CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Feeding => Topic started by: tracy.nolan on June 26, 2008, 07:59:33 PM
-
hi let me say i am very sorry i know u r all sick of this but i need help.Bob is 9 months old and i would like to feed him barfs but i dont have a clue what to feed him how much does it cost where do i get it from pls help again very sorry
-
The more I am looking in to BARF, and getting used to feeding it, the more I realise that there is no real exact formula out there - this is really scary when you are starting out, but actually quite fun once you get your head around the basic formula. We are sticking with the basic principle of BARF (as opposed to some of the other raw feeding models out there), though not doing as much milk meals (as she gets small quantities of yoghurt and cheese daily anyway) - aiming to get to about 60-70% Raw Meaty Bones, 15-20% Muscle Meat (Mince, Heart etc), 5-10% Offal and the rest made up of a fish meal, veggies, eggs, cottage cheese etc. Haven't decided about the starchy meal or the grain/legume meal, but will prob give this for an occassional breakfast...
I started out with the aim of just doing kibble breakfast and a basic BARF based dinner, but Honey loves her raw food so much (except for Liver!!!) and just isn't touching her kibble, so we are pretty resigned to going completely BARF. I am ordering some Keepers Mix at the weekend, as this has been recommended as a good supplement to give. Still researching about the need for other supplements and what the exact balance of meals will be... ph34r But the joy of BARF is you can adapt it as you go, once you see what works, what doesn't etc!!
The advice I would give when starting out is not to start with too much variety - get your dog used to one kind of raw food, then gradually introduce others. And remember that it is about balancing your dog's diet over a few weeks, not over a couple of days. I am still struggling to get Honey to eat her offal - we managed a little bit of minced up liver with her mince this evening, but only after she had refused to eat it for breakfast!! The other advice is to relax and enjoy seeing your dog enjoying his food!! :D
There are plenty of people on here who know far more than me about BARF, so I'm sure there'll be more advice coming along!!!! And I will be reading carefully for any more hints!! :005:
-
I started Lola on BARF a few months ago and was very anxious about how it would all work out.
She has kibble for breakfast and then either tripe, chicken wing or lamb rib/breast for tea. I tried her on liver but she didn't like it. Her weekend treat is a raw egg.
We give her the kibble for breakfast to cover what is not contained (nutritionally) in the evening meal.
I get the chick wings from Sainsbugs cheapo section (about 10 for £1.25-ish) and she has two per meal. Frozen tripe from any pet store (PAH do it) and lamb rib/breast from my butcher for a £5 which, when he's chopped it all up, does for about 20 meals!
Give it a go.....and you'll look back in a couple of months time and wonder what you were worrying about ;)
-
thanks for your replys u have all been helpful he had tripe this morning from pah helpful cos i work there so i get a discount lol he loved it i am gonna give him his kibble for tea tomorrow he gonna have tripe chunks and lamb mince i am gonna get some chicken wings tomorrow i will let u know how i get on
-
thanks for your replys u have all been helpful he had tripe this morning from pah helpful cos i work there so i get a discount lol he loved it i am gonna give him his kibble for tea tomorrow he gonna have tripe chunks and lamb mince i am gonna get some chicken wings tomorrow i will let u know how i get on
Hmmm so you get a discount at P@H do you? I think you may end up with a whole load of friends :005:
-
thanks for your replys u have all been helpful he had tripe this morning from pah helpful cos i work there so i get a discount lol he loved it i am gonna give him his kibble for tea tomorrow he gonna have tripe chunks and lamb mince i am gonna get some chicken wings tomorrow i will let u know how i get on
Hmmm so you get a discount at P@H do you? I think you may end up with a whole load of friends :005:
Oh should never have disclosed that information! Shall i PM you my shopping list? Or has Emma beat me to it? :005:
-
The more I am looking in to BARF, and getting used to feeding it, the more I realise that there is no real exact formula out there - this is really scary when you are starting out, but actually quite fun once you get your head around the basic formula. We are sticking with the basic principle of BARF (as opposed to some of the other raw feeding models out there), though not doing as much milk meals (as she gets small quantities of yoghurt and cheese daily anyway) - aiming to get to about 60-70% Raw Meaty Bones, 15-20% Muscle Meat (Mince, Heart etc), 5-10% Offal and the rest made up of a fish meal, veggies, eggs, cottage cheese etc. Haven't decided about the starchy meal or the grain/legume meal, but will prob give this for an occassional breakfast...
:005:
Karma - I'm not an expert on BARF by any means but I think you've got your ratio for raw meaty bones (60-70%) and muscle meat (15-20%) the wrong way round????
