CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: Firestorm on February 11, 2022, 11:16:03 AM
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As this is our first cocker spaniel we keep coming up with issues we have not experienced with other breeds we have had so here is our next dilemma. When taking our 4 month puppy out for walks he would constantly pull on the lead zig zagging all over the place. Rearing up wanting to play with everyone and dog who passes walking him was a nightmare. We decided to take him to puppy training classes and after 8 weeks he will walk to heel in the house, garden and on the quiet road outside the house. But as soon as we venture out of his comfort zone he reverts back to pulling and wanting to play with everyone and everything. We have tried all the training techniques when out but he just ignores all the cues and treats. Far too interested in smells, what’s going on around him and what he can pick up and eat. Are we expecting too much from him at 6 months, or have we got an over boisterous puppy. Even at puppy classes he was the most vocal and boisterous puppy in the class but picked up all the training very quick. Anyone had similar experience with their puppy.
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You have got a typical cocker spaniel puppy. :005: :005:
The zig zagging is a characteristic trait.
I tried to get my puppy to walk to heel and used to get exasperated and frustrated. Now, I am starting to relax a little and not expect her to walk glued to my knee. She IS a 7 month old working cocker and the world is so exciting for her. She is still only a baby and there are so many interesting things out there for her.
I have priorized what is really important to me and that is recall. When out off lead she has very good recall and she is good with other dogs as she comes away when called.
She still jumps up when people approach her and I try to get her to sit before they pass but whilst she is on the lead that is difficult, even with treats. Strangely enough, when off lead and I see people approach, I can call her to me and she stays focused on me until they pass ( treats help this time ;) )
My Maisie has been a very challenging puppy but I know she will settle down in time.
There are numerous threads on pulling and puppy biting on COL so they may reassure you that you don’t have a over boisterous puppy - just a happy curious friendly boy. :luv:
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You could be describing my puppy!! She knows how to walk to heel and also knows I don't like her pulling, but as soon as she's on to a scent or there's something more interesting than me in the distance (usually a pigeon) - it's all out of the window.
We're also doing training classes and she's an absolute nightmare in the waiting room choking herself trying to get to other dogs, jumping up, and generally being a pest. When we get into the hall, she's an obedient angel picking up everything quickly and even being used as a demonstration dog (much to everyone who saw her in the waiting room's astonishment).
Our gundog trainer said that teaching heel should be one of the first things a lab learns, but one of the last things for a spaniel. I'm hoping this means walking to heel (or at least not pulling) will get easier as they get older and are less easily distracted / over-stimulated. I think at this age, the world is just too exciting as Vixen says.
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Thanks for your replies it’s nice to know there are others experiencing the same problem with walking on a lead. We have now started another training class which is outdoors on a secure field and the trainer has said cocker spaniels take more time and to keep practicing.
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. When we get into the hall, she's an obedient angel picking up everything quickly and even being used as a demonstration dog
Well done Ivy :D :clapping: :clapping: What a little star :luv:
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I don't know if this is helpful advice or not, but I saw our gundog trainer at the weekend and he said 6-7 months is a good time to start with walking to heel on daily walks and this is what he demonstrated to get Ivy walking to heel and without pulling/lunging:
Use a slip lead and tug back (not hard) when she moves ahead of you, use a 'no' when she pulls, followed by tug back, and then 'heel' to get her back in position. Don't start walking again until she's in heel / sat next to you. Rinse and repeat every time she pulls forward. The 'no' should be in a firm voice, but not loud or shouting. Always follow with a command of what you would like pup to do instead. Calm and softly spoken 'good heel' for praise. No over the top or high pitched praise as this will just wind them up.
He said walks don't need to be long at this age and a 10min walk where pup is walking nicely to heel is better than a long walk with pup pulling the whole time and reinforcing the habit. Off lead games like retrieves and 'go find' the treat or toy should be enough to tire them out, even if it's just for 10mins. Long enough to work them, but not long enough that they get over-stimulated and lose focus on you and start looking for their own fun!
He did say Ivy is a very 'willful' pup (I wasn't offended as he also trains her mum and x2 others from the litter - all the same apparently!) so I can be a bit firmer in my corrections with her as she can take it, and it might take some time for her to stop pulling as it's been so rewarding for her in the past. He wouldn't recommend this technique for sensitive pups as the corrections will upset them so coaxing with treats would be better.
I used this technique on the last few walks and it does make walks a bit boring/frustrating, BUT it did work most of the time...I think it's all about consistency and we're going to carry on for the next few weeks and see if it makes a difference! I'll let you know how it goes!
