CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: Heidi on August 09, 2007, 09:57:53 PM
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Myself and OH called down to see the pups today and pick one out. They won't be ready for another 2 weeks (24th August) but I wanted to pick one out and reassure myself about their surroundings, mother etc. The breeder is definitely a commercial breeder, with a good few springer spaniels and cocker spaniels. However, both the surroundings and dogs were well-cared for and all the dogs were happy and boisterous.
The mother of the pups was nice and healthy looking (beautiful clear eyes - I wanted to bring her home as well!!). She was also really happy and friendly with both myself and the owner and his wife - giving us the paw etc. The pups were fairly shy - perhaps a result of not being inside with humans all the time? But they seemed curious enough about myself and OH so were maybe just a bit wary of us newcomers. To be honest I can't imagine any other breeder having dogs that were any healthier or happier than the ones I saw this evening.
Anyway, my fears about the breeder have been allayed and I can now truly start planning for the arrival of Heidi on the 24th! :D
Thanks to all the posters on the commercial breeder post - it really geared me up for checking out where our puppy was coming from.
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While it is good that you are reassured - I'm not sure I would be at all happy tbh; commercial breeders are exploiting animals for their own financial gain, after all :(
More important though, did you see any form of certificates relating to health screening of the sire and dam? Just because the dam has clear eyes doesn't mean she isn't a carrier of PRA, and if the sire is as well, then the pups could go blind early in life :'(
If the puppies are kennelled, and don't spend much time inside, then you may find it harder to settle your pup at home with everyday noises like the washing machine; Molo and his litter were born and brought up in a corner the breeders kitchen, so he curled up and went to sleep when he heard the spin cycle of our machine for the first time :005: I think any pup would prefer to be one of the family, especially as their litter mates leave, rather than being housed in kennels outside :-\ Molo was the last pup to go, and he spent a week curled up on the sofa every evening with the breeder and her hubby :luv:
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While it is good that you are reassured - I'm not sure I would be at all happy tbh; commercial breeders are exploiting animals for their own financial gain, after all :(
So what about buying from people who have won more FT than you can shake a stick at. They are commercial breeders and have done an immense amount for both breeds, cockers and springers? Rytek and Chyknell are probably two of the most famous prefixes out there.
Heidi I would try not too worry too much if they ran a poll on here and everyone was honest I am sure that the % of people who did every single check you are supposed to do would be quite low.
I'm sure she will settle quite quickly, cocker puppies are amazingly quick and love a cuddle.
I'm sure your Irish lilt will sooth her, she will be unsettled at first its a big change for her she will be pining for her mum and littermates
But if you look back at some of the old threads you should find everything you need to make sure her first few days and nights arr as loving and reassuring as you can make them.
I hope she brings you great joy.
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While I wouldn't recommend buying from a commercial breeder I wouldn't worry too much about the pups being kept in a kennel as long as they receive adequate attention and socialisation with people. Rodaidh was kennelled at my gundog trainer's place (he bred him) until I got him at 6 months and he is absolutely fine, he took to living in the house like a duck to water and we've had no problems at all on that score. In fact he's the only one of my 3 who is not scared of the hoover ::) :005:
I wouldn't really call them I don't think they churn dogs out for the money. They breed good quality, true to type, trainable cockers with sound temperaments and good pedigrees (FTCh Chyknell Gold Star is Rodaidh's granddad). I'm not as familiar with the springers although of course I know of the Rytex lines.
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I'd like to see a commercial breeder with the Field Trial record of the Openshaws!! >:( Or selling a puppy to the royal household ::)
Theyare not typical commercial breeders they have a waiting list as long as your arm for a puppy very similar to the best of the show kennels except these are excellent proven working stock... whilst the working community are slow to take up testing this is something that is slowly happening with younger breeders. You can't fault their record for their wins can you and that makes them popular. >:( If you look on their website they have four FT champion stud dogs and NO DOGS FOR SALE. You'll never find that with a commercial breeder.
If your happy with your commercial breeder then fair enough but to be honest unlike the best of the show and the working kennels who are breeding their stock with a mind to achieving something special and have a good history of doing so a commercial breeder is only interested in one thing... your money. Ask to see the dogs health certificates and read up a little bit on the sort of puppy to choose, cockers should not be shy they are a gundog breed and should be curious to differing levels.
At the end of the day you can get more for your money from a reputable breeder from either the show or the working community but the choice has to be yours.