Tracy - from guidance which Derek Turnbull, who runs the BritBarf list on Yahoo has given and stuff gleaned on here and from the books I've read, the summary I made for daily amounts was as follows for dogs aged 6 months and older (Derek Turnbull is an absolute guru on BARF feeding - he's done it and studied it in depth for years - I'd recommend joining the BritBARF group too):
1. You're looking to feed 2 to 3% bodyweight per day, including ALL treats etc (lose any treats which contain additives, preservatives etc). Flex within this percentage range depending on whether you're starting with a tubby dog (go to the 2% end), an overly skinny dog (go to the 3% range) or a healthy weight dog (go mid range) and then "play" with the amounts after a week or two, depending on your dog's response, weight wise. I've found that Paddy maintains a perfect weight/look/feel at 3%, but he gets two hours of off-lead and 30 minutes of on-lead exercise per day.
2. Of this total amount per day, 5 to15% should be bone.
3. About 70% should be protein (meat, tripe, heart, fish, eggs - all raw).
4. About 15 to 20% should be glandular organs (kidney, liver etc). Note that heart is "meat" not "organs" for BARF purposes. Beware though: liver in particular is famous for causing the squits and if your dog suffers this, then scale back on liver. One advantage of raw kidney and liver (especially lamb) is that they're high in the B vitamins. If your dog is eating poo, (dog/cat/rabbit etc), it can be a sign of a B12 deficiency. Whatever your dog's diet, if you give him/her some lamb kidney or liver (a small teaspoon per day), you may well find that they stop any poo-eating.
The optional bits - which is personal preference for you and your dog, based on your own research and the guidance you get from other more experienced raw feeders - are the supplements/extras. I use them as a safety net as follows, but with Paddy, I see a real difference if he doesn't get them:
1. I add in a dessertspoon of pulped mixed raw fruit and veg (mainly veg) to each meal as the fibre seems to help Paddy's bowels - he has a horrible history of colitis which BARF sorted out.
2. I add in a spoonful of "Keeper's Mix" a dried herb/veg blend from Dorwest Herbs ( www.dorwestherbs.co.uk - I get the 250g size, and it lasts ages) - may help, may not but doesn't do any harm. One spoon added to each meal (I feed twice a day, morning and evening).
3. I add in fish body oil (NOT cod liver oil) to his breakfast every day. I buy the supplements (1000mg) in capsule form from Boots and pierce the gel capsule with a sharp knife, drain oil onto his food, stir in. I also give him Vitamin E oil capsules (he'll swallow these out of my hand because they are small). 100 to 200 i.u. of Vitamin E oil per 1000mg of fish oil. Rich in essential fats, so good for brain/concentration, good for skin condition, good for nerves, good for heart/circulation and good for soothing the digetstive tract. By the way - all of these benefits also apply to humans. Give fish oil/Vit E in combination as supplementing one without the other can trigger an imbalance/deficiency.
4. Finally - I also give Paddy a Sunday treat, of mackerels or sardines in sunflower oil followed by a raw egg for his brekkie. During the warm weather, I give him the whole egg, including shell as he can eat it all and make a mess outdoors. During the winter, he's just been getting the raw egg, no shell, in his bowl - the shell is good for calcium intake.
I don't feed in these exact proportions all the time now - sometimes if I don't have the glandular organs, Paddy may just get a couple of "organ-dominant" meals during the week, to make up the shortfall. It's all about balance overall.
Also, I've found that Paddy gets badly constipated if I give him a meal of just meaty bones (but again, this is related to his colitis), so I have had to cut back on his total bone content to the 5% end of the scale, give him a small bit with each meat/organ dominated meal and increase the number of tripe meals he gets, to keep the calcium content of his diet up. But his colitis has meant that his system is off-kilter and you probably won't have any such problems.
When I started, I was really worried about "getting it all right" so I bought all the "bits" (meaty bones, meat, organs) and spent an hour chopping up liver/kidney, and then weighing everything out precisely, in proportion and then bagged it into meal sized freezer bags, froze two weeks' worth and then just defrosted what I needed as I went. I still do this - Sunday evenings, but I do three weeks' worth at a time. Since I work full time, I have to have the convenience of being able to reach in the freezer and pull out two bags for next day to defrost overnight.
In terms of the meats you can feed - most people start with chicken wings, chicken backs (good because you get bone and meat and some organ pieces). For various reasons to do with his colitis, I only feed Paddy on lamb, but this is unusual. But do please bear in mind that there is a fat (can't remember its name) in raw chicken that some dogs can't digest so it can cause diarrhoea. Most BARF'ers are feeding beef, lamb, pork, chicken and (depending on its availability) some other rarer types like rabbit.
It also depends on where/how you're going to source the raw meat and bones. I started buying only human-grade meat and bones for Paddy and I've ended up sticking with that - but it's more costly, for sure.
You can buy raw mixes (different meat types, some with bonemeal in, some with raw veg pulped and mixed in) from pet food stores too. I know lots of feeders on COL and BritBARF have far more creative and cost-effective ways of feeding so hopefully they'll come along with suggestions. If you go into e.g. Pets@home, you'll find these bagged products from AMP ("Anglian Meat Processors") in the freezers.
Hope this helps.
Denise
-
Karma - I'm not an expert on BARF by any means but I think you've got your ratio for raw meaty bones (60-70%) and muscle meat (15-20%) the wrong way round????