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Use a slip lead and tug back (not hard) when she moves ahead of you, use a 'no' when she pulls, followed by tug back, and then 'heel' to get her back in position. Don't start walking again until she's in heel / sat next to you. Rinse and repeat every time she pulls forward. The 'no' should be in a firm voice, but not loud or shouting. Always follow with a command of what you would like pup to do instead. Calm and softly spoken 'good heel' for praise. No over the top or high pitched praise as this will just wind them up.
I sort of use the above with Ash
Difference being I don’t tug back on the lead I just stop like a statue, I don’t say anything I just stand and wait for her to turn round and once she is back by my leg we walk again - her reward is walking forward again to her place where she is let off for a run etc. - she’s getting there
My problem is that she tugs as she wants to get to the fun bit of running with her pals, I am lucky that who I walk with is happy with the stop start method of a walk
Yes walks do get a bit boring and frustrating for us, but it works in the long run as long as you are consistent
I need to get Ash in town more on lead - we are off to look round car forecourts later today, so that will be good for her training
Wishing you all the best with heel walking, it’s practice and being consistent that gets you there
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Use a slip lead and tug back (not hard) when she moves ahead of you, use a 'no' when she pulls, followed by tug back, and then 'heel' to get her back in position. Don't start walking again until she's in heel / sat next to you. Rinse and repeat every time she pulls forward. The 'no' should be in a firm voice, but not loud or shouting. Always follow with a command of what you would like pup to do instead. Calm and softly spoken 'good heel' for praise. No over the top or high pitched praise as this will just wind them up.
I sort of use the above with Ash
Difference being I don’t tug back on the lead I just stop like a statue, I don’t say anything I just stand and wait for her to turn round and once she is back by my leg we walk again - her reward is walking forward again to her place where she is let off for a run etc. - she’s getting there
My problem is that she tugs as she wants to get to the fun bit of running with her pals, I am lucky that who I walk with is happy with the stop start method of a walk
Yes walks do get a bit boring and frustrating for us, but it works in the long run as long as you are consistent
I need to get Ash in town more on lead - we are off to look round car forecourts later today, so that will be good for her training
Wishing you all the best with heel walking, it’s practice and being consistent that gets you there
The tug back method is very old school, I know trainers still use it but I personally think its awful, it puts pressure on the neck and throat and can cause all sorts of damage. My dog’s ( thankfully) recovering from spinal surgery and although I‘ll probably never really know the cause of the problem, I‘d advise against doing anything that puts unnatural pressure on any part of the spine, particularly the neck, I wouldn‘t wish the first few weeks after the operation on any dog or its owner!
Walking to heel,particularly for cockers, is challenhging and needs patience but above all, consistency. I wouldn’t claim to having achieved it completely but I can live with how he walks now. Out of all the methods I tried out, that which Cazza has suggested worked best because the dog learns that walking nicely gets him where he wants to be. Only thing I would add, is to train it in as many places as possible and try to NEVER let him get away with pulling - I noticed Humphrey would automatically walk to heel in places where we‘d trained hard and the minute we moved somewhere else, he‘d be back to his old habit again. I also gave up continually saying „heel“, it either distracted him or literally went in one ear and out of the other, I‘ve no idea, but as soon as I shut up and just stopped walking, he seemed to respond better, - a case of actions speak louder than words! :shades:
You‘ll get there ;) but as many of here will testify, it does need time! Best of luck! :luv:
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Good thread, just what we need right now, thanks for the info.
Peanut is 13 months today and her lead walking is getting worse, she’ll pull like crazy if allowed. I really regret using a harness as I don’t think that’s done us any favours. Now gone back to slip lead for long walks and using the stop/start method, it’s slow but I find it works and is more engaging. We do a shorter distance in the same time and changing the route has stopped the initial pulling.
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I appreciate your comments on the tug back method Cazza and Jayne as I've been struggling with it a bit myself. It isn't a hard tug at all or a yank, I would never do that - it's more of a slight pull of the lead, but I still don't like doing it and have been worried about it breaking the bond between us (as well as it not actually being that effective!) In terms of it putting pressure of the neck, that's a concern too, but when she's pulling like mad and choking herself then that can't be good either. I've tried using a harness instead of collar/slip lead, but it makes the pulling much worse.
The thing is, she can walk nicely with just a simple 'heel' command and nothing else, but then she sees a bird and it's all out of the window and that's when the pulling/spinning/lunging starts. There's been quite a few times that I've found myself 'stuck' on a walk where I need to walk her home on lead, but her head is just gone and she can't focus on anything other than 'must. chase. bird' I have picked her up on occasion and carried her home as I didn't want to reinforce the pulling, but I must look like a madwoman!
