CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: nickycnc on January 13, 2010, 05:49:51 PM
-
I'm on the look out for my new working cocker....I had pretty much decided on a bitch as a local trainer had suggested she would be easier to train. Now that I've done loads more research I'm not sure anymore. I've already got a bitch (only 1/4 worker) who can be a little moody sometimes and not at all biddable (except when she wants a cuddle), so I'm really hoping to get a dog who will be a bit more interested in pleasing me than themselves >:D and as a novice trainer I've got to try and get a good start.
I'm sure the answer will down to everyone's own preference but keen to hear other people's opinions and experiences as I have only had females before....Thanks
Also what do they mean when they advertise a dog as being 'honest'?
-
depends on the individual dog - from my own view I do have a biddable working cocker and he's a boy...he's soft though and would never withstand heavy handed treatment but will work with me all day long and really wants to please :luv:
I do think generally that bitches can be a bit bolder and braver which can work for and against you :lol2:
in what context are they using 'honest' - it can simply be 'what you see is exactly what you get' or that the dog in question has no guile and is extremely biddable.
-
It definitely depends on the dog and it's hard to generalise based on sex. In my own personal experience just with boys I've had one very biddable boy and one unbiddable and very difficult to train one and the girls are equally as different from each other as they are from the boys.
I now have 2 bitches and a dog and of the 3 of them Rodaidh is the most biddable but he's also quite soft, he would shut down if he had any hard handling. When he was younger he often needed a lot of gentle 'revving up' to get him going when he was having a stresshead moment, he does not have that real driven edge that Caoimhe does but he has become a lot more confident as he's got older.
Caoimhe is bright, fearless and very driven, she'll tackle anything and has a real 'yep I can do that!' attitude but at the same time she's very focussed and fun to handle. I would say a novice handler would struggle with her as she is very fast and quick-thinking and has a real mind of her own but I absolutely love working with her. I find her easier to train than Ro was at that age because she's so keen and I don't have to worry about overloading her.
Tilly is very independent, she's well trained and very intelligent and is by far the least biddable of my 3. If she doesn't want to do something she makes it very clear. I'm used to her and she to me but with other people she can be a cheeky mare and she just won't listen to them.
To me an honest dog is one which will always do their best and is guileless. Rodaidh is probably a bit too honest and ends up stressing himself and Tilly's the opposite and couldn't really give a monkey's :lol2:
Personally if I'm looking for a dog to train up I look at what's available and take each one on its individual merits, unless there's a reason why you have to go for a particular sex I would look for other traits in individual pups first. When I was looking for the dog that turned out to be Caoimhe I was looking for a bold, outgoing, driven pup from the right breeding which didn't vocalise, moved nicely, had a friendly, inquisitive personality, had a natural interest in retrieving and interacted well with people and I rejected a few before I found her. Looking at the parents, any older siblings and related dogs can give you a good idea of how a pup may turn out although obviously there are never any guarantees.
-
the Hawcroft video (see other thread) has a good first section on choosing a working puppy. I thought it was really interesting how the trainer highlighted various traits. It was not so much about dog vs bitch but all about the individual characters and how you could look at a litter and have an idea of what might be the best.
Tbh I would not get caught up on gender unless you were breeding. I'd be more interested in the parent stock and related health checks.
There are often waiting lists for good litters and of course the breeder will never be able to guarantee what you may or may not be able to have. I know some working cocker breeders that give full working homes a preference - in which case you may find yourself 'down the list' so to speak.
I'd start talking to the breeders about the parents first - what are they like? Get to know a few and maybe put yourself down on a few lists - so when the time comes, you have a choice.
-
in what context are they using 'honest' - it can simply be 'what you see is exactly what you get' or that the dog in question has no guile and is extremely biddable.
I'm not 100% sure, but I've seen it advertised alot and have been wondering if it was a gundog term.
Personally if I'm looking for a dog to train up I look at what's available and take each one on its individual merits, unless there's a reason why you have to go for a particular sex I would look for other traits in individual pups first. When I was looking for the dog that turned out to be Caoimhe I was looking for a bold, outgoing, driven pup from the right breeding which didn't vocalise, moved nicely, had a friendly, inquisitive personality, had a natural interest in retrieving and interacted well with people and I rejected a few before I found her.
Hi Nicola, what was it about them that made you reject them? Is it simply that they were the opposite of what you were looking for or was it something else. I'm a little worried that my heart will pick rather than my head :luv:.
