from home. He's a real home lad and would be too home sick. He's a real softie :005:
Am not critising those of you who send their dogs away, am just saying it would never be for me, so guess I'll never have a working dog :005:
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If you don't mind my asking, how much does this cost? Just curious and do they do this for non-working dogs, ie obedience training.
I have seen places advertised where you can send a pet dog to be trained in basic obedience, although I am suspicious of the training methods employed ph34r The positive dog trainers that I have read/know emphasis the relationship between the handler and the dog, and I don't know how this can be achieved if you send the dog somewhere else to be trained by someone else ;) There are also reports of dogs that have been sent to these places, are well behaved for a week or two after they come back, but then revert to the original behaviour because the handling/training is not maintained :-\
What appeals to me are the intensive training camps that you can go on with your dog...I would love to do one of these, if only I could get over my horror of camping - although I suspect I will end up going to YKC Training Camp in a year or two with lil'bit ::)
In the US they do it much better and run events in conference centres with hotel accommodation for dogs and owners :D
Please don't get me wrong, I would never send mine away for training. I was just curious as to whether they did this for non-working dogs too and whether the price is comparable to say a normal dog training course where you take your dogs along each week.
I am satisfied with my dogs level of training and enjoy doing it with them, so wouldn't use one personally, but I can see why working dog owners would.
I think the idea of going along for a weeks worth of intensive training with your dog, is a good one though.
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If you don't mind my asking, how much does this cost? Just curious and do they do this for non-working dogs, ie obedience training.
It's £100 per week and Charlie will take in non working dogs if he has the time and space for them.
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While the dog is away for training they are focused 100% on what they are doing and are taken out of the home enviroment away from loads of other distractions. It is not possible in some cases to have the dog focused all the time. In a kennel enviroment the dogs have a sharper outlook and pay attention more as less time is spent molley coddling them throughout the day.
Now you see I know for an absolute fact that with Billy he would NOT focus better away from home. He's a real home lad and would be too home sick. He's a real softie :005:
See that's what you think but you take them away from their home and the influence of their owner for a few days and chances are you'll have a different dog. They are a lot less loyal than we like to think, Alfie is very spoiled and a real mummy's boy, he's very attached to me and he howled like a banshee when I left him yesterday but when I rang Charlie this morning he was out in the paddock charging around with a pack of other dogs happy as larry ::) ;)
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See that's what you think but you take them away from their home and the influence of their owner for a few days and chances are you'll have a different dog.
Nope! He misses his home :005:
He's not bad staying with my dad but kennels are an absolute no no. He refuses to eat & becomes withdrawn :'( It took him days to get back to his oldself again when we picked him up. This is why I'll never use kennels again as they just don't suit him, he's too soft ::).
Each dog is different though, we all know our dogs best :D
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See that's what you think but you take them away from their home and the influence of their owner for a few days and chances are you'll have a different dog.
But that's why I don't understand how this type of training can work - once the dog is back home, then they are going to be influenced by their owner and exposed to all those distractions again....... :huh:
I thought that one of the principles of modern dog training methods was based on the fact that dogs don't generalise, so they have to be taught the same thing in different places? :huh: Mark referred to it recently:
Some trainers reckon that you need to teach a behaviour in about twenty different locations before it is proofed.
Dogs do not generalise learning well which basically means the learning does not transfer easily from one location to another.
Then you have to train for the small matter of distractions which can be anything in everyday life.
I don't think you can compare the relationship that a working dog has with their their owner/handler to the one a "pet" dog does.....and I don't just mean fieldwork; even highly competitive agility dogs and their owners seem to relate differently; the dog will work for any experienced handler, not just their owner - which I suppose could be seen as being less loyal :-\
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If you don't mind my asking, how much does this cost? Just curious and do they do this for non-working dogs, ie obedience training.
It's £100 per week and Charlie will take in non working dogs if he has the time and space for them.