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i have actually had two dogs off Wendy...and they do advertise litters on the website when they have them they had a litter on their in February when i was looking for Lilly. The only reason i ended up with Lilly is because when I called they were both in the States and didn't return my call until I had been too see her.
I would be the last person in the world to knock either of them, as they let me have my beloved Badger....i was trying to get across the fact that not all commercial breeders are the spawn of the devil some of them are the best people you could possibly buy from.
So does that mean I'm posh now then if as me and Madge buy from the same breeder.
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So does that mean I'm posh now then if as me and Madge buy from the same breeder.
It'll take more than that love ph34r :005:
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Darling I'm from Cheshire it doesn't get more than that, one has stayed with the Laird Of Borthwick don't you know.
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While it is good that you are reassured - I'm not sure I would be at all happy tbh; commercial breeders are exploiting animals for their own financial gain, after all :(
So what about buying from people like Ian and Wendy Openshaw etc...who have won more FT than you can shake a stick at. They are commercial breeders and have done an immense amount for both breeds, cockers and springers? Rytek and Chyknell are probably two of the most famous prefixes out there.
That depends on your definition of Commercial Breeding really - as you will see from my comments on the other thread about this, I would not consider someone who is breeding to improve the breed as commercial breeders, as they are not the churning out of puppies for the pet market with no consideration for genetics etc ::)
Whether or not it is responsible breeding though, is another issue :-\ I would prefer to see working line dogs (especially proven working lines) only bred for true working homes; there really are not enough suitable pet homes for these special dogs ;)
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Hi Heidi,
Glad you were happy with what you found. Sounds like the mum had a nice temprement and with continued socialisation you will have a happy well adjusted pup.
As long as all the health checks are fine, you are happy with the breeders pedigree etc.
Good luck with your little girl. My first cat was called Heidi as she was always hiding (not my idea though ;) )
Em x
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I have had to edit nearly every one of these replies as some of you have mentioned a breeder by name!!! PLEASE do not mention individual breeder my name especially when you are tagging the words "commercial breeder" next to it, this is a PUBLIC forum that can be read anytime by the very people you are talking about.
Back to the topic and the question, Heidi are you buying a Working Cocker or a Show Type? and do you know the difference? from what you have described it sounds like Working Cockers which is fine if that is what you have set out to find, them being kenneled is fine too but regardless of the strain I still think you should be asking for evidence of some form of health testing.
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Goodness! Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "commercial breeder"?! I don't know - the dogs all seemed happy and healthy to me when I saw them and a happy dog and mummy is always a good sign where I'm concerned.
Perhaps there are some dodgy commercial larger-scale breeders out there, but the conditions the dogs I saw yesterday were kept in were fine.
As for the health, I asked all about eye problems, as one of the cockers we had when I was a kid went blind as a result of genetic eye illness. All was clear on that front. I know I should have enquired about kidney problems as well.
Is a healthy and happy puppy that was born and kept in a kennel really that worse than a puppy that was born and kept in a house? :-\
Edited to add: I should also say that the litter I saw yesterday was the only litter of cocker spaniel pups the breeder has at the minute. He only breeds a couple of litters of either cockers or springers each year, which at least shows that he's not that interested in making huge profits out of either breed. Like I said above, perhaps some posters have come across/ heard of unscrupulous larger-scale breeders, but just like all smaller-scale breeders don't carry out genetic testing on their breeding dogs to ensure the betterment of the breed, neither do all larger-scale breeders all run their dogs into the ground churning out puppies for profit.
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Hi Heidi,
Did the breeder show you the clear eye certificates for the Dam and Sire? This is something that can develop when the dog is older which is why breeders are moving towards the Optigen tests.
Like I said before if you are happy that is the main thing. Out of interest are they working or show cockers and are they KC registered?
Em
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As for the health, I asked all about eye problems, as one of the cockers we had when I was a kid went blind as a result of genetic eye illness. All was clear on that front. I know I should have enquired about kidney problems as well.
Unless both parents have been Optigen DNA tested for PRA with certificates to prove it, the breeder cannot possibly tell you that the eyes are clear with no problems. Please don't assume that because a breeder tells you there are no problems, that this is the truth - they may believe it themselves but unless they are DNA testing, they cannot possibly know. If you are talking about Working Cockers, then FN (kidney) testing is probably not relevant as FN does not appear to have been recorded in Working lines but PRA definitely has.