Moola - I will defo look at that Video, thanks
-
Personally if I'm looking for a dog to train up I look at what's available and take each one on its individual merits, unless there's a reason why you have to go for a particular sex I would look for other traits in individual pups first. When I was looking for the dog that turned out to be Caoimhe I was looking for a bold, outgoing, driven pup from the right breeding which didn't vocalise, moved nicely, had a friendly, inquisitive personality, had a natural interest in retrieving and interacted well with people and I rejected a few before I found her.
Hi Nicola, what was it about them that made you reject them? Is it simply that they were the opposite of what you were looking for or was it something else. I'm a little worried that my heart will pick rather than my head :luv:.
They just didn't tick all the boxes I wanted really, I knew what I was looking for and I made my head rule my heart as I really wanted to get the 'right' dog, or bitch as I was specifically looking for a girl. Some litters didn't have the lines I was looking out for, one older pup I considered wasn't bold enough. If I didn't find the right one I wasn't going to buy anything, I'd have kept looking into this year. Reject is probably a bit of a harsh word, I should've said I decided they weren't right for me :005:
-
in what context are they using 'honest' - it can simply be 'what you see is exactly what you get' or that the dog in question has no guile and is extremely biddable.
I'm not 100% sure, but I've seen it advertised alot and have been wondering if it was a gundog term.
Just means trainable, not hard headed or stubborn or too independant ;)
I agree; unless you have a preference for a boy or girl it really doesn't matter, it's the individual and their personality and temperment. If you are looking at young pupppies and working with an experienced breeder/trainer, I would be very honest about what you are looking for in the dog and what you plan to do work wise, and also be honest about what you dont know and let the breeder help or do the choosing :shades:
-
firstly decide what work you want to do with the dog...ie is going to be trialing competition work,,,,for useing at a formal shoot where you are the ''hired help''(not shooting) just flushing and retrieveing as necessary..or is it for rough shooting ie flushing game for you to shoot,,,will it be working all season or just odd time when you want day out beating..etc
my views would be if you want a rough shoot dog avoid the best bread pups as these may have way to much drive and speed for you to handle and something with the ftch a bit further back in history will provide enough of the inbread working drive to meet ur needs....for trialing you want the opposite and will be looking for specific lines triats and distinctions......as nicola was...
where im coming from is boy girl is personal choice.....on plus side girls dont mark there teritory minus side they have seasons.....so weigh up these type of issues.....it really will come down to personal choice as your going to train the pup they dont make the mistakes its just we aint trained them properly.... ;)
-
Non Scientific answer but:
Its all to do with the temperament and there is no difference between dog and bitch, but is there a difference between Rowan and solid colours?
The earlier post about getting the dog for the job is right on the money for me.
Every solid colour dog ive met has been as hard as nails in the shooting field, can be easy to train, can be handled quite hard, can be told off with some force, fast movers, hard workers.
Rowan’s are quite the opposite, easier to handle, not so loopy!!!!!!!!!!! More considerate to the handler, slower, more careful, and think a little more, will pee their pants if told off.
As I said its not science just my feelings
I do think its true to say that the more working in the blood the more it will be ingrained into them so possibly a trials strain for instance will train up easier than one with some show blood in it. Careful though the Trials dog with be a totally different temperament though, don’t buy a F1 car to do the shopping in.
-
I don't think colour has anything to do with it, it's more to do with the lines the dog comes from and their own individual personality. Certainly in my experience the hard to train, hard to handle dog I had was a light blue roan and my much softer and very biddable dog is a solid gold (and worth his weight in it too :005:). He's a very good worker, a pleasure to handle and as steady as they come but he's about as far from 'hard as nails' as you'll get, he doesn't do well with heavy handling at all whereas the roan dog you could have shouted at him all day long if you'd been so inclined and it was like water off a duck's back. My red bitch on the other hand probably could live up to that 'solid' description but she comes from completely different lines and I bought her to trial.
Careful though the Trials dog with be a totally different temperament though, don’t buy a F1 car to do the shopping in.
I like that quote, quite similar to one a trainer said to me when he saw my red bitch at 10 months old - 'that one's not a family model is she' :lol2:
-
I have a little gold bitch which looks so similar to your Goldie Nicola, what is his blood line
-
I have a little gold bitch which looks so similar to your Goldie Nicola, what is his blood line
He was bred in Scotland and his sire is a Rothievale dog, his grandsires are Chyknell Gold Star and Maesydderwen Sorcerer. What is your bitch?
-
I have a little gold bitch which looks so similar to your Goldie Nicola, what is his blood line
He was bred in Scotland and his sire is a Rothievale dog, his grandsires are Chyknell Gold Star and Maesydderwen Sorcerer. What is your bitch?
