Feeling reall low...Surely we can't fail grade one!!

[nickycnc]

I've completed 5 weeks of grade one training with Darcy so far and we had a really bad session this morning. She ran off with the dummy and on the sit stay recall she ran off, she also barely looks at me when I'm heeling her (prefering to sniff the ground). The trainer says she has no respect for me which I find really upsetting . Since I started this training I have toughened up with her doing all the things he suggested, some simple things like not going on the sofa, shutting her in her cage for short periods, he wanted me to gesture eat but I've done that before and thinks its pretty daft - he's really big on pack theory and I'm worried that I've been to harsh with my training and she's resisting my authority.

The trainer doesn't have a particular high opinion of cockers which I really wanted to change. Maybe I should have walked away when I found that out

I really don't know what to do next. I have now decided to stop giving her the undivided attention she currently gets in the hope she then starts craving for my attention and I can give it on my terms...help I'm so confused

[JohnW]

Nicky,

First thing is don't get upset about the trainers opinion, Any good trainer worth their salt would and should never make the training handler under their guidance feel unworthy.   Maybe you are not progressing any further due to the fact your trainer is not advising you on the correct handling skills. Plus all handlers and training persons make mistakes with their dogs, as the saying goes brush yourself down get up and try again. Perseverance is the best method aswell as positive thinking, and in your case maybe a new trainer. 

[JennyBee]

I agree - find a new trainer! Sounds like this one is stuck in the past . It's nothing to do with asserting authority or pack theory or anything else - plenty other trainers out there do just as well with more modern methods. And as for his opinion of cockers............

[nickycnc]

Thanks guys I know your right. I do feel I have to finish the course with him though (only 2 more weeks + the test).  It's more disheartening as the other 4 people have made visable progress, where as I seem to be going backwards, which partly makes me think its me.
He (the trainer) is a member of the gundog club and his initial talk although very pack leader theory was also anti adverse methods and firm but fair with loads of praise so I thought that was enough.  I'm seriously struggling to find a local trainer who doesn't want to dominate every dog.

[maggieann]

We all have bad days with our dogs. I don't really believe in the pack theory stuff, in fact I don't subscribe to any one theory, I kind of just use common sense approach. When we got our dog he had loads of issues - he hadn't been at all socialised, had no recall and couldn't even walk on a lead, on his first night with us he tried to attack both me and my aunt.   He is now a very loving, brilliantly behaved boy with very good recall, it took a lot of work, but that helped develop a good bond between us and one thing that really helped us was clicker training. So don't despair, you can make it work.  

[Top Barks]

You want your dog to look at you then you need to give it reason to do so.
Lighten up with your dog and enjoy Darcy.
Have you ever seen my lot and I'm as soft as muck with the lot of them but they jump through hoops for me.

[Helen]

how old is Darcy now?

They (and we) all have off days - I don't think not letting her on the sofa and gesture eating will help one little bit with her focus on you  

[nickycnc]

how old is Darcy now?

Shes just turned 2

You want your dog to look at you then you need to give it reason to do so.
Lighten up with your dog and enjoy Darcy.
Have you ever seen my lot and I'm as soft as muck with the lot of them but they jump through hoops for me.

Mark I think you need to relocate and spread the word further a field

Again, your right. I'm probably trying too hard and getting frustrated by appearing to be getting nowhere. What would be your top tip then for getting your dogs constant attention or am I asking for too much from her?

[BarbaraW]

Gee, it would be fab to train any breed of dog for 5 weeks and have him do exactly as you wish. Dennis will be 5 years old next week and I have been training him since he was 12 weeks old, I have travelled to competitions over 200 miles from my home, just to have Dennis sniff his way around a ring and totally make me wonder why I bothered to make the journey,  but I don't give up because, when he does it right I am so proud of him and you will be too with Darcy.  Good luck, I am sure you Darcy will make the grade.

[Nicola]

Rodaidh has distinctions in the grades one and two GC tests and he still has days where I wonder if I've ever taught him anything. A couple of months ago I was doing some training with him prior to his first shoot of the season and I sent him out to retrieve a dummy and he got to it, sniffed it and turned and trotted back to me and plonked himself down at my feet, I'm glad nobody was watching us cos I'd have been mortified   They do all have off days and some days nothing seems to go right but you just have to take it in your stride and try again another day.

I've never done any of that pack leader/rank reduction stuff with my dogs, Rodaidh and Caoimhe are as focussed on me as you'll get and they both sit, climb and drape themselves all over me on the sofa and I don't crate them to make them focus on me or eat before them etc. etc. I do make training fun and unpredictable for them though, it's more like playtime most of the time than formal training sessions. I don't expect them to stay focussed for extended periods in the beginning - after just 5 weeks training I'd only be doing 10-15 minute sessions max at a time and as they get older and progress more in their training they can keep going for longer periods. I do all their walking and training on their own while they're young so they get into the habit of focussing on me because I'm the most interesting thing there.