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Is a healthy and happy puppy that was born and kept in a kennel really that worse than a puppy that was born and kept in a house? :-\
If they are happy, healthy and well socialised, then probably not - but it takes great commitment on the part of a breeder to ensure that puppies housed outside are used to domestic noises and hussle and bustle :-\
Sadly, I do not think that you have found a reputable breeder, who is committed to the future of the breed; why does he breed his dogs every year? How does he chose the sires? Is he a member of a breed club? Does he show/work his dogs? If not, how can he know if they are good examples of the breed?
It sounds as if you have found someone who is breeding puppies for the pet market, and no matter how "nice" the conditions are for the dogs, this type of breeding can lead to health problems, temerament problems and contributes to the 000's of unwanted dogs every year >:(
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Coco was housed outside before I got her and you could not meet a better socialised pup than she became. She had been handled and played with by the breeder and her kids but she lived outside in a kennel with her mum and littermates so most of her socialisation happened once she came home - I really did not expect the breeder to get her used to all the usual domestic noises she would come across when she left. I have yet to find anything that fazes her so imo being kept in a house and socialised in the first 8 weeks is not the b all and end all. :shades: If you ask me the temperament and treatment when they are brought home has a lot to do with how they will react to all that stuff ;)
I know you do not believe in any form of commercial breeding Rachel but the fact is it is there and there are many different types of commercial breeder. Wanting to make some money from breeding does not make someone an evil puppy farmer imo :shades:
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it takes great commitment on the part of a breeder to ensure that puppies housed outside are used to domestic noises and hussle and bustle :-\
Excactly. I personally would never buy a puppy that has been living outside. ( And yes, I know, that some very reputable breeders also have puppies growing up in kennel premises, so it's not always a sign of "bad breeding"). Maybe I am a big softie :005:, but all my dogs live inside my house, as beloved pets, before, during and after their show/hunting careers and when I buy a puppy I want it to be well socialised and adjusted to normal life and household sounds before she/he comes to live with me. The first few weeks of the puppies life are very significant to it's future life. Far more important than is often thought about.
I really did not expect the breeder to get her used to all the usual domestic noises she would come across when she left. I
Well, it doesn't really take much from the breeder to do this if the puppies live inside. All you got to do is lead a normal life, and they get used to everything: hoover, tv, radio, doorbell, phones etc..
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People will always go to commercial breeders etc as they may not be able to find a litter from a "reputable" breeder that fits into their time scale. I would say that a commercial breeder is a better option than a puppy farm. I just think it's important that when people go down this route they find the best one they can and are informed as much as possible.
If Heidi is happy with what she has seen then it's her decision. My main regret for us is that we didn't know about Optigen testing, we have to face the possibility that this may happen. Even though we aren't going to breed from Bracken we had her eyes tested at a local BVA clinic. We know that she is clear on both of the tests at the moment.
We would like to breed dogs further down the line and when and if we do this, we will be finding a reputable breeder with good dogs of a show standard, with the aim that if she shows well and everything else is fine we will breed from her.
I know that some people may see that as irresponsible and deem me a Back yard breeder, but we will join the cocker club and be looking to improve the breed etc.
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I know you do not believe in any form of commercial breeding Rachel but the fact is it is there and there are many different types of commercial breeder. Wanting to make some money from breeding does not make someone an evil puppy farmer imo :shades:
You are right - I don't agree with any *commercial* breeding; but not because I think that well housed, well cared for commercial breeding is "cruel" in the same way as illegal puppy farming, but because it is totally unnecessary, and therefore irresponsible.
I don't understand why someone will buy a commercially bred pup which has been produced with no consideration to genetics, temerament or health screening; why not rescue a puppy from a rescue centre instead? :huh: They are both *unknowns* in terms of health, temerament and ancestry :-\
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I don't think you can say that all commercial breeders don't take temprement, health screening and genetics into account. We met both Brackens Dam and Sire and they both had lovely temprements. We wouldn't have got her if they didn't have.
It is very easy to generalise and make sweeping statements, again why I think in some instances you have to go on your feelings and make an informed decision.
Heidi has met the mum and is happy with her temprement and that of the puppies. We don't know the breeder or their circumstances, all we can do is guide Heidi with our own experiences.