Tess has maesydderwen sorcerer in her bloodline too :D
-
quite different then, Ruby is form Timsgarry Simpson and Black Mamba is in there quite a lot
-
My working bitch has been a joy to train, at puppy classes she flew through her beginners (and won top dog) and next 2 intermediate. (unfortunately club shut down after, due to lack of support)
Her reason for living is to please me, and I only have to put 5 minutes in, and she's cracked it!
That said, my 10 year show, is now deaf, and is still quite quick to pick up on hand signals!
-
quite different then, Ruby is form Timsgarry Simpson and Black Mamba is in there quite a lot
My 15 month old red bitch is by Timsgarry Barlow so will have more relatives in common with your girl; they're half brothers out of Timsgarry Kelly so both go back to Mamba etc. This is her -
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa141/workingcockers/Caoimhe/IMG_0729.jpg)
-
SNAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yep she is almost the spitting image of Ruby, is she a nutter like Ruby?
one confused question for me is when does gold become red?
Considering how unusual it is for the blood line throw a non black its quite s surprise to meet another. There is some timer a Liver which appears more often than the gold/red.
I’ve shot over several of the Timsgarry Clan, they are quite amazing dogs to watch
-
:lol2: No she's not a nutter but she is very, very driven and utterly fearless, she's definitely a Ferrari model working Cocker :005:
The Timsgarry dogs are fantastic and Simon is great, Caoimhe is down there with him just now, he's going to start trialling her in the autumn, he thinks she has a lot of potential so he's been doing some intensive game work with her for me. I'm going down to collect her at the weekend so I'll see some of the other dogs again while I'm there.
Caoimhe's dam is red and her litter was blacks and reds. Both Barlow and Simpson throw reds/golds if the bitch also carries it so it must come via T.Kelly somewhere along the line. The livers are much more common though after the blacks. Do you have any photos of Ruby? I'd also be interested to see her full pedigree, Caoimhe's is already on the Pedigree Research board, I think it's on page 2.
In terms of the colours red is much darker than gold, you can see the difference in Caoimhe and Rodaidh here, she has her best serious face on in this photo -
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa141/workingcockers/2010/IMG_9650.jpg)
-
That’s interesting, she is certainly darker that cocker on the right but not quite as dark as the left one I think.
This site is quite difficult to post photos on, ill have to download some to flicker or something.
Is Simon training your dog for you?
Odd you are there at the weekend, I will be with Simon on Saturday morning for a session, I must go and look up the time.
Ruby is not the lunatic type of nutter but does fit the key features you list, it’s quite amazing to see how driven she can be when she is hunting compared to my Blue dog who can be Mr laid back when he is out shooting with me.
-
Ah I'll probably be there on Sunday! I've done most of Caoimhe's training but Simon's had her down to assess her for trialling, to do some intensive game work with her as I don't have rabbit pens etc. and to give her a bit of 'polish' for competitions. I'll be continuing her training once she's home again next week and I'm running her in field tests over the summer. If I lived nearer we'd go to him for lessons but it's a 10 hour round trip so it's easier for her to stay down there.
To post photos you need to put them onto a Flickr or Photobucket account and then paste the links onto the forum. I'd definitely like to see Ruby, what are you hoping to do with her?
-
Ruby will be working next season :huh:
it all depends on the next few months i guess, she is showing quite good promise for a bit of competition which could be interesting, little problem is that she can be a bit noisey so we are working on that one.
She is an amazing natural hunting skill which we need to follow up and lots of retreive work where i have just come back from.
A little late on her training as i had to take a months off last season due to ill health.
Do you attend any of Simons training days on Stiper Stones?
-
Caoimhe was too young for the training days last year but we should make it to at least one this year.
-
i guess we will be shooting on some of the training days again this season so may meet up?
have you been up on Stiper stones where Simon runs some of his days? great country but realy hard work. If you thought walking through heather was hard, wait till you find the old tree plantation hidden under the waist deep heather!!!!!!!!!!!!
least you can have a sit down on the old stumps whilst there is a retreive on.
one tip is do book up early for the days as the sell out real quick.
-
its been while now but i think she was in the back of Simons truck when i was there last, guess its a good chance as Black white bib isusually order of the day.
so now having seen yours i guess ruby is red?
-
Sorry I just saw this, yes that was Caoimhe in the back of Simon's truck when you were there on the Saturday, I came down to pick her up the following day.
-
Certainly in my experience the hard to train, hard to handle dog I had was a light blue roan
Apologies for hijacking thread but you need an update Nic - this boy so smart he has a part-time job at the circus, has cracked the DNA code for gundoggery and skulduggery, helped design the Hadron Collider and is currently researching the origins of Dark Matter.
ph34r ph34r ph34r