If you're already so far through the course I would probably finish the last couple of weeks and have a go at the test - even if you don't quite make the grade this time it doesn't matter, try to see it as a good practice session rather than putting pressure on you and Darcy to pass - but if you want to go on with the training after that (which I think you should!) I would look at finding another trainer who understands Cockers, there are plenty of gundog trainers out there who work and compete them. Where are you based? Depending on where you are I might be able to recommend a trainer.

[spanielcrazy]

Gee, it would be fab to train any breed of dog for 5 weeks and have him do exactly as you wish.

Wouldn't it be great?! Except that it''s not a truth and will only result in the kind of frustration you are experiencing  A 7 week course is merely an arbitrary number designed to give you the tools to (try to) train your dog, and it does not mean the dog has necessarily become solid on all the excercises. Having a test at the end, and a "graduation" is strictly a human thing, we do like to have pomp and ceremony at the end of something  but it doesn't mean the end of training, or that the dog is ready to go out into the working world.

Learning in a dog is a series of ups and downs, the reason for the term "learning curve" is that there is a downside on both ends of a curve 

If you feel you and your dog will be to pressured by a "test" at the end of the course, don't go! Neither you nor your dog will learn anything (nor want to  ) if you are feeling pressured and stressed. Get the emotion out of it; take a break if necessary. You and your dog will both learn more and be more receptive if you are learning out of a sense of fun , joy and eagerness to explore.

Here is a really good article:


http://www.clickingwithcanines.com/id15.html

[black taz]

don't worry, Taz and i failed grade 1.  When i joined the training group, the trainer told me he could train any dogs to recall and that i was far too soft on Taz.  After week 6 and still not much progress on the recall front we had a 1-2-1 session where he said he would train Taz to recall for me, it was only supposed to be 1/2 hour.  2 hours later, he had still not managed to recall Taz, they were not totally **** off with each other and we called it a day.  The next session he announced to the group that Taz was the most stubborn dog he had ever come across (nothing to do with his bad training tactics).  The following week we failed grade 1.  

He was really harsh with all the dogs and treated his own dogs as tools (ie: to hunt/retrieve) rather than pets.  

Taz's recall has improved with positive training and making it beneficial for him to come back to me (either for a treat or game) but he does on occasions have his stubborn hat on and refuses to move let alone come back to me and I have to just sit it out as i know that if i move towards him he will bolt the opposite way.  When he does this i have now started to throw treat to him gradually moving them closer then when he is almost near start playing with his squeaky ball and have a game with him - probably not how some trainers would do it but it usually works for me.


JYou just need to find a method that works for you and if you are not happy with the method the trainer uses then the dog will pick up on that anyway.

[Caticus]

Just give it time, don't doubt yourself and DON'T go down the Getting tough route. I've been there with my eldest - saw a behaviourist when I got him as a rescue who's methods made him worse! I ended up doing a full college course to try and sort him out - one thing I knew though was that he had the instinct to work, even though he is show strain, same with the pup I got 3 yrs ago from the same breeder.
I have been ridiculed and laughed at with my show cockers trying to train them in gundog work - I had a bet with a gundog guy in the end and that prompted me to look at the gundog tests
I have had really awful sessions with them - "whoops there's a bird mum, I'm going" to "If you want the dummy, you get it". To cut a long story short - They are both little stars now and passed their gundog tests today, (see other post) one at grade 1 and one at grade 2. I trained them privately with an excellent positive trainer and just booked the tests when they were ready - its taken at least 6 months until I was confident they were 100% -even then one of them refused to retrieve 3 days before the test and I thought I'd blown it.
Have patience and enjoy your training, it will come, and the satisfaction of a cocker when he gets it all right is brilliant so don't give up.

[JohnW]

The one thing I have picked up on with my training and handling is to maybe try different trainers not just the one, and pick the brains of more experienced handlers, take what is right for you from each of them and eventually you will form your own method of training. My lad will retrieve all day if i allowed him but he can easily be distracted on things like sit and stay, this is more down to me and being a bit green also, yesterday for example a trainer gave me some very sound advise on something as silly as my body language and voice tone and BINGO he then did what i was asking of him. Just keep it lighthearted and try not to get frustrated as dogs will sense this and then they will be stressed also. Don't worry too much though just enjoy it. We are in the same boat.  

[nickycnc]

Thanks everyone for all your words of support. I went out this morning with Darcy and played loads of hide and seek and turning back and going the other way if she got too far. It made a nice change not to be verbally nagging at her.

If you're already so far through the course I would probably finish the last couple of weeks and have a go at the test - even if you don't quite make the grade this time it doesn't matter, try to see it as a good practice session rather than putting pressure on you and Darcy to pass - but if you want to go on with the training after that (which I think you should!) I would look at finding another trainer who understands Cockers, there are plenty of gundog trainers out there who work and compete them. Where are you based? Depending on where you are I might be able to recommend a trainer.

I do want to keep going but think that I should spend more time looking for my next trainer and be prepared to travel a little further for it. I live near the A1 between cambs & beds so if you can think of anyone nearish to that then yes i'd really be pleased to hear from you