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While it is good that you are reassured - I'm not sure I would be at all happy tbh; commercial breeders are exploiting animals for their own financial gain, after all :(
So what about buying from people who have won more FT than you can shake a stick at. They are commercial breeders and have done an immense amount for both breeds, cockers and springers? Rytek and Chyknell are probably two of the most famous prefixes out there.
i do worry about the overuse of some FTCH studs.... :-\
very rare to find a working cocker on here without Mallowdale Rackateer in it's pedigree - nothing against him, fantastic dog...but he does seem to be used an awful lot :-\
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If people who are trialling for a living had to live off their winnings they wouldn't be able to do it as it is so expensive nowadays.
Most actually have a few income streams including training, exhibitions, boarding,writing books, videos, stud fees and puppy sales. At the end of the day these people have to earn a living, and come on how many of us envy them the opportunity to have a nice lifestyle doing something they absolutely love doing.
I know i for one would be over the moon :D
Rackateer was Badgers sire, he was like a rocket and as sharp as a whip when out hunting so i can see why people want him as a stud dog especially if you do want to go on and trial. Lilly doesn't have him in her pedigree at all and she is a lot easier to handle than "Old Big Ears" was.
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Hi Heidi....
I just wanted to re-iterate what Gilly was asking.....
(I have written this before and have copied and pasted it!) ph34r
Is it a show type or working type cocker you are after?? This doesnt necessarily mean that you are going to show or work them. Although both are cockers, they look different and their personalities can vary greatly.
A typical working cocker is on the go all the time, it has been bred to work and as an adult worker will require hours of stimulation on a physical/mental basis. They can take as much exercise you give them, and then some!!! Increasingly working cockers are being sold as pets and it is not unusual for them to be in a home environment. On the whole the are extremely bright - give em an inch and they'll take a mile!!
Show cockers, although also very busy and on the go probably dont need as much mental physical stimulation. Again, the same applies with them, they can be exercised as much as a worker but will probably flake out at the end of the day whereas a worker will still want more. They too - are in the main clever dogs and will take a mile too!!!
A working cocker's coat tends to be shorter than a show cockers coat and there are physical differences too.... show cocker have more of a domed head, whereas a workers is slightly flatter, and working cockers are longer in the body.
I would fully advise you to research exactly what type of cocker it is you want before you go ahead and buy one, alot of working cockers have ended up in rescues because their owners didnt quite know what they were getting!!!
A good way to know, if you check the dogs pedigree on a workers pedigree if it comes from good lines it will have FT CH (field trial champion) and a show cocker will have Sh Ch (show champion).
If you do a search on show and worker differences using the search facility you will see that this has been discussed many times before.
Hope that helps
Cx
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Ayla doesn't have Rackateer in her peds as far as I can see
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If Heidi is happy with what she has seen then it's her decision. My main regret for us is that we didn't know about Optigen testing, we have to face the possibility that this may happen. Even though we aren't going to breed from Bracken we had her eyes tested at a local BVA clinic. We know that she is clear on both of the tests at the moment.
Unfortunately that is EXACTLY ALL it means :-\ Buttons had the KC/BVA test 2 or 3 times and was always clear. She had an Optigen test and is a "B" carrier, the KC BVA scheme can't tell you that, although obviously they are looking at other things too, not just PRA.
And from what I'm seeing results wise with Opitgen A LOT of the Liver line are carriers or worse. Don't get me wrong though of course there are some clears but there don't appear to be as many as there are with other colours, that is just based on my OWN personal observations and NOT fact ;)
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if a puppy isn't available from the breeder at the time and they can't recommend someone isn't it worth waiting???
I waited two years for Ayla because I wanted to observe the sire and dam and the other pup I have booked I've been waiting six years for... am waiting for a specific line to breed and that time is nearly here :luv:
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We would like to breed dogs further down the line and when and if we do this, we will be finding a reputable breeder with good dogs of a show standard, with the aim that if she shows well and everything else is fine we will breed from her.
I know that some people may see that as irresponsible and deem me a Back yard breeder, but we will join the cocker club and be looking to improve the breed etc.
Sorry, just curious but isn't Bracken part working cocker? How will you show her in that case?
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I think Emily means she won't show Bracken because she has got some worker in her, something she wasn't told about but if/when she get's another one she wants Show type and will go to a reputable breeder.
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I think Emily means she won't show Bracken because she has got some worker in her, something she wasn't told about but if/when she get's another one she wants Show type and will go to a reputable breeder.
Ah ok, I did think that but wasn't sure! ;)
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I don't think you can say that all commercial breeders don't take temprement, health screening and genetics into account.
