CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => General Cocker Spaniel Discussion => Topic started by: Pammy on October 27, 2003, 05:38:10 PM
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Most of you know of the ongoing troubles we've had with Jasper and Buddy. Basically, Jasper is very jealous of Buddy and constantly feels threatened by him. Buddy on the other hand is well laid back and couldn't give a monkeys.
Buddy can't walk past me without Jasper jumps up and blocks him from me. Buddy however, does pinch and guard toys or chews from Jasp given half a chance.
Recently things have been getting worse and I am now suffering territorial( I think it is anyway) weeing in the house and barking. Meg's has been at home today and they have wee'd several times - after being out etc. If I leave them in the house in the kitchen together, I can guarantee I will come back to wee. Leave them seperated and nothing.
Out walking, Jasper has to be in front of Buddy if we take them together. If I take them out seperately, Jasper goes for Buddy, not in a really viscious way, but a way that tries to say, "I'm the boss", the second they are reunited.
Jasp has been in one room with the kids for 5 mins while Bud was just with me. He has been let out and went straight for Buddy and is now barking at his face. Buddy has a tennis ball. Ball removed and he's stopped barking. Both now lying with their heads down. :'(
When we go in the car, if they are tied in the back, Jasper barks none stop and Buddy mimics Jasper. If they are on their own, Buddy is a dream. He will just sit or lie down and not make a murmer. Even when we stop, he just sits and waits. Jasp on the other hand is incapable of relaxing. Even if I let him in the main body of the car, he has to be by me and will not rest. When we slow down or stop, he's up and whining/wimpering.
The oddest thing though is bedtime, 99% of the time, they go into their crate together and sleep very happily together :- There are times when they cuddle up on the sofa and look so sweet. Jasper has his evening routine of cuddles - ie he goes to Nige to sit on his face and nibble his nose ;D.
We really are at our wits end :'(. As much as we adore both our boys, we can't go on llike this much longer :'(. Buddy is a pure joy, so easy to live with Jasper is so hyper we just don't get much enjoyment from him at present and I can't believe he is happy either. I was about to order a DAP diffuser, do you think it will help? Any other pearls of wisdom very gratefully received.
Sorry for the war and peace - it just started coming and wouldn't stop :'(
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I really feel for you Pammy and can fully understand why you're at your wits end :-
It definately sounds like Jasper has 'the' problem...that problem being that he cannot except sharing you and wanting to be 'top dog' :-
I have no answer to your dilemma....hope someone can come along and give you some ideas to ease the situation.
Sounds like you need a hug in the meantime ;)
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Sounds like you need a hug in the meantime ;)
Do I - thanks :)
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Do I - thanks :)
I've got a bottle of wine here needs sharing too Pammy ;)
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Sorry to hear about your problems Pammy :'( Now I know I've been very lucky that Vegas and Dallas get on well for the most part - Vegas gets growly with Dallas when there is food and/or toys involved but I find that relatively easy to control. I think the DAP may help as it may make Jasper feel more secure - of course, there are never any guarantees but I think anything would be worth a try :- I have a spare diffuser you can have to try it out if you like - if it works, great, keep it and if not you can just send it back. Really hope there is a happy ending to this :-
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Gill - will IM you - but thanks for the offer of the DAP - It would be great to try it. I'm hoping it will have a good effect on them both. Make Buddy less proprietorial over food and toys and Jasper just better all round by feeling more secure.
Thanks :)
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Hi Pammy
Sorry to hear of the troubles you are having with your boys! I can't offer any advise really other than, maybe a behaviourist might be able to offer some advise and help, although I know this can be costly. I have used one in the past with our rescue GSD she suffered terribley from seperation anxiety, although it wasn't an overnight cure, with being told how to deal with it and the reasoning behind it along with a few tips, it did help in the longterm, so its just another avenue for you to consider. There is a fab lady on TV of a Sunday afternoon, she works on all kinds of animals, and its to do with the body and the tensions, in the body that can affect a dogs behviour, I know this sounds a bit "hippiesh" but the results she has are AMAZING. I can't think of her name, but, she is working on that Celebrity Dog School at the moment. If things don't improce with the diffuser, could be worth a try, another good pet behaviourist is Peter Neville, he has a book out, think my mum has it, she may be able to lend it to you, if you like.