I think we really need to tackle this bird obsession first, and then go back to heelwork as she can do it. I've been thinking about only taking her for a walk in the evening (when her feathered 'friends' have gone to bed) until we figure out a way to make ourselves more exciting than a seagull...
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I have never used a harness on Maisie, 8 months today :luv: I started with just a normal collar and lead. We now use a slip lead and like Sophie worried a bit about the pressure on her neck as she ALWAYS wants to be in front. I felt we were getting nowhere as she just didn’t seem to get the connection of gentle pull back when straining on the lead. I then started to turn round when she pulled and walk in the other direction but the amount of times we did it on a walk made me go dizzy :005: So instead of me turning round, as soon as she pulled I stopped and then guided her (with the lead) round to be where I wanted her. We have been doing this for several weeks now, really boring and I feel quite silly but yesterday it seemed something clicked with Maisie. When I stopped, she turned round by herself or walked backwards to be where I wanted her. :happydance: Just waiting for the penny to drop now that if she didn’t pull, she wouldn’t need to turn round at all :005:
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I appreciate your comments on the tug back method Cazza and Jayne as I've been struggling with it a bit myself. It isn't a hard tug at all or a yank, I would never do that - it's more of a slight pull of the lead, but I still don't like doing it and have been worried about it breaking the bond between us (as well as it not actually being that effective!) In terms of it putting pressure of the neck, that's a concern too, but when she's pulling like mad and choking herself then that can't be good either. I've tried using a harness instead of collar/slip lead, but it makes the pulling much worse.
The thing is, she can walk nicely with just a simple 'heel' command and nothing else, but then she sees a bird and it's all out of the window and that's when the pulling/spinning/lunging starts. There's been quite a few times that I've found myself 'stuck' on a walk where I need to walk her home on lead, but her head is just gone and she can't focus on anything other than 'must. chase. bird' I have picked her up on occasion and carried her home as I didn't want to reinforce the pulling, but I must look like a madwoman!
I think we really need to tackle this bird obsession first, and then go back to heelwork as she can do it. I've been thinking about only taking her for a walk in the evening (when her feathered 'friends' have gone to bed) until we figure out a way to make ourselves more exciting than a seagull...
Sounds to me like you need to train a "gone away" command which is a pretty standard working gundog command (mine is actually a leave that but it means same thing) it's a spaniel and even if it's a show version it will have a built in high prey drive, you won't stop it but you can change the outcome from chase to "leave it" and lots of reward for not chasing, reward the leave it with a ball chase in opposite direction (a break away) and your sorted 👍
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Thank you ips! A reliable 'leave that' outside would solve a lot of our problems.
We have a reliable leave trained in the house, but it could really use some work outside. I started out using 'ignore' and when she looks at me instead of the offending bird she got a treat/fuss, but I realise now that wasn't nearly as rewarding as the chase. The only thing I taught her to ignore was me in the end! I've started using 'leave that' now and rewarding with a tennis ball and that works some of the time, but not always. I bought a couple of rabbit fur balls the other day for 'go find' games and she goes mad for them so they may be the key! Will try them out on the next walk.
I often wonder if I'm training her or if she's training me?
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Thank you ips! A reliable 'leave that' outside would solve a lot of our problems.
We have a reliable leave trained in the house, but it could really use some work outside. I started out using 'ignore' and when she looks at me instead of the offending bird she got a treat/fuss, but I realise now that wasn't nearly as rewarding as the chase. The only thing I taught her to ignore was me in the end! I've started using 'leave that' now and rewarding with a tennis ball and that works some of the time, but not always. I bought a couple of rabbit fur balls the other day for 'go find' games and she goes mad for them so they may be the key! Will try them out on the next walk.
I often wonder if I'm training her or if she's training me?
The problem is that nothing trump's chasing birds, I trained it pretty much same as you, I actively hunted out pheasant and rewarded the none chase by chasing a tennis ball the opposite direction the theory is to reward not doing what they want ie a chase with what they want ie a chase but on your terms. Training a stop works similar dog hunts or quarters stops to command and is rewarded for stop by being released to hunt again....🙄
PS
There is a train of thought that a spaniel will comply better with a turn whistle than a stop as there is a better flow, 🙄
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Thank you for all your replies it has been very interesting reading. The training we recently completed used “cues” rather than commands, it relied on teaching your dog a cue (yes) to keep making eye contact with you then reward whilst walking on the lead by your side. This method was ok for dogs in the class that weren’t persistent sniffers, for Max it didn’t work as soon as he had any smells he pulled hard on the lead often rearing up to get to it. I have had many dogs in the past 50 years and all were trained on a slip lead or choker which was the norm. Yes it worked but now I wouldn’t want to risk doing any injury to my dog when there are other methods. So since asking the question I have incorporated a some of your advice. First I decided as he enjoys sniffing so much not to worry about trying to get him to walk nicely by my side. Then I used the stop method sometimes giving a little tug on the harness. After quite a few walks the rearing up stopped and the pulling lessened sometimes I get a loose lead for a couple of meters which he gets plenty of praise for. He has also recently started to look back at me occasionally checking to see if I was going to stop when he pulled. I have quite a way to go but there has been definite improvements.
