Your advice please... retrieving

[hanandhen]

Henry is doing very well with his new grown-up gundog dummy We have been clicker training this since before Christmas, and he has now graduated from only retrieving in the house to my parents' back garden.

However I am aware that at some point we are going to have to go out there into the wider world.... not yet, as I don't want to undo our work by having him distracted, but at some point soon.... I think my landlord might object to holding shoots in my kitchen after all

Trouble is I'm a bit limited as to where we can go! I don't think there is a suitable park where I can go in my home town and I can't think of any open fields either that aren't full of bunnies Also, I'd much rather not have an audience as lots of people work their dogs around here and I'm sure they will all laugh and point at me and my fancy spaniel....

So, any suggestions for what would be a suitable environment for a first outdoor retrieve?

Thanks!

[spanielcrazy]

If you can find a fenced in tennis court that is empty those are great for training. Ditto childrens playgrounds that are fenced. (This time of year is best for finding them empty  ) Just keep your eyes open for creative ideas for training places

You can also use long lines in open areas. You can string together two of them for longer retrieves (More than that and I just end up getting tangled up  )

You might want to get this book too:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Urban-Gun-Dogs-Training-Flushing/dp/1594110506/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262268933&sr=1-1

I wouldn't give a thought to other people seeing you train; let them think what they want; the only thing that matters is you and your dog. (Although on second thought maybe avoiding other people might not be a bad idea, that way you don't have to listen to their un-asked for, priceless "advice" on what you are doing wrong  )

[hanandhen]

Sounds like a plan, I really must invest in a couple of books after next payday! I like the sound of that one (although actually I'm in a very rural area ) and a clicker training book too. I have an old one someone lent me, but that is more for the US and puppies as well - I really need a remedial training book... wonder if there is such a thing (which also uses positive methods!)

Henry blotted his copybook very slightly this afternoon, we did one retrieve in the kitchen and he spat the dummy out halfway and stood over it, giving me that 'play with me!' look  So I just stood quiet and looked back, and he picked it up again and brought it all the way back. My fault for mistiming the game I think.

So I think we will give it a rest for a day or two now and then return to it - I have been being very careful not to overdo it but maybe he is getting a bit bored anyway. Or maybe he ws just having a norty moment because he was all wet aftr our walk and wearing his jumper... who knows?

[moola]

I've been working on this today too as I was getting a bit worried that my pickle pants had gone 'orrrf' the idea of collecting something.  I was advised to just make it SO exciting (really get pup all fired up) and then just limit it to 3 throws. Done in the garden. He did brilliantly and was very happy with himself.  Tomorrow I will try just  one throw on a walk - if he doesn't go for it then I'll try again in a few days time with treats.

I'm also mixing up what he retreives - so sometimes it is a ball, then a ring, then a pair of socks or the puppy dummy....to help keep the interest there.

Don't worry about what people think - you have to start training somewhere .  Anybody who knows anything about training and has ever tried, will know exactly what you're doing and knows what you are up against.  Everyone has been through it!

[hanandhen]

Good idea about mixing it up - Henry has two different dummies, one canvas and one floating rubber one, so can vary it there. Sadly all his toys have been eaten I really need to limit it more as well, I was trying to get my sister to take some pics this morning so we probably overdid it a little bit.

We are going to a puppy gundog training class in the new year - eeeep ! At the very least I can guarantee that the others need not worry about having the worst dog there, I should hire out out services to make others look good

[spanielcrazy]

I have an old one someone lent me, but that is more for the US and puppies as well - I really need a remedial training book... wonder if there is such a thing (which also uses positive methods!)

Don't rule out puppy books, the steps and breakdown of excercises are basically the same as for starting an older dog  And trust me you will at some point (or more  ) find that you have to go back to basics for a bit; almost everyone goes through it, part of the learning curve  The only real difference between puppy and adult training is the amount of time spent learning each thing (adults can do it a bit longer, but not really that much, watch out for boredom); and the pace at which the dog learns, but that is individual.

As far as US books; while the rules for trials and such are different, the training is still the same so don't throw out the baby with the bathwater 

[hanandhen]

I have an old one someone lent me, but that is more for the US and puppies as well - I really need a remedial training book... wonder if there is such a thing (which also uses positive methods!)

Don't rule out puppy books, the steps and breakdown of excercises are basically the same as for starting an older dog  And trust me you will at some point (or more  ) find that you have to go back to basics for a bit; almost everyone goes through it, part of the learning curve  The only real difference between puppy and adult training is the amount of time spent learning each thing (adults can do it a bit longer, but not really that much, watch out for boredom); and the pace at which the dog learns, but that is individual.

As far as US books; while the rules for trials and such are different, the training is still the same so don't throw out the baby with the bathwater 

All good advice, thank you The only reason I was a bit unsure about the US book is that it seems much more geared to rough shooting than driven shoots, but it does have good advice so I am using it. The trouble is with the puppy books, they tend to say things lke 'On no account let your puppy do this...' but they don't seem to have chapters entitled 'OK, so you let your puppy do x for the first two years of its life.... now you have to do this...' There's a gap in the market there I feel

We just did three retrieves in the garden, mixed it up by using the floating dummy alternately and by going to the opposite end of the garden to normal, and by hiding as well as throwing the dummy, and he was a pro and definitely would have liked it if we'd kept going (always good to leave them wanting more!)