Wow, that is really reasonable, I had thought it would be much more than that. Hmmm...... holiday coming up in October, wonder if he'd take 3 of them, it will probably be as cheap as kennels and I would have 3 well behaved dogs when I get home. :005:
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But that's why I don't understand how this type of training can work - once the dog is back home, then they are going to be influenced by their owner and exposed to all those distractions again....... :huh:
I thought that one of the principles of modern dog training methods was based on the fact that dogs don't generalise, so they have to be taught the same thing in different places? :huh: Mark referred to it recently:
Some trainers reckon that you need to teach a behaviour in about twenty different locations before it is proofed.
Dogs do not generalise learning well which basically means the learning does not transfer easily from one location to another.
Then you have to train for the small matter of distractions which can be anything in everyday life.
I don't think you can compare the relationship that a working dog has with their their owner/handler to the one a "pet" dog does.....and I don't just mean fieldwork; even highly competitive agility dogs and their owners seem to relate differently; the dog will work for any experienced handler, not just their owner - which I suppose could be seen as being less loyal :-\
By the time they're home, if the training has been to a good enough level and the owner carries on the basis which has been laid out for them then the dog should continue to do what is asked of them. What you should get is a dog which has been exposed to different situations (live game in Alfie's case) and which has learned to focus on its handler and do what is asked regardless of what is going on around it. It is up to the owner to then work on this base that has been put in place for them and ensure that these standards are maintained when the dog comes home which should be easier because of the professional input they've had. This isn't a 'no work' option for lazy owners - you still have to put in the effort when your dog comes home but a good sound base should be there for you to work with and you will know what to do so that you do not potentially ruin a good dog.
When I referred to loyalty I didn't necessarily mean pet and working dogs, I meant dogs in general. Look at Tilly - she works but she is first and foremost a pet. She was owned and trained by someone else for the first 2 years of her life yet when people see her with me now they are always shocked to hear that I haven't had her all her life and she's been like that since day one. If this idea of 'oh no (s)he lives for me and will pine away for me' really were true there would be an awful lot of rescue dogs out there who are very miserable in there new homes which isn't the case. Dogs live in the here and now and adapt much better than people to new circumstances.
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See that's what you think but you take them away from their home and the influence of their owner for a few days and chances are you'll have a different dog.
But that's why I don't understand how this type of training can work - once the dog is back home, then they are going to be influenced by their owner and exposed to all those distractions again....... :huh:
I thought that one of the principles of modern dog training methods was based on the fact that dogs don't generalise, so they have to be taught the same thing in different places? :huh: Mark referred to it recently:
Some trainers reckon that you need to teach a behaviour in about twenty different locations before it is proofed.
Dogs do not generalise learning well which basically means the learning does not transfer easily from one location to another.
Then you have to train for the small matter of distractions which can be anything in everyday life.
I don't think you can compare the relationship that a working dog has with their their owner/handler to the one a "pet" dog does.....and I don't just mean fieldwork; even highly competitive agility dogs and their owners seem to relate differently; the dog will work for any experienced handler, not just their owner - which I suppose could be seen as being less loyal :-\
I think we can compare the relationship a working dog to a pet one has with their owners as ours are first and foremost pets, our working dogs have the beauty of being a pet and having the pleasure of doing what they have been bred to do at an extremely high standard. I chose working breeds so I can work them and divert their natural instincts into something positive. To watch one of my dogs work and to stop and look at me for instructions of what to do next is extremely rewarding it also shows that they are working with me as a team ;)
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each to their own i think ;)
tis a shame so many working cockers are out there now - there aren't enough shoots to go round to cater for each and every dog, so thank doG there are active pet homes for them who will keep them stimulated and happy. In fact 3 of the shoots that I would have been able to take Jarv on have scaled back this year, so we're unemployed.
I don't think a working cocker who doesn't work is deprived as long as it has an active life (and that includes training and things like agility and gun dog scurrys etc), and I have never considered counting the cost of training and feeding - ultimately my dog is a companion pet and not a tool.
not every working dog will work - and to be brutally honest a lot of non-working working cockers have a far more active and happy life than some working dogs who are effectively only employed 4 months of the year.
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See that's what you think but you take them away from their home and the influence of their owner for a few days and chances are you'll have a different dog.