I think this illustrates the confusion about BARF for new-comers - as there are different opinions out there. I have based Honey's diet around Dr Billinghurst's BARF diet book, and he suggests that "raw meaty bones should form the bulk of the diet, somewhere between forty and eighty percent, depending upon what else you decide to feed..." ;)
Although bearing in mind that raw meaty bones are not just pure bone, it probably doesn't work out all that different in the end!!
At the end of the day it's a case of looking at all the info out there and deciding what is right for your dog - if Honey seemed to be getting constipated, or she wasn't digesting all her bones, I'd probably cut back on bones and give more muscle meat. We're still starting out, so still got lots of ironing out to do... We've eaten Oxtail for the very first time, which was amusing as she really didn't know what to do with it at first! :005:
We also feed a little more than 3% of her weight, but at 10 months she is still "filling out".
I would also recommend the BritBarf yahoo group (only joined a couple of days ago myself)!!
-
After preaching to my mum about raw meaty bones for her smelly little dog who is the fussiest eater ever - she tried him only for him to turn his nose up at! So i suggested giving him a raw egg the next day, which he also turned his nose up at, i could tell she thought i was bonkers! I think this is one animal that prefers his food well and truly cooked! ph34r ph34r
-
After preaching to my mum about raw meaty bones for her smelly little dog who is the fussiest eater ever - she tried him only for him to turn his nose up at! So i suggested giving him a raw egg the next day, which he also turned his nose up at, i could tell she thought i was bonkers! I think this is one animal that prefers his food well and truly cooked! ph34r ph34r
A lot of dogs don't *take* to raw food straight away - you can tempt them at first by hand feeding them, or flash frying for a second or two to bring out the smell; many seasoned BARF fed dogs were reluctant on their first try ;)
-
I just felt a bit silly after banging on so much. He does need his glands emptying alot and he is the smelliest dog i have ever smelt, just a general smelly dog odour that he has! I suggested the 'flash frying' but i think iv put my mum off a bit! :005: He did carry the chicken off and kept going back looking at it! He was tempted i could tell. ;)
-
The first chicken wing Honey had she carried around and sniffed an awful lot.... then eventually settled down to chomp at it. Now they last about 3 seconds!!! :005:
But we recently gave her oxtail, and the first peice of this she just didn't know what to do with it. In the end I cut a little peice off, gave her this and then the rest, and eventually she cottoned on....
It was the same with the fish... she just carried it about. When I cut it into about 6 peices, she ate 4 (including the head and the tail) but left the other two (nothing would persuade her to eat it!!).
I have a liver query - we are struggling to get Honey to eat Liver and was wondering if trying a different Liver was worth a try??? I don't eat Liver myself, so don't know how different they taste...
She has eaten Kidneys without a second thought, so it seems strange that she just won't touch the Liver.... :huh:
-
I have to mince liver in with muscle tissue - Molo just won't eat it otherwise; he even picks it out of the rabbits I give them ::)
-
I have to mince liver in with muscle tissue - Molo just won't eat it otherwise; he even picks it out of the rabbits I give them ::)
Me too - I think it is a the slimy texture Coco doesn't like - don't blame her really :-\ I just chop up the liver and put it in with some mince and she eats it up no probs ;)
-
my older dog loves any meat i put down for her but bob his more fussy he loves tripe dosent like mince lamb i gave him some tripe chunks yesterday my older dog munched them down he just sniffed at it and kept dragging it around the kitchen he ate some rabbit this morning i will keep at it though
-
also silly question i have been using pah 400g blocks pricechoice ones bob weighs 11kgs how much should he have a day i gave him half this morning i was gonna give him the rest for tea is that too much and one more question i promise what sort of ribs do i buy i would prefer frozen sainsburys or asdas is ideal as iwork at pah in charlton asdas is next door thanks for your help
-
You should be aiming to feed 3% of his weight so that would be about 330g a day. I buy breast of lamb from the butchers and cut it into ribs. You can get it in morrisons but I dont know about asda, Introduce different meats slowly dont try to many varietys at once. I used to bash chicken wings with a rolling pin when I first started feeding barf. They just scoff them now in about 3 seconds flat.
-
also silly question i have been using pah 400g blocks pricechoice ones bob weighs 11kgs how much should he have a day .....
I get these too!
Bracken has a 1/3 of the pack, (I defrost it, divide it, cover and fridge the rest) for teatime along with a dollop of whizzed veg, an evening primrose oil casule and followed by a chicken wing! Tonight she also had a dollop of natural yog on top too ;)
I do feed her a breakfast meal of either sardines, pilchards, mackerel or tuna as well - she doesnt get meat for breakfast.
Shes about 13kg which seems fine for her height and build.
-
On the "not eating liver" point - a lot of people also flash-fry it (2 seconds each side in a hot pan) to get their dogs to eat it.
-
gave bob a chicken wing he was not interested chucked it about a bit then would not touch i will try again