I may be brave and take the dummy on our walk today for ONE go.... I think I have found a sufficiently boring field to try this on Am just cooking up some liver which should catch his interest enough to bring it back I hope!

[moola]

good luck HH!
It can be a rough start sometimes - our 3yr lab didn't seem overly interested in retrieving for absolutely yonks and we had begun to think that maybe, despite his pedigree, he just wasn't up for it.  But, we made sure we limited stuff (v. diff with a little boy running around the garden wanting to 'play'!), mixed it up etc.  A year on down the line and on his first shoot this week he picked up 3 pheasants and a snipe.

[moola]

pah silly silly me.  What on earth was I thinking!  Just back from a session and had mixed success and no wonder.  Pippin was dropping his retrieves on the return.  Not all, but most.  Then as my husband pointed out....I was treating. So basically the moment he saw my hand go in my pocket, he dropped the ball/dummy/kong and came back for the goodies.  I knew all this - we went through it last year with our other dog - I cannot believe I didn't remember.  He was doing perfectly well in the garden yesterday without any food so why I went out with it 
I also forgot to peep him to return to me -so there wasn't that extra incentive.
He's unsteady but I guess I'll work on that later - at least he's been enthusiatic

[spanielcrazy]

the US book is that it seems much more geared to rough shooting than driven shoots,
[/quote]

Then I think this is the book you want:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1861263961/ref=sib_rdr_dpp?ie=UTF8&no=266239&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st=books

(it is available in hardback, the reason I gave that link is that you can see the table of contents. I also do recommend the first one of Martin Deeleys books "Working Gun dogs")

The thing about doing it yourself from books is that you have to sort of cobble together conflicting advice (which there will be loads of) and do what works for you and your dog. And be aware that with the first dog you train you will make mistakes, but they are valuable too, for both you and the dog to learn  Just remember the golden rule: Don't confuse the dog! (no matter how confused you are!  )

Of course there is no substitute for seeing it all in action and talking to others. The training for most all gundog work, be it rough shooting, driven shoots or field trials is basically the same, the requirements for the dog are pretty much the same. I highly recommend going on a couple of shoots without the dog and just observing, asking questions and learning the etiquette for yourself and the dog (so that when you do finally bring the dog you can both keep the eejit level to a minimum  ) You'll also see that all the dogs and handler are not perfect so it will help you relax more 

You might also find some of these book reviews helpful to navigate the amount of info out there

http://spanieljournal.com/bookshelf.html

[hanandhen]

pah silly silly me.  What on earth was I thinking!  Just back from a session and had mixed success and no wonder.  Pippin was dropping his retrieves on the return.  Not all, but most.  Then as my husband pointed out....I was treating. So basically the moment he saw my hand go in my pocket, he dropped the ball/dummy/kong and came back for the goodies.  I knew all this - we went through it last year with our other dog - I cannot believe I didn't remember.  He was doing perfectly well in the garden yesterday without any food so why I went out with it 
I also forgot to peep him to return to me -so there wasn't that extra incentive.
He's unsteady but I guess I'll work on that later - at least he's been enthusiatic

Moola, this is why I love the clicker - I click at the moment the dummy hits my hand - if he spits it out, no click, no treat. After he's missed out the first time, he remembers what he is meant to do to get his click. We were able to use it to build up, so at fist he was getting a click just for picking it up, then for bringing it back any old how, then I was sat on the floor so it was easy for it to go into my hand, now I'm standing and it has to go into my hand for his sweetie. We had already done target training ages ago at an obedience class so it was a matter of building on that - a bit unorthodox I think but it seems to be having the desired effect. With Henry he would run round and round waving stuff for as long as you liked, but never brought anything back But he gets that dummies are for bringing back for a click and a sweetie (I think).

With Henry it's all about overcoming the distraction of his nose... last time we tried it outdoors he would get halfway through a retrieve and then shoot off to smell something, and forget what he was meant to be doing

SC - I should go on a shoot minus the dog, you're right! At the moment I keep reading about what the dogs are meant to do, and how high the standard is meant to be and well... eeep is the word I'll look that book out and see if I can get out one weekend too - also I think this class will help even though I am a bit scared

[Karma]

Agree about the clicker... it's how we have trained the obedience retrieves.... Honey knows that she doesn't get the click unless the dumbbell touches my hand, no matter how many treats I may have with me!! 

[Top Barks]

Clicker trained Bayley and Douglas to retrieve to hand but Alfie's so keen I never needed to as it is something he does naturally.

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

Clicker trained Bayley and Douglas to retrieve to hand but Alfie's so keen I never needed to as it is something he does naturally.

you can tell him and Jack are related Jack also adores retrieving  

had to use the clicker to get Brie to retrieve anything she hadnt found dead, started off by teaching her to hold things until I asked her to give me them, then to pick them up and give them to me, then to run out ofter it pickit up and bring it to me, then to remain steady while I threw it. Taught her the whole thing backwards

[moola]

OOO  I see what you mean HH - I can see how that works.  Good to know - if I can't get him to do the job properly the 'traditional way' I'll certainly try a clicker.  My trainer who is a gundog lady (but also obedience and agility) advocates mixed methods - she has had brilliant success with her dogs refining particular commands . Thanks for the tip!