But that's why I don't understand how this type of training can work - once the dog is back home, then they are going to be influenced by their owner and exposed to all those distractions again....... :huh:
Honestly it did work for Dash ;) I went with Matt to Pick him up and had a good long chat with the chap...I was putting my dissertation together at the time about operant conditioning in dogs ...anyhow he used all the good positive reward methods...he did say that Dash was extremely responsive which always helps and that not every dog can be trained this way and stay like it when it returned to its home ;)
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each to their own i think ;)
tis a shame so many working cockers are out there now - there aren't enough shoots to go round to cater for each and every dog, so thank doG there are active pet homes for them who will keep them stimulated and happy. In fact 3 of the shoots that I would have been able to take Jarv on have scaled back this year, so we're unemployed.
I don't think a working cocker who doesn't work is deprived as long as it has an active life (and that includes training and things like agility and gun dog scurrys etc), and I have never considered counting the cost of training and feeding - ultimately my dog is a companion pet and not a tool.
not every working dog will work - and to be brutally honest a lot of non-working working cockers have a far more active and happy life than some working dogs who are effectively only employed 4 months of the year.
Yeh each to their own. We cant really comment on each others situations can we till we have actually see them for ourselves ;) But at the end of the day we all have the dogs best interests at heart dont we ;)
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What one person sees as potential in a dog, another person may see as a problem and equally, one person may consider a dog to be spoilt through inadequate training, when another would be pleased with the progress the dog has made ;)
Everyone has very different relationships with their dogs - and we each *love* our dogs differently; but we all love them dearly :luv:
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What one person sees as potential in a dog, another person may see as a problem and equally, one person may consider a dog to be spoilt through inadequate training, when another would be pleased with the progress the dog has made ;)
Everyone has very different relationships with their dogs - and we each *love* our dogs differently; but we all love them dearly :luv:
Well I can vouch for that I have dogs from every end of the scale, one very spoilt bratt of a terrier >:( :luv:, 2 very well trained labs :angel: and a jekell and hyde working cocker :005: I love all my dogs the same but in different ways as they each have different needs and personalities. This camping trip im going on the terrier is being left behind as she is not well enough behaved ph34r :005:
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tis a shame so many working cockers are out there now - there aren't enough shoots to go round to cater for each and every dog, so thank doG there are active pet homes for them who will keep them stimulated and happy.
Couldn't agree more with the first part but unfortunately I don't think there are nearly enough 'active pet homes' for the workers that are out there - it's scary how many of them are bought by people who don't even know what a working cocker is, they just want a 'cocker spaniel' and go and get one with no research whatsoever :-\ >:(
But I am on my soapbox and off topic ph34r :005:
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My Scout has just come back from 'Boarding school' and she has come back a much calmer confident girl. She knew me instantaneously.
I was shown by her trainer what to do with her and told to take it slowly, keeping her at heel and using the stop whistle only. So that she can get used to me again and vice versa. We go back next week when he will show me what else she has done and he will teach me how to do it.
He has done wonders with her and I would have no hesitation in sending any of my dogs to school again.
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doesnt appeal to me at all, I work my dogs as a hobby and the training part of it is part of my hobby, if I couldnt train my dogs to the standard they need to be at then I would just not take them, they are my pets first and foremost and I would hate anyone else to train them for me. I am fully aware of all my limitations in all the training I do and that should be the incentive to work harder, I would get no satisfaction from someone commenting at a later date how well my dog worked when I didnt put the work in myself, just my opinion though. :blink:
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doesnt appeal to me at all, I work my dogs as a hobby and the training part of it is part of my hobby, if I couldnt train my dogs to the standard they need to be at then I would just not take them, they are my pets forst and foremost and I would hate anyone else to train them for me. I am fully aware of all my limitations in all the training I do and that should be the incentive to work harder, I would get to satisfaction from someone commenting at a later date how well my dog worked when I didnt put the work in myself, just my opinion though. :blink:
Freya, that sums it up for me too really - training my dogs is one of the main reasons I have them; and if that training means I can enjoy them in other ways (agility, for instance), then great, but if not, then so be it :D
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Wow, I haven't been on for a while, and am rather suprised at how this thread progressed ! :lol:
Thankyou for all your opinions, and particularly cazzie and nicola for lots of information and reassurance. I DO know we're doing the right thing, I know it'll be a great investment and she'll probably be much happier too, but I'm just gonna miss her so very much !
