Worried about training

[panda66]

Been taking Lila gundog training for 4weeks now but not sure about it.  It is very friendly and his dogs seem  are happy but he is recommending rattles for a couple of the labs with different house issues and walking to heel involves a lot of hard jerking so much so that Lila looks really upset and just tries to get back to me when he is doing it with her.
He also recommends not letting them off the lead at all and today a 15mth cocker which  has never been off the lead ran off several times when doing heelwork and got yanked upwards very roughly many times - which didn't work as she kept doing it.  He does give make a big fuss of them when they do something right.
I know gundog trainers sometimes punish but I am worried as Lila looked so frightened and she hadn't done anything wrong. I put her in the car and when I went back 15mins later she was shaking.
Am I just being soft and is this the norm?

[Helly D]

I have no experience of training gun dogs but it seems pretty wrong to me and very old fashioned. It reminds me of when I took my old cocker to puppy training in 2005 when it was choke chains and lots of jerking back to get them to heel. No treats but praise when they did the right thing. Fast forward 13 years and it was totally different. Same puppy school but totally different methods with treats and definitely no choke chains.

No way would I let anyone treat my dog like that. Interestingly we were in a pub in the New Forest a couple of months ago and there was a couple with a GSP. The guy kept hitting the dog if she got up, even around the face if she sniffed the table. I was fuming as it was totally unnecessary. When he got up I had a chat with his wife and found out the dog was being trained to the gun (she was about 15 months) so wonder if its general practice in gun dog world.

If a dog is fearful then it isn't going to learn anything, especially if its a sensitive dog. Perhaps you could have a chat with him and ask about the methods he uses and why. May be old habits die hard with some people, may be some trainers use kinder methods or maybe its an accepted way in training gun dogs. If you explain how your dog reacted then hopefully he will give explanations that will either reassure you or make you decide to look for another trainer.

[MaggieR]

As with all things there are good and bad out there.  Sounds to me like this guy is still old school in his approach to some things. It is possible to find gundog trainers who base their training around positive reinforcement and if I were you I'd be looking for one.

[Helen]

absolutely!  You can train a gundog without punitive methods. 

Yes there are some old fashioned dog trainers who I would avoid but equally I feel the best behaved working cockers, without a doubt in my view, are trained to the gun    (probably because they are trained to control and not chase so their recall is spot on 

If you find a 'good' gundog trainer you're on to a winner - panda66, I went to one like yours.  Lasted one lesson.  Changed as he was a misogynistic old fashioned bully trainer.  It really depends what you want out of your dog - if you want to train to field trial level then the boundaries are far more rigid than if you want a dog that is a companion and one that works on shoots.

[JeffD]

Interesting post, I wonder how many professional gun dog trainers use only positive reinforcement, I think it would be only a very few, How many dogs trained only by positive reinforcement have been able to reach FTCH  status.
I would presume the trainer in the first post although very old fashioned in my view, is typical of a lot of gundog trainers.

[panda66]

He says he was trained by someone really harsh but that it is necessary with some dogs as they are stubborn. I did say I was worried about Lila being upset he said that was cockers for you but she would come round and mentioned the dogs as pack animals dominance thing.  I want her well trained but happy, not behaving because she is frightened.
There is a localish gundog trainer who apparently uses clicker training but specialises on retrievers and also Kipperidge gundogs a bit further afield so I will try one of them.
Anyone had experiance of Kipperidge or Nick Powell at Ormskirk gundogs?

[Gordon]

If that was my Gundog Trainer I would have not returned and quickly found myself another one, no need at all to be aggressive with the dog

Try putting a noose around the trainers neck and giving it a good yank, I bet he would not approve.
I have learnt from my mistakes, I had my Springer in residential training with a very well known award winning trainer for over 4 months at some cost, first time I let him off the lead he ran off and I thought I had lost him, he returned 1 hr later as though nothing had happened, his recall was 0%, I have now changed trainers, started again from basics and my Springer is a totally different dog, not 100% we are both still learning but we will be getting there !!!

[JeffD]

He says he was trained by someone really harsh but that it is necessary with some dogs as they are stubborn.

I would say the opposite, being harsh with a stubborn dog will not get results, they have already learnt to ignore harshness that's why they are called stubborn.
The best way to train a so called stubborn  ( already messed up) dog is with reward.

[Helen]

Jeffd - I do think you can train dogs without punishment.  This doesn't mean being soft on them but using firmness, consistency and kindness.   I think that there is a vast difference with this thinking rather than using force and pain as an incentive for a dog to learn 

A good trainer will treat every dog as an individual and adjust the training to suit the dog.

