Retrieving

[MUDDYBOOTS]

Does anybody have any ideas how I can train Benson my 10mnth working cocker to retrieve.Presently he is very keen to run out to a dummy or tennis ball,picks it up cleanly,then he will either return to about a meter from me and run out again and start running about with it,or he will return to me and drop it a couple of feet away.I have found that if I throw it into long grass so he has to find it then he is more likely to bring it back and drop it by me because he seams to love this and is desperate for me to throw it again.
People have suggested sitting with my back to a wall or in a narrow alleyway so he Carnot run past me but he will then just stop short and run out again with it until he gets tiered and will then stop and start chewing it.
Have also tried two of the same,throwing one,other as a bait to get him back but doesent make much difference.His recall is very good and he flies back to me on the whistle without a dummy but with a dummy he doesn't seam to hear it.

Have haired that you can train the retrieve backwoods IE teach him to hold first,has anyone ever tried this and if so how is it done and were you successful.

How long does it take to teach a good retrieve on average,any help or advice would be appreciated thanks .

[Sarah1985]

I taught it backwards with Dexter. It does work but it takes a long while. I tried getting him to hold it but for some reason we hit a mental block on that. My trainer recons it because some dogs have issues with the exchanging of items, supposedly its not natural for them (also Dexter was a resource guarder)

However with the right toy he happerly pick it up off the floor (right by my feet) which I clicked and rewarded, then i increased the duration. Then I seperately taught him to put his head into a plastic bucket by throwing treats in. Once both these trick were solid i had him pick up the toy and then asked for "bucket" and he stuck his head in to get the treat and dropped the toy. So i gave him masses of praise. Then I worked on increasing the distance of the fetch and also moved to a smaller bucket. Then i got it to hand by moving the small bucket away at the last min and the toy hit my hand so I gave masses of praise.

Basicly I fumbled my way through but got there in the end.

[supergirl]

Whilst Misha & Roles are show cockers they will both retrieve, but I taught the basics in a very small space (indoors) with a big bowl of treats and a clicker before progressing to outdoors.  By being indoors, there are no distractions, plus I would only throw the dummy a very small distance, to begin with just a few feet,  and they soon realise that all the treats are for them if they do it right.  Then progressed to the garden, again another small space but with more distractions.  Each time it will seem like the dog has taken a step backward in the training, and will run about and not return straight back with the dummy, but eventually it does click.

The problem I have is getting Roly to hold onto the dummy and deliver it to my hand - we're about 50% and have been for a while, just don't seem to be able to crack that one yet.

[Karma]

Although we have taught retrieve in the obedience arena rather than strictly working, we have had good success teaching it backwards (using a clicker).

The first step was to teach a hand target... so you get the dog to touch your hand with their nose.  Clicking and treating as you improve upon this.  You need this to be VERY solid before moving on, as it is the foundation....
Then encourage interest in the dummy/retreive object.... click and treat sniffing it... then only for picking it up.... then for picking it up and holding it for a length of time...
Once the dog is comfortable holding the item (not playing with it) and perhaps even moving around.... encourage them to come to your hand target.... if he already has a habit of dropping short, it may help initially to click and treat as he starts to come to you (but before he drops it).
Eventually you should be able to build so that he brings the item to you and touches your hand without dropping the item... once this is solid, you can introduce a "give" or "dead" cue for releasing the object.

The key with this is to time the click when the item is securely in his mouth... this prevents the potential problem (more common when you use treats or another high value reward to train this) of dropping the item early in anticipation of the treat... only once he is reliably holding the item against your hand target should you start to think about a "give" command - in his mind a retrieve must involve keeping hold of the item! (It doesn't matter that he will drop the item as soon as there is a click... as it is the click which will reinforce the correct behaviour (keeping hold)). 

The other option is to train the retreive in a very small area, so he can't run off with it...

Honey has a very good retreive (except when it comes to tennis balls, when she is still reluctant to give them up, but that's a tennis ball specific issue, and is improving greatly using the above method!) - our obedience instructer was very impressed on Saturday at how easily she transferred her knowledge to other items, happy retreiving several different things... 

[MUDDYBOOTS]

Thank you very much for your replies ,I notice that you all use clicker training to train your dogs which is something that I have never tried.Presumably I would have to learn how to clicker train to use any of these methods

When I was teaching cloe to retrieve it took me about twelve months to get her to bring a dummy to me and even now she just runs up to me and thrusts it into my hands.After trying lots of different things I finally got her to give me the dummy by constantly throwing a tennis ball for her in the park but never taking it from her,just letting her bring it to me and put it in my hands when she wanted me to throw it again.When she really trusted me with the tennis ball I took it from her, placed a dummy 15 yds away and sent her for it,and as she ran back to me I held up the tennis ball with one hand and she thrust the dummy into my other hand.Lots of praise and I threw  the tennis ball as her reward.Then I gradually did more dummy retrieves before she got her reward,the tennis ball.