So I have to keep reassuring myself, it's the right thing to do, it'll be so worth it !
There's no way she'll lose her personality, but I do expect her to have matured quite a bit .. already looking forward to the results !
Less than 2 weeks before she goes .......
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Picked up Tigs about a week ago now and had a demo of her training on the day. She has her nose to the ground more now, which is what I wanted and she is lightening fast. Her general obedience had dropped off in the two weeks, but within 2 days I had it back.
Took her hunting at the weekend and she flushed two rabbits and stopped immediately on the whistle (unlike my terrier who caught one!!) and I am really pleased with her and David who trained her for two weeks.
I would like to make one point about training or not training your own dog.
Tigs is now 21 months old and from 9 weeks I have trained her. I trained her to sit and recall to whistle hand and voice. I have taught her directional retrieves, blind and seen. I have trained her to retrieve through and over water, to managed obstacles, under and over. She has been taught to stay, with me in sight and out of sight. I have trained her to gun shot which took patience and dedicated every day for 4 months and continues. She has been taught to ignore retrieves flying all around her and other dogs working and running about. She walks to heel on and off lead. She has been trained to watch me all the time and the best part of all this is that she loves and looks forward to every minute.
HOWEVER, the one thing that I have no access to is live game. She went away for two weeks specifically to introduce her to live game, to learn to recognise the scent and what to do once she encounters this. This is an invaluable lesson for a dog which you would like to take beating and picking up. She will never forget those two weeks and she had the time of her life. Since she has been back, her hunting has picked up a pace, her eyes shine and she quivers with anticipation. Why would anyone deny their dog this opportunity just because they "want to train the dog themselves" The acknowledgement that someone else can provide their dog with something that they can't is the starting point and that takes time to understand and accept.
I am glad I was able to give her this opportunity and I would reccommend it to anyone. :D
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Picked up Tigs about a week ago now and had a demo of her training on the day. She has her nose to the ground more now, which is what I wanted and she is lightening fast.
I would love Fern to have her blinking head up - it's constantly on the ground :-\
I am training Fern my self at the mo but I have been too soft and have gone back to basics and in the last week I have seen a vast improvement :D
(Too soft in - me saying sit more than once ph34r and letting her do it in her own time etc, just to clarify what I meant as too soft ;) )
Right off training again ;)
Enjoy Tigs and be proud of all the training you have done with her ;)
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I am a complete novice at this but two of the thing Mike said to me this week was that most of the people he trains don't put in the hardwork everyday and seem to think that 1 lesson a week is all it takes. I am taking our "Homework" very seriously, after all it only takes about half an hour a day at this stage and Lilly flakes out after as if she has run a marathon (much more enjoyable than walking for hours to tire her out).
The other is that he doesn't like having dogs residentially now, as he works very hard (the man is amazing so quiet and calm I thought Lilly had a crush on him after the first few minutes) to get them to a standard where they not only work well but are safe to have out there as However he said that time and time again the owners are knocking at the door complaining that there dog is unruly or not listening after 6 months and it would be more worth while having the owners in and not the dogs to make sure they don't slip back into lazy bad habits. Even when he shows the owners exactly how to achieve the same results they often go off home and do it their own sweet way and can't understand why all the training the have paid for doesn't work after the first few weeks.
But I supposed I am lucky that Mike is happy to spend a couple of hours a weekend with us and that he is only 45 minutes away and has access to everything we could possibly need.
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Absolutely right! If your dog is doing something you don't like, it is because you have let them do it.
It is a hard lesson to learn, but once learnt, you can see more clearly. Patience, perserverance and consistencey is the key, little and often is the way to go. It then becomes ingrained and second nature.