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I have got Salty up to a similar standard as you describe in your last post - and am ecstatic about it
He is 3 now tho .... :005:
I use an extendable lead so he can run around more on the way out and then he comes by my side on the way back, without any call and trots along on a loose lead with a pine cone in his mouth looking very pleased with himself
The extendable lead means I can also make it very short which helps if he spots a bird (or anything else) and tries to pull.
I think I am winning but am not sure
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Hi,
Newbie here, We have used this great forum as a knowledge base for the last couple of months, and the great thing is, that any issues, there’s always loads who have had the same problem, it makes you feel like it’s not just us!
our female working cocker, Poppy is purely a family pet, she’s 19 weeks old, and we’ve nearly finished her initial training.
The training is not specific to cockers and whilst we’ve persevered with the training method for walking, and it’s shown a slight improvement over time, I was thinking of getting some more focused walking training when this finished.
Anyway, the method we are learning is based on loose lead, but stopping when she pulls, plus some training in getting Poppy to our side rather than in front and getting her to focus on us and our change of direction.
Anyway our trainer recommended using a harness, so I brought a no pull harness and after using if for the last 3 days we have seen a rapid improvement. We use the front (no pull connection) and it has completely stopped the lurches forward where she pulls on the lead and hangs with 2 front paws in the air, we still get a bit of side to side, but she seems to walk happily at my side for most of the walk now, I used to hate when she pulled so hard she would start breathing heavily. I don’t know wether this is a fluke and she was improving slightly already, but the walks are a lot less stressful now, probably for both of us!
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My girl has just gone into season and it doesn't seem fair to keep heeling her on a slip for the next 3 weeks so I've bought her a perfect fit harness. I'll give the front attachment a go as you recommend Stiilez and see how we get on.
I've been having a bit of a dilemma over whether to walk her or not as not fair on the local intact males, but I think one short walk a day at quiet times might be ok as long as she's never off lead and I pick her up if a male does approach so they don't get a chance to get a good sniff of her. She's already winding up our neighbour's lab who was whining at her through the (secure!) fence, poor thing!
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Interested to know how you got on Sophie?
We are several weeks in and it’s still going pretty well. I am going to continue lead training though to try to continue improvement
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Glad to hear it's going well for you :lol2:
It's really taken the edge off for us and has come at the right time as I've strained my right wrist and can't have any pressure on it from a naughty pup pulling for the next few weeks! I'm also able to hold the lead loosely in my left hand (with her still on the left) using the front attachment and she trots along happily.
It's been nice to have some more causal strolls where I'm not stopping every 2 seconds or carrying as many stinky sprats! I've also found she's not been as reactive to birds as she is on the slip, which is interesting! Maybe she feels more relaxed or she's sensing I'm more relaxed not in training mode.
I think you're right about continuing to lead train at the same time as using it as I can see it not being as effective or pull-proof for determined pullers.
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My girl has just gone into season and it doesn't seem fair to keep heeling her on a slip for the next 3 weeks so I've bought her a perfect fit harness. I'll give the front attachment a go as you recommend Stiilez and see how we get on.
I've been having a bit of a dilemma over whether to walk her or not as not fair on the local intact males, but I think one short walk a day at quiet times might be ok as long as she's never off lead and I pick her up if a male does approach so they don't get a chance to get a good sniff of her. She's already winding up our neighbour's lab who was whining at her through the (secure!) fence, poor thing!
When Ash came into season I walked her once a day and let her off lead but this was up a country lane and no other dogs / houses around
I also made sure I drove from the house so as not to leave a scent trail back to the house
Ash then had her spay and I put her on a harness and flexi lead so she could have a bit of freedom for the 2 weeks she wasn’t allowed off lead
Boy we had to go back to basics with lead walking when I put her back on the slip lead and 2 weeks now with being intense any time she is on lead (not letting my mind wander to anything else but concentrating on Ash) we have seen a vast improvement - but still a nightmare when she sees her best buddy so having to work on heel work with my friend and her dog now - thankfully the friend is fab and doesn’t mind the slow stop start walk to the fields
Best of luck with the season 🥰