What breed lines and why

[DLK]

Hello you working Cocker Handlers,  Im interested in finding out what your working cockers breed lines are.  Im also interested if you know of any issues with the breed ie timid, aggressive late learner, fast Lerner or any other traits you wish to inform me off.

[*Lucy*]

There is a Pedigree Research board here http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?board=132.0 - you can see what lines peoples workers have! 

[DLK]

Thank you I will research it but I guess this will not tell me the traits of the breed lines.

[Helen]

You haven't mentioned health - aren't you concerned that working cockers are having more and more hip problems (yet are rarely hip scored) and that there has been PRA in the lines? (denied but it has happened - and many dogs that are being optigen tested are coming back as affected or carriers). 

lots of working cocker breeders have bred off unsuitable dams and sires, and there's no 'general' information about the traits you have asked about.  After all why would you advertise that?  I suggest seeing as many relations of your dog-to-be as possible and make your decision from that.

Personally I don't like 'popular sire' syndrome, and would rather go for a dog that is working bred and who's sire and dam have traits I admire - particularly temperament and biddability - red and repetitions of red in a pedigree don't impress me much and it's a rarity to find dogs (especially from above the M25) that don't have particular FT CH's in their pedigree....

 I also think that nurture has a lot to do with it - and puppy selection is paramount.  Surely if you don't want a timid dog, you won't choose the most timid one in the litter....

[DLK]

Thank you for your reply, of course im interested in Health of the dogs and your message has enlightened me some what so thank you.  I have just learnt something about Cockers and im grateful for your knowlage.

[Helen]

Thank you for your reply, of course im interested in Health of the dogs and your message has enlightened me some what so thank you.  I have just learnt something about Cockers and im grateful for your knowlage.

Health has not been considered really until the last 10 years    I'm not (by far) the font of knowledge on working cockers on here - Nicola, Wrenside and Workingcockers are yer laydees    If you have access to the pedigree of your potential pup I'm sure people will let you know what they know of the lines.

I do see lots of working cockers (and I'm sure you do too) at game fairs that are very timid and have their tails firmly clamped between their legs - as you will know by training them yourself they're all individuals but I would say a lot are really sensitive and training them can be a different kettle of fish than a lab    Mine would never respond to rough handling - the 'voice of doom' (used only rarely) is the worst punishment ever for him  (and ignoring him crucifies him) but each cocker is different. 

Have you got a copy of "The cocker man" by Hedley Millington?  It is a lovely little book and gives an insight into someone who bred and field trialled working cockers even in the days when they were scoffed at 

[DLK]

Its like starting again, but at least I have trained many cockers so im not going into it blind.  I will study the breed now im interested in it.  I will view the pedigree and post it on here to see what people think and I can take advice.

I have seen some timid Cockers but I have also seen some very good ones.  Only once has the Kennel and run being won by a cocker but it deserved.  It beat all the springes and all the labs hands down.  I now train the handler on a one to one basis.

If you fancy having a go the next game fair is October and you can see this information on the selby game fair web site.  I dont think im allowe dto put the link on sorry
I will check this book out thank you very much.

[Helen]

...and do all your lab mates and your springer mates think you're mad going over to the 'working cocker dark side' ? 

[DLK]

Not only my labs and springers ME TOOOOOO

Im looking forward to it so much but i will do my home work.

[Nicola]

I helped my Stepfather to train and work Springers for years before I 'defected' over to Cockers. They can be quite different but I wouldn't go back to Springers now, much to his amusement as much as he likes the Cockers he thinks I'm 'making life unnecessarily hard for myself'   In my experience Springers are certainly a lot more forgiving of poor handling or mistakes on the trainer's part than Cockers are, you have to work harder to gain a Cocker's trust and respect but it's definitley worth having.

Training wise my dogs are all very different; my male dog is a bit on the soft side, I had hoped to trial him but unfortunately he lacks the killer edge required for this although he is a good working dog, is very easy to train and he enjoys what he does. He has run in a few working tests and he loves scurries etc. and he's now moving up to be my main working dog. My youngest bitch is a different kettle of fish, she's still only 6 months but is bold and confident and a natural worker while still being a lovely biddable girl and I have high hopes for her. She comes from a more FT background on her sire's side and more purely 'working', more unusual, outcrossed lines on her dam's side which was what really attracted me to her, she has a nice balance of the two.

There tends to be a lot of repetition in current working Cocker pedigrees, the same dogs crop up again and again and a lot of current and recent FTCH dogs are certainly overused and will be put to pretty much any bitch that comes along. There are also a lot of people breeding the dogs as pets or for things like agility etc. which I personally don't agree with and I would never consider buying a dog from these lines. A big 'trend' is litters with a well known FTCH sire and a pet bitch who has never heard gunshot in her life so it can be a minefield and a well known sire is not a guarantee of anything. It is difficult at the moment to find something a bit different from a strong working background and that doesn't have the same old same old breeding cropping up again and again which is why I was pleased to get my youngest bitch.

If you post up the pedigree of your potential dog and say what info you're looking for people should be able to help you.

[spanielcrazy]

I agree with Helen and Nicola about the health testing; what could be more useless than a blind crippled "working dog"? 

IMO in working lines a lot depends on what you want to do with the dog. If you want to do some serious trialling, then go to the top kennels and get the dog from there. They usually know the lines and have trained or competed against a lot of the dogs in the pedigree so can be quite a fountain of information. (I like older breeders for that reason  )

Those dogs can be a bit high wire for a first time with cockers, or if you are into rough shooting or a more relaxed pace, but again, the the serious field trial folk should be able to steer you toward the kind of dog you want. They have also had years of experience evaluating litters and watching them mature and can give you a good idea of how any given pup may turn out and what his drive level may be.

As said, you will find a lot of repeats in working pedigrees, there are a lot of dogs in there that you could swing a dead pheasant and hit  But again, I feel that the quality of the breeder and their knowledge are just as important, if not moreso, than a lot of "names" in the pedigree