Having a dog that you know you can take to virtually any situation and you will still be in control is a liberating feeling (I know because I also have one that I messed up with!!)
Keep up the good work :lol:
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Tigs is now 21 months old and from 9 weeks I have trained her. I trained her to sit and recall to whistle hand and voice. I have taught her directional retrieves, blind and seen. I have trained her to retrieve through and over water, to managed obstacles, under and over. She has been taught to stay, with me in sight and out of sight. I have trained her to gun shot which took patience and dedicated every day for 4 months and continues. She has been taught to ignore retrieves flying all around her and other dogs working and running about. She walks to heel on and off lead. She has been trained to watch me all the time and the best part of all this is that she loves and looks forward to every minute.
HOWEVER, the one thing that I have no access to is live game. She went away for two weeks specifically to introduce her to live game, to learn to recognise the scent and what to do once she encounters this. This is an invaluable lesson for a dog which you would like to take beating and picking up. She will never forget those two weeks and she had the time of her life. Since she has been back, her hunting has picked up a pace, her eyes shine and she quivers with anticipation. Why would anyone deny their dog this opportunity just because they "want to train the dog themselves" The acknowledgement that someone else can provide their dog with something that they can't is the starting point and that takes time to understand and accept.
I am glad I was able to give her this opportunity and I would reccommend it to anyone. :D
Very well put and this is also exactly the situation I have with Alfie except he is 18 months just now - I have trained him to the best of my ability but I do not have access to live game but I will not deny him his chance to do what he loves to do (work) just because there is one thing that I can't teach him myself. For the sake of him spending a few weeks at the trainer's just now we will have years of working together in the future and I would not deny either him or myself that because I wasn't able to train absolutely everything myself.
I am going up to the trainer's to see him on Friday and we will assess if he's 'done' or if he needs another week up there. He is having a ball up there and I am receiving daily updates on him, the little sod probably doesn't want to come home :005:
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Very well put and this is also exactly the situation I have with Alfie except he is 18 months just now - I have trained him to the best of my ability but I do not have access to live game but I will not deny him his chance to do what he loves to do (work) just because there is one thing that I can't teach him myself. For the sake of him spending a few weeks at the trainer's just now we will have years of working together in the future and I would not deny either him or myself that because I wasn't able to train absolutely everything myself.
I am going up to the trainer's to see him on Friday and we will assess if he's 'done' or if he needs another week up there. He is having a ball up there and I am receiving daily updates on him, the little sod probably doesn't want to come home :005:
Nic you have done wonders with all the training you have done with all 3 of them ;)
And I'm repeating myself but I don't care - I wouldn't hesitate putting any of my dogs now or future dogs up to CT
(But I'm not prepared for him to do it all I want to get the basics done and am now woorking hard with madam ;) but the time will come when she will have to go up as I don't have access to live game either )
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but if you put all the work in then surely you want the satisfaction of knowing if someone comments that you have a well trained dog, that you did it yourself. If I was on a shoot and someone said I had a well trained dog I woudld be so chuffed, but if I had sent my dog away then I would have to say that someone else had trained my dog to have the control it had, again just me, and no matter how nice someone was I would not send my dogs away. If needs be I would rather spend 2 weeks staying in a tent nearby to the trainer who had access to the live game, go and train with them everyday and not have a holiday - then I could enjoy my dog - not having access to game is different from someone training your dog to have the control you lack - and thats not me saying I have great control at all, I have alot to work on, but I would want to do it. Most gundog owners do not have access to game, only game keepers or those with large kennels and rabbit pens have game to work on and alot of them manage just fine.
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If needs be I would rather spend 2 weeks staying in a tent nearby to the trainer who had access to the live game, go and train with them everyday and not have a holiday - then I could enjoy my dog -
I'd be the same
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I'm happy enough knowing that I've done the majority of it myself and knew when to step back and let someone more experienced take over some of it.