Anyone who does consider all these things and breeds responsibly in order to improve the breed cannot possibly make a living out of breeding and therefore can't be considered commercial imo ;) If it was possible to make money and still breed ethically, then why don't all commercial breeders do this? They cut corners in order to make breeding profitable, hence, commercial :-\
As individuals, we have to chose a breeder who we are happy with; but that doesn't mean that others will agree with the ethics of our choice ::)
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I think Emily means she won't show Bracken because she has got some worker in her, something she wasn't told about but if/when she get's another one she wants Show type and will go to a reputable breeder.
Ah ok, I did think that but wasn't sure! ;)
That's right, we go to companion shows and I enjoy that but obviously can't enter proper ones. I have spoken to a few people about this and when the time is right we will spend the time researching breeders, going to shows etc and work from there. This site has armed me with a huge amount of knowledge and contacts for when the time is right for this.
I just worry that sometimes we scare people off the forum who have come here for help and advice. At the end of the day Heidi has to make her own decision all we can do is try to offer her and others constructive advice.
"Unfortunately that is EXACTLY ALL it means Buttons had the KC/BVA test 2 or 3 times and was always clear. She had an Optigen test and is a "B" carrier, the KC BVA scheme can't tell you that, although obviously they are looking at other things too, not just PRA.
And from what I'm seeing results wise with Opitgen A LOT of the Liver line are carriers or worse. Don't get me wrong though of course there are some clears but there don't appear to be as many as there are with other colours, that is just based on my OWN personal observations and NOT fact"
I have heard this from another source as well due to the small gene pool. Obviously there is nothing I can do about this now and wouldn't change Bracken for the world.
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I wouldn't change Buttons either ;) but obviously this does show the importance of Optigen/DNA testing when breeding.
I think this thread has probably gone a little off topic. Heidi no one is trying to scare you off this breeder and if you are happy then that is fine. I do still think health testing is very important and I do think it is something you should ask about.
Also with all people looking for a puppy make sure you are armed with as much information as possible. There is a lot of mixed strain breeding going on by backyard/pet market breeders and you might not always end up with exactly what you want if you're not careful.
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i have recently discovered there is a well known show kennel that houses its dogs outside. i think they produce quite a few litters a year yet i have never heard a bad word against them. are they classed as a comercial breeder? i'm not sure but, i am sure that as well known as this kennel is i wouldn't buy a puppy from them if i were looking for a show type. a lot of show dogs here on col will have this kennel in their pedigrees and have done very well in the show ring but, the dogs are in kennels and not in the home enviroment.
i think there is now a fine line between some well know kennels of both working and show strain and comercial kennels.
heidi, i hope you have many many years happiness with your little puppy. :luv:
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This was posted by Jane on a different thread:
The law defines a commercial breeder as anyone who breeds sufficient litters a year to require licensing by the local authority. Under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act, anyone breeding 5 or more litters a year needs a licence as they are deemed to be carrying on a business. Generally when we talk about commercial breeders on COL, we're talking about those who breed large numbers of litters a year solely to supply the pet market. They may have other breeds or they may only have Cockers - some of the largest commercial breeders have in excess of 20-30 Cocker litters a year so it is not surprising their affixes crop up on so many puppy pedigrees.
So I guess if they have 5+ litters they are commercial breeders.
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So I guess if they have 5+ litters they are commercial breeders.
Not necessarily:
Generally when we talk about commercial breeders on COL, we're talking about those who breed large numbers of litters a year solely to supply the pet market.
It is the motive behind the breeding that defines commercial to me - many reputable breeders, who show or work their dogs and are committed to the breed are also licensed by their local council, but make no money from breeding :-\
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I guess this is why going back to the other thread it is often hard to define what each type of breeder is as the definitions mean different things to different people. There are a lot of grey areas with things like this.
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so its really your own personal choice as to what you want the terminology to mean, when the law states a commercial breeder breeds 5+ litters a year that would be pretty clear to me then that most larger kennels (either work or show) ARE commercial breeders .
I don't agree for one minute that they make no money they have to cover their costs, stud fees, vets, research etc or else breeding 5+ litters a year would put them in debt.
I agree some people do do it for the love of the breed but i don't think that would be very many of them.
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I guess this is why going back to the other thread it is often hard to define what each type of breeder is as the definitions mean different things to different people. There are a lot of grey areas with things like