I hope you can get things settled down. It must be very frustrating for you. Sorry smilies arent working.
((((((hugs for you))))))
Emma and Indie
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Hi Pammy
Sorry to hear of the troubles you are having with your boys! I can't offer any advise really other than, maybe a behaviourist might be able to offer some advise and help, although I know this can be costly. I have used one in the past with our rescue GSD she suffered terribley from seperation anxiety, although it wasn't an overnight cure, with being told how to deal with it and the reasoning behind it along with a few tips, it did help in the longterm, so its just another avenue for you to consider. There is a fab lady on TV of a Sunday afternoon, she works on all kinds of animals, and its to do with the body and the tensions, in the body that can affect a dogs behviour, I know this sounds a bit "hippiesh" but the results she has are AMAZING. I can't think of her name, but, she is working on that Celebrity Dog School at the moment. If things don't improce with the diffuser, could be worth a try, another good pet behaviourist is Peter Nevis, he has a book out, think my mum has it, she may be able to lend it to you, if you like.
I hope you can get things settled down. It must be very frustrating for you. Sorry smilies arent working.
((((((hugs for you))))))
Emma and Indie
Its Sarah Fisher (married to the guy from Buffy) who does the TTouch (Tellington Touch)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tilleyfarm/HomePage.html (http://www3.sympatico.ca/tilleyfarm/HomePage.html)
There are a number of practitioners on there. A friend of mine is a practitioner in training and of course swears by it (but she uses it a lot when she works as a volunteer for a rescue)
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Pammy i'm so sorry to hear that your having to go throught his difficult time with your boys :'(
I haven't got an answer for you but just wanted to offer my support in whatever route you take so that your all happier ;)
Gilly
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:)Aww thanx Penny, couldn't think of her name ::) She is absolutely fantastic :) Just had a look at that site too, its great :)
Emma and Indie
Here is a link to Peter Neville's site
http://www.ask.co.uk/ix.asp?q=Peter+Nevill...%2Euk%2F&adurl= (http://www.ask.co.uk/ix.asp?q=Peter+Neville&ac=none&xx=0&qid=F0A3DBF69CA1C94D9B6F28E3EE561F32&p=1&s=1&sp=ix&fn=tuk&b=0&fo=2&r=10&io=1&fp=1&fr=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Epets%2Ef9%2Eco%2Euk%2F&adurl=)
Hope this helps
Emma and Indie
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oh Pammy :'( :'( :'(
I'm afraid I don't have any pearls of wisdom - but I just wanted to offer my hugs and support for you all :) :-* :-*
I hope your household settles down soon.
Kelly
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I've posted before that my parents had two males who were fine for at a couple of years and then seriously fell out to the point that they had to be kept separate for life - they fought to the death if they did met by accident. If it's any relief, yours don't sound half as bad as my parents' boys were!
I've forgotton how old you boys are - can you remind me? All hell broke out in our house when they were 2 and 4/5, ish. In our case, it was the younger dog wanting top position from an older dog who had no intention of giving it up. Both dogs were the mildest dogs to other dogs outside the house - just not to each other!
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Thanks for the support guys - it really helps.
Jasper was three at the end of August and Buddy was 2 at the beginning of May. I know a lot of this is my fault as I got Buddy too soon, but hindsight is a wonderful thing :- and it's why I now recommend waiting at least 18 months before getting another. But at the time, there was absolutely nothing to suggest Jasper would be this way. He had always been great with other dogs and was fab with Buddy and his siblings when he went to see them. We wanted to check he would be OK before we brought Buddy home.
They are now both lying on the two armchairs behind me as good as gold and have had a good evening :)
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Hi Pammy
:( Just wanted to say sorry to hear about the problems you're having with your boys. Hope you find the answer and things settle down soon. No solutions here, as I'm not yet lucky enough to have two cockers. ;)
Shirley :)
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Hi Pam
Just wanted to add my sympathies too - there are never any easy answers for these situations are there? I can't think of anything to help that you haven't already tried or that someone hasn't already suggested, sorry. Don't blame yourself - these things happen & can happen even when there is a bigger age gap (we had 2 bitches who fell out & there was a 4 year age gap between them!)