How about this then - I get a lot of pride and satisfaction from working Tilly and having people comment on how good she is yet I didn't do any of her training at all as I didn't get her until she was 2 - so am I wrong to feel proud of her because I didn't train her myself??! Should I feel guilty that I do feel satisfied and happy when someone comments on her (although I do always say that she is a rescue, it doesn't bother me and I don't really need the validation of people admiring my training skills, I don't work the dogs to make me look good. I'm just happy if someone likes my dogs and is nice enough to comment on it)
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but if you put all the work in then surely you want the satisfaction of knowing if someone comments that you have a well trained dog, that you did it yourself. If I was on a shoot and someone said I had a well trained dog I woudld be so chuffed, but if I had sent my dog away then I would have to say that someone else had trained my dog to have the control it had, again just me, and no matter how nice someone was I would not send my dogs away. If needs be I would rather spend 2 weeks staying in a tent nearby to the trainer who had access to the live game, go and train with them everyday and not have a holiday - then I could enjoy my dog - not having access to game is different from someone training your dog to have the control you lack - and thats not me saying I have great control at all, I have alot to work on, but I would want to do it. Most gundog owners do not have access to game, only game keepers or those with large kennels and rabbit pens have game to work on and alot of them manage just fine.
I agree with you Freya but its not always suitable in every case. I dont hink charlie would have space for 60 tents in his place for 6 months at a time, but totally see where you are coming from. We all have different ideas and standards and if sending a dog away for a couple of weeks to aid its training then I certainly would. This is the reason due to the lack of my experience in training gun dogs at the moment to a high standard I will rely on Pro trainers to help me in training my dogs. Until I reach the level where I dont need their help and can train a dog efficinetly enough to present at a shoot I will continue to extract their help. I want the very very best for my dogs and I want them to to fullfill their potential as thats why I have them. If they prove to be failures so what but at least I have tried my very very best to advance them into dogs that can work superbly. :D
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I'm happy enough knowing that I've done the majority of it myself and knew when to step back and let someone more experienced take over some of it.
How about his then - I get a lot of pride and satisfaction from working Tilly and having people comment on how good she is yet I didn't do any of her training at all as I didn't get her until she was 2 - so am I wrong to feel proud of her because I didn't train her myself??!
No not at all because if she is staying at a good standard then you are doing something (most things/everything) right, as we all know how quickly a good worker can get into bad hhabits. My point was the owners who are back after a few months or even weeks complaining that the dog doesn't work now and never accept that it is them doing it wrong...
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Here is another one for you ::) I bought Belle my working Lab, she was part trained and a year old. I bought her knowing very little about working a dog, now to advance her from part trained I needed the help of a good trainer on my behalf as if it had been left to me my Belle would have been waisted or not advanced to her full potential. I learned very quckly with the correct trainer but if I had come across a major problem with both her and I, I would have taken a step back and put her into residential training working along with me so that she could advance correctly and so not ruining a fabby dog. ;)
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I've just had a fantastic offer :D
Another gamekeeper has a pen and has said I can use it to train Fern and also he has said he'll watch me and tell me what I'm doing wrong but he won't train her or me
would you say that this is a good idea - or would I be better off putting her to a boarding place
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I've just had a fantastic offer :D
Another gamekeeper has a pen and has said I can use it to train Fern and also he has said he'll watch me and tell me what I'm doing wrong but he won't train her or me
would you say that this is a good idea - or would I be better off putting her to a boarding place
Brilliant idea...thats what Mike has said he will do with me and Lils. He will demonstrate and then show me, correct me and send me off to work on it. And if its not right its because i need more training rather than Lils.
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I've just had a fantastic offer :D
Another gamekeeper has a pen and has said I can use it to train Fern and also he has said he'll watch me and tell me what I'm doing wrong but he won't train her or me
would you say that this is a good idea - or would I be better off putting her to a boarding place
As long as he demonstrates to you what you should be doing and you've done your homework beforehand then that would be great. Can I come too with the wee man?! :shades:
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I've just had a fantastic offer :D
Another gamekeeper has a pen and has said I can use it to train Fern and also he has said he'll watch me and tell me what I'm doing wrong but he won't train her or me
would you say that this is a good idea - or would I be better off putting her to a boarding place
Cazza my dear friend :luv: What kind of pen does he have? No I wouldnt put her into residential training for this. Give Chaz a call and go and see him ;)
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but all this talk of full potential is a human thing, not a dog thing, they are your pets, their aim in life is to make you happy and vice versa - so its a gundog breed, doesnt mean it needs to be a field trial champion. If you purchased your dog as a working tool thats a different kettle of fish, all I am saying it that none of mine are tools, they are my buddies and they will reach their potential to my limits.