[Pearly]

He says he was trained by someone really harsh but that it is necessary with some dogs as they are stubborn. I did say I was worried about Lila being upset he said that was cockers for you but she would come round and mentioned the dogs as pack animals dominance thing.  I want her well trained but happy, not behaving because she is frightened.
There is a localish gundog trainer who apparently uses clicker training but specialises on retrievers and also Kipperidge gundogs a bit further afield so I will try one of them.
Anyone had experiance of Kipperidge or Nick Powell at Ormskirk gundogs?

Adrian Slater of Kipperidge was one of the two gun dog trainers demo'ing at Crufts - he uses reward based training and I particularly liked his idea of training young cockers to retrieve decorating rollers as they are light   his two demo dogs are incredibly well behaved/trained as you would expect and he is clearly, very, highly thought of by the Kennel Club to be invited.  I was concerned that the two dogs were very subservient and had their bottoms almost glued to the ground the whole time but to be fair it was a small ring in a very noisy environment and he took great care to know where they were at all times.

[Bluebell]

He says he was trained by someone really harsh but that it is necessary with some dogs as they are stubborn. I did say I was worried about Lila being upset he said that was cockers for you but she would come round and mentioned the dogs as pack animals dominance thing.  I want her well trained but happy, not behaving because she is frightened.
There is a localish gundog trainer who apparently uses clicker training but specialises on retrievers and also Kipperidge gundogs a bit further afield so I will try one of them.
Anyone had experiance of Kipperidge or Nick Powell at Ormskirk gundogs?

Adrian Slater of Kipperidge was one of the two gun dog trainers demo'ing at Crufts - he uses reward based training and I particularly liked his idea of training young cockers to retrieve decorating rollers as they are light   his two demo dogs are incredibly well behaved/trained as you would expect and he is clearly, very, highly thought of by the Kennel Club to be invited.  I was concerned that the two dogs were very subservient and had their bottoms almost glued to the ground the whole time but to be fair it was a small ring in a very noisy environment and he took great care to know where they were at all times.

I was quite suprised at that too, but one of them was very young 
I really enjoyed watching this gundog diplay by Philippa  Williams - the dogs were very confident and happy  - even the 6 month old Retriever
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=4TFMhtKb8uQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4TFMhtKb8uQ&gl=GB

[Pearly]

I was quite suprised at that too, but one of them was very young 
I really enjoyed watching this gundog diplay by Philippa  Williams - the dogs were very confident and happy  - even the 6 month old Retriever
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=4TFMhtKb8uQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4TFMhtKb8uQ&gl=GB

Hmmm, it left me feeling a bit uneasy but as my friend said [she trains an agility class] the two dogs were anticipating his every command and were half sat, ready - just not normal cocker behaviour compared to Pearl....who sits when she chooses to and only if the ground isn't too wet, prickly or cold

They did seem really fit and healthy dogs.  He's also produced DVDs which may be worth purchasing?  Kevin Powell in Shropshire also has a DVD on training cockers to the gun.....I'm still waiting to find out about work before I commit to training classes but will be going to meet Kevin as soon as I know what my availibility is - not much use to OP given he's in Shropshire, sorry.

Have been to Ironpitts which was wonderful but a long distance from here - really liked Lara's whole approach.  She understands spaniels

[praia]

He says he was trained by someone really harsh but that it is necessary with some dogs as they are stubborn. I did say I was worried about Lila being upset he said that was cockers for you but she would come round and mentioned the dogs as pack animals dominance thing.  I want her well trained but happy, not behaving because she is frightened.

When someone calls a dog stubborn, that just means that they haven't figured out those things that motivate them enough to do as you ask.  Soft dogs do not need harsh methods and highly motivated and high drive dogs like Cockers do not require excessively coercive methods.  It's actually a blessing to have a dog with high drives (food, prey, social, etc) as that just means that they are that much more motivated to do things to satisfy those drives.  A good trainer will understand individual temperaments, specific drives and drive thresholds and use that to their advantage.  Domination is about bending a dog to your will.  Training is about teaching a dog appropriate behaviors and building a strong and trusting relationship while doing so.

What bothers me most in your description is their method of teaching heel.  How dare they correct a dog that doesn't understand what you are asking of it in the first place.  Imagine the fear and absolute confusion a dog feels when suddenly it's being corrected when it hasn't been first taught what is expected of it.  This method is unfair to the dog and possibly damaging to the relationship you've built with your dog.

[JeffD]

Jeffd - I do think you can train dogs without punishment.  This doesn't mean being soft on them but using firmness, consistency and kindness.   I think that there is a vast difference with this thinking rather than using force and pain as an incentive for a dog to learn 

A good trainer will treat every dog as an individual and adjust the training to suit the dog.

I totally agree Helen, I have been saying this for 30 years but unfortunately there is still lots of trainers who would disagree with us.

[panda66]

Have since been to Adrian Slater.  Totally different, and better, experience.
All reward based. Happy and perfectly behaved dogs