Hope things get better for you anyway :)
Jane
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Pammy
I'm so sorry you're going through this. We send you a big hug and hope that it settles down soon.
Let us know how you get on with them.
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Just seen this Pammy. Sorry to hear that things aren't going well :( Hope that maybe the DAP difuser will help with Jasper.
Thinking about you and hoping things get better soon :)
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Awww!!! i hope you manage to get your two boys settled Pammy.
it must be realy upsetting for you. :(
( Big ((( hugs ))) from me too.
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Hi Pam, just seen this too :)
It's difficult to know what to suggest really as we all know you're good at dog- behavioural issues and you'd be one of the first to answer if anyone else posted a similar type of problem.
I suppose I'm quite lucky with Daisy and Jazz as they usually get on very well together, and I've learnt how to avoid the situations in which they become a bit testy with each other. It's tricky to know what to say without knowing the ins and outs in your case, i.e. what you've tried and what you've found works/does not. I think most dogs that live and grow up together display some kind of share anxiety to some degree - which is what it is, really - I really hope that you can find some way of discouraging Jasper's unwanted behaviour :)
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A HUGE thanks for all the support guys - it really does help :D
They've been good boys today, mostly ;D no puddles, Jasper's only tried "humping" Bud a few times since I've been home and is at the mo trying to dig his way to Oz through an armchair :-. He is a dog of very little brain ;D
I'll give the diffuser a good go and let you know how that goes - fingers are crossed ;D
Although I've focussed mainly on Jasp, coz he's the one that causes us most grief, I'm hoping the DAP will also stop Buddy being so proprietorial over things. We can but hope ;D
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As Jane has said, an 18 month age gap does not always ensure harmony - my parents' dogs also had more than a couple of years difference between them. They also got on fine with little sign of trouble until the younger one actually challenged the older - up to that point the older had been top dog with only the very occassional growl. The problem was that neither dog would back down once they started.
I honestly think it is largely down to luck how dogs get on with other. Most dogs living together get on fine all their lives, but now and then, you find a couple who just don't, whatever you have done - just like people really!
Have you considered neutering one (or even both) of them? I'm aware that this can be very hit and miss in terms of the affect on behaviour, but it is supposed to stop the marking in the house and may have a positive affect on the relationship between them. It also stops the humping!
I had a foster (aged 5) who was a humper and also had bad doggy manners (chin on shoulder, etc.) - Pip (neutered) would not tolerate his behaviour and things got quite nasty, Fletch (entire and a dog like no other) put up with it without fighting, but put a stop to it by playing him at his own game :o - I found foster with a very sticky patch on his back ::), which, just for information, was very difficult to wash off ;D. Foster was neutered and is happily living with another male cocker with no problems.
There is also the possibility that Jasper will grow out of his older teenage behaviour. Most do and if they are not fighting seriously, I personally would wait to see how it pans out.
Hope my ramblings help in some way!
Helen
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So sorry to hear of the trouble with your boys Pammy - I do hope you manage to get it sorted without too much stress
By the way, what is a DAP diffuser?
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Have you considered neutering one (or even both) of them? Helen
Helen - Yes I have thought of this. I got Jasper Tardak'd last year, made no difference at all. :- because of the way Jasper behaves over Buddy and that Buddy does not retaliate - I don't think that doing BIuddy would make the slightest difference either. I'll see how we go with DAP.
Gerry - DAP is Dog Appeasing Pheramone. It's a chemical that mimics a pheramone given off by the newly whelped mother. It helps appease the new puppies and the theory is that it also helps adult dogs. Many have tried it for things like firework fear etc with great success. It has also been used in situations like mine too. Doesn't work for all - but it's worth a try.
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Hi Pam,
Just want to add my best wishes and hope the DAP works. I've been through similar myself in the last year as you know, and I know its not easy. Hope you get your problem resolved soon :)
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Hi Pam - I would just like to say how sorry I was to read about your boys being so naughty. I do hope the DAP works - will be interesting. I noticed someone else mentioned castration and I had been wondering about that - although I am generally against that sort of thing it can be helpful in cases of interdog aggression and it might be worth consulting the vet for his advice. The weeing in the wrong places must be nightmare for you. ;)
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I was just wondering Pammy could this problem be hormone related,!!! I think you can get a blood test done.... But i,m sure youve already thought of it. :)
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Hi Pam, So sorry to hear of the trouble your having at the moment. I hope the DAP works for you. I have one for Alfie as he gets separation anxiety, and it seems to be working.