Why do we insist gundogs have to reach their potentials to be happy, loads of folks have St Bernards that have never seen snow, or saved someone from an avalanche. We train them to work because we want to work them. I train my dogs to do agility, would sending one of them away for training make them reach a higher grade, probably because my errors limit the way I run my dogs, would they reach their potential and qualify for Olympia with me, who knows, will it matter, not a jot, I would happily stay grade 2 forever as long as me and my dogs have fun. I have a 4 year old who would make the best worker of all my dogs, but he chases, I have tried everything and he has improved so much since I first got him, but I would rather not work him than send him away, but again, its a totally personal choice, I am simply saying what I would do.
Cazza, reckon you are on to a winner there, good luck and I hope all your hard work pays off.
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Cazza my dear friend :luv: What kind of pen does he have? No I wouldnt put her into residential training for this. Give Chaz a call and go and see him ;)
An empty one :005: - but he will put some sheep in for me, so that I can teach her not to chase them under a controlled enviroment, her being on lead to start and progressing to long line and you never no if I get it right we might even get the long line off but think that is way to over optimistic for a while at least ;) (as she has difficulty not wanting to chase cows, sheep well anything that moves really :-\ )
As long as he demonstrates to you what you should be doing and you've done your homework beforehand then that would be great. Can I come too with the wee man?! :shades:
No he won't demonstrate etc - hence that's where a one to one with CT comes in first, - this is more for me to practice daily as it's a lot nearer ;)
As to can you come with the wee man - of course you can ;) on the condition you correct me if you think I'm doing something wrong ;)
but all this talk of full potential is a human thing, not a dog thing, they are your pets, their aim in life is to make you happy and vice versa - so its a gundog breed, doesnt mean it needs to be a field trial champion. If you purchased your dog as a working tool thats a different kettle of fish, all I am saying it that none of mine are tools, they are my buddies and they will reach their potential to my limits.
Yeah I can totally see where you are coming from ;) As Fern is unlikely to go out on many shoots due to my working hours (every blinking Saturday, and can't always make week days cos of kids etc ) then I think I will train her myself but with the help of CT training classes and one 2 one ;) (to train me how to train her correctly)
Cazza, reckon you are on to a winner there, good luck and I hope all your hard work pays off.
Thanks I hope so too ;) I have been far to soft with the little >:D and have let her get away with far too much, but have gone back to basics since back from the camping trip and I am seeing a difference ;) (As in only asking her to sit or come once instead of letting her do her own thing - just to clarify what I mean by me being too soft on her ;) )
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but all this talk of full potential is a human thing, not a dog thing, they are your pets, their aim in life is to make you happy and vice versa - so its a gundog breed, doesnt mean it needs to be a field trial champion. If you purchased your dog as a working tool thats a different kettle of fish, all I am saying it that none of mine are tools, they are my buddies and they will reach their potential to my limits.
Why do we insist gundogs have to reach their potentials to be happy, loads of folks have St Bernards that have never seen snow, or saved someone from an avalanche. We train them to work because we want to work them. I train my dogs to do agility, would sending one of them away for training make them reach a higher grade, probably because my errors limit the way I run my dogs, would they reach their potential and qualify for Olympia with me, who knows, will it matter, not a jot, I would happily stay grade 2 forever as long as me and my dogs have fun. I have a 4 year old who would make the best worker of all my dogs, but he chases, I have tried everything and he has improved so much since I first got him, but I would rather not work him than send him away, but again, its a totally personal choice, I am simply saying what I would do.
Cazza, reckon you are on to a winner there, good luck and I hope all your hard work pays off.
really well put freya, couldn't agree with you more :D