Benson is almost 11 months now and when you watch training videos most cocker's who are being trained to work as gundogs seam to already have a good retrieve at his age and are moving on to other things so I was hoping it was not going to take me as long to teach him as it took me to teach Cloe.

Anyway I took Benson to a well respected local trainer today and he was kind enough to give me a mini one to one lesson on retrieving but he seamed a bit rough with him,rougher than I really felt confortable with TBH although I suppose a lot of people do,and it started me thinking perhaps you have to train gundogs like this,in which case it is not really for me.

I suppose my question is,I know you all train your working cocker's with kind reward based methods but are there times when you have to put a bit of pressure on your dog.

[riotous_uk]

can I just assure you that you do not need to be rough on your dog in order to train it to be a gundog. I'm not and neither are the folks I train with....we all use positive methods (as does my trainer) and yes I do use the clicker as well. Must be doing somethign right as one of my dogs has been invited to go beating on shooters day at the end of the season...not bad considering the gamekeeper has only seen her work once!

I would try and find a toy that you dog really likes and just use this for training the retrieve, with it never being around at other times. Make a big fuss when you get it out, and finish the session whilst the dog is keen. The migrator toys were very useful in getting my reluctant SWD to retrieve, but others go nuts for tennis balls, rabbit skin dummies, Kong Snuggle wubbas and so on.

I did have one dog (none gundog breed) that was so reluctant to retrieve, she was taught to do it for her brekkie...no retrieve, no brekkie. She soon got the idea.

[hanandhen]

Depends what you mean by 'pressure' - yes I will use a sharp tone of voice or even a scary growl of 'leeeeave it!' with Henry when he is not playing the game (ruddy bunnies! ), but generally his training is positive. He needs to pay attention to me, yes, but I want him to enjoy our work. Most of our training is done through play, for example the stop whistle is being taught with his favourite ball, he is learning to stop and drop when I hold up the ball, at the same time I blast the whistle, and in time we won't need the ball anymore, just as we no longer need a clicker and treats for every single retrieve these days.

My trainer is very good, I have learnt a great deal from her, and she is very much about reward based training - she is also someone who works her own dogs. If you are in reach of Suffolk, I would give her a try - Sofia Taylor at On The Scent dog training  I go to see her every 4-6 weeks for a 1-2-1 session. Henry is a rescue dog, so I was really keen to find a trainer that would be positive, as I don't know how he's been trained in the past and how he might react to a harsh trainer (and I don't feel comfortable with overly harsh training).

[Wendy G]

I had a worker that would not retrieve, he would mark the retrieve, go out to it when sent but would not pick it up.
As I wanted to go beating with him this did not unduly worry me (I also had his ½ brother who was a great retriever).
However after a few outings he started picking up shot birds and after that he would retrieve any game (but still not dummies)
So don't despair he might just be a late developer

[MUDDYBOOTS]

Thanks again for your help and reassurance,Benson is very very keen to retrieve its the giving it back he has problems with ,however I took a couple of tennis balls out with me on his walk this mourning and threw one for him to retrieve then as he came back with it just as he got to me dropped the other ball on the ground and he dropped the ball he was retrieving next to it.Lots of praise and threw another retrieve for him and he brought it straight back,did this a few more times and each time he brought the ball back so seam to be making some progress.Also let him carry one of the balls around with him for a bit and he started coming back to me on the recall whistle with it in his mouth (but dropping it when he got to me).

Hanandhen do you mind me asking how you trained Henry to hold the dummy,the trainer last night tried to force the dummy into Bensons mouth which is one of the things I did not really like,Benson was having non of it and would not open his mouth.

[Sarah1985]

Hanandhen do you mind me asking how you trained Henry to hold the dummy,the trainer last night tried to force the dummy into Bensons mouth which is one of the things I did not really like,Benson was having non of it and would not open his mouth.

Its that sort of "training" thats liable to make Benson unwilling to collect a dummy. 

Holding can be taught with a clicker if you fancied giving clicker training a try. You just offer a really exciting toy to him (either off the floor or from your hand). When he takes it click and treat. After hes got it Extent the amount of time he holds it for by withholding the click for a split second longer each time. Till he will hold it until you ask for a drop.

Then add the verbal que.