A lady who lives at the bottom of our road had this problem when she bought two Lhasa pups (both male) They were fine to start off with and then all hell broke loose. She was lucky in as much her friend, across the road from her had just lost her dog and she was able to take 'Henry' from her so she now has the best of both worlds as they go for walks together every day and 'Muffin' enjoys seeing his brother.
It might be a solution if things get alot worse and if there is anyone near you who would help you out.
Sending best wishes for a good outcome.
Lou
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Pam, as far as the marking/peeing indoors is concerned, have you heard of/tried Pet Fresh? They have a website www.petfresh.co.uk and I saw they had a stand at both Bournemouth & Richmond Ch Shows so maybe they will be at others. A friend of mine bought some and she has used it with good results. Might be worth a try :)
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Cheers Michele - I'll give that a go - I'm sure there's be an element of remarking going on. They were given access to the bathroom again tonight and left together in the kitchen while I was out - wee'd in both :- I get so frustrated when I'm told "But they shouldn't do it". I know they shouldn't, but they are, so don't give them the opportunity - grrrrrrr families ;D
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I was with my friend when she bought some at Bournemouth and the guy insisted on demonstrating :o he had a little bottle of what I can only presume was concentrated wee. He gave a couple of squirts of Pet Fresh and then re wafted it under our noses. Honestly the smell had gone so it really must neutralise well :D
By the way I'm not a rep or on commission ;) ;D
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Hi Pammy
Jut back from hols and thought I must just put in my little bit as Sebastian & Bart had their moments.
We had to praise up the top dog and push down the other - Sebastian is top dog so he comes and sits with me first gets all the fuss, let out first etc etc and Bart has to wait until Sebastian lets him come up to me for fuss etc. When they were really grouchy I put Bart on Skullcap and Valerian tablets from Dorwest Herbs - six a day and this did help.
I can honestly say that if we go by the Top Dog Rules we hardly ever get any problems now ... Maybe you could try the Skullcap on Jasper as they are very good for stress as well. Have a look on the Dorwest Website.
I hope things sort themselves out soon for you all :D :D
Lots of {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}
Dessie :D :D
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When they were really grouchy I put Bart on Skullcap and Valerian tablets from Dorwest Herbs - six a day and this did help.
Does it work on husbands too ;) Hope you enjoyed your break!
Emma and Indie
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Sorry to hear the boys gave fallen out. Are either of neutered? If not I suggest you decide who is the most dominant of the two and neuter the other one. Allow one to be dominant and stick to it. Dogs don't think like we do and subserviant one won't be worrying that its not fair his mate got fed first etc. It is hard work and you will probably always have this underlying tension with them but it is controlable. Hope things settle down soon for you. Sometimes they're as bad as kids!! ::)
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I only just noticed this. I did't read trough all the answers, so I hope I a not repeating anything.
Pam, What I wanted to ask is how do you react in a situation that Jasper doesn't let Buddy near you? Or what do you do when they guard toys?
My girls have had their moments, but I think we have been able to settle things now with some little things I do. First of all, I do not give any attention to any of my dogs when they themselves come to get it, I just ignore them. I know this might be hard resisting those sad spaniel eyes, but it really works. When I want to give attention to any of my dogs I just call the dog I want to me. If the others come, I just ignore them (once again ;) ). This does wonders for obedience too, at least my dogs are willing even to "stand on their heads" just for the joy of getting my attention.
What comes to guarding toys, well, I never keep toys lying on the floor. When I decide to play with the dogs I take the toys out, but at other times the toys stay in the box.
I also have a day once a week for each dog. Emma does agility, Ada does obedience +tracking and Kukka does ringcraft classes. I have noticed that this is very important for my dogs, that they every once in a while get me "alone".
I also do not tolerate any kind of fighting in my house. Emma never fights, she couldn't care less. Ada and Kukka fight sometimes, so I simply go in between them, ignore Ada, put Kukka on her back and tell her off (as she is the lowest in the pack).
We also have D.A.P, but I really can't say if it works or not, as I haven't noticed much difference.
I hope you get things settled in your house :) !