I dont know any none clicker ways Im afraid as you need a way of rewarding while Benons got something in his mouth, otherwise he'll think your rewarding the drop

[hanandhen]

Putting the dummy in the mouth is what I have always heard called a trained retrieve, it is something I have done with Henry but you need a really sensitive touch to do it. If you use any force at all then all that will do is put the dog right off.

What I did once Henry had started bringing the dummy back reliably was to delay the click a little more each time - I always clicked at exactly the point the dummy went into my hand while still in his mouth so he knew that is where the dummy had to go. If he ever dropped it, I would say nooooooo in a drawn out, gently questioning tone (hope that makes sense!) which is his cue to try again, so he knew that dummies hitting the floor gained him nothing.  Once he had got that, I would sit on the floor and get him to retrieve then put my hands behind my back so he had to hold the dummy, only for a few seconds at a time to begin with, then gradually building up the time he held the dummy for.

Hope that makes sense!

ETA you can use the word 'yes' as a reward marker in the same way as a clicker, but a clicker is probably better as it is a unique sound. I use 'yes' sometimes if I can't find the clicker

[Nicola]

I don't use harsh methods to train my dogs but I am firm with them and very strict about their training. Particularly with Caoimhe as she's hopefully going to start competing soon from day one everything has been geared towards this so there's an awful lot of stuff I don't do with them or don't let them do as pups. I don't use clickers or treats past the puppy basics stage, it's my own preference and the work itself is rewarding enough for them, but I'm never rough with them. They live for their training and working and their bond with me is paramount, we won't work well as a team if they don't trust me. Rodaidh is very well trained and a great worker, he was out around 3 days a week last season and will be again this year but he's a sensitive dog and would never take harsh or rough handling, he'd shut down and not do anything.

Has Benson been allowed to pick up and carry stuff around and play casual fetch up to now? Just that most working Cocker pups nowadays have a pretty strong 'pick up and hold' instinct and generally if they start to mess around with and drop retrieves it's because they've learned to do this somewhere along the line - usually because they've been allowed to pick up and carry toys around and then drop them when they want, play casual fetch and because their owner may have been too keen to take things from them. I'm not saying you do this but I've seen folk training pups overdoing the retrieving and practically snatching things out of their mouths and it makes me wince as it's a great way to put the pup off coming back so you get that coming halfway back and running around in circles behaviour. You're doing the right thing now by not being too quick to take the ball from Benson, try to get him coming back and walking alongside you while still carrying it - as you blow the recall whistle turn and start to walk away so that he follows you and doesn't get a chance to drop it in front of you. Can you do this in an enclosed area which means that he can't start running around or circling? Some sort of alleyway closed off at one end is ideal as he hasn't really any option but to come towards you and follow you if you walk away.

I would also work on his general recall and make sure he's happily coming back to you at all times, this is the first thing I do with a pup and it means that once they do start retrieving work its second nature for them to come back to me no matter what they're carrying. Don't overdo the retrieving either, with mine I start proper retrieving work at about 6 months old and to begin with they get maybe 2 or 3 retrieves 2 or 3 times a week and that is plenty to keep them keen and by 12 months they're on to more complex retrieving and cold game. With Benson I'd not do it every day, keep sessions short and fun and always end on a high note - quit (for the day) while you're ahead is a good mantra

I never pick up anything my dogs have retreived and then dropped on the ground, if they did this as pups (although they haven't tended to) I'd take a step back and encourage them to bring the object to me again. If they're going to be working they can't get into the habit of dropping things, Rodaidh has retrieved an awful lot of rabbits and birds that have been pricked but not killed when he's working so dropping them on the ground is not an option. The method Hanandhen has just posted about sitting on the floor and building up the holding time gradually is similar to what I would do to reinforce the hold.

[harveyroan]

I'm glad I've read this as my Harvey is doing a similar thing. I've been to see a gundog trainer who has told me I really need to discipline my dog as he doesn't respect me (which I think may mean he doesn't fear me). He also forced the ball into his mouth and told me to hold it in his mouth. I know my dog needs some discipline if I'm going to do working tests and take him shooting but I'm not keen on the harsh approach and never have been. Usually a toned down growly voice or Ah AH gets the message over. Harveys training has been coming on nicely but I'm sure I have made some mistakes along the way as I've never trained a dog before. One problem I have is that Harvey will retrieve a thrown ball or one I have dropped on route and bring it me back but spit it out (In anticipation for the treat/reward) but if I thrown a ball a few feet from me he does the running around or lays down and starts chewing it. His recall is brilliant most of the time but occasionally I think new intresting smells are distracting him (he's just over 5 months now).

I now know where I've gone wrong but hopefully he's still young enough to forget the mistakes

[hanandhen]

If I have learned one thing in the last 18 months, it's that you can't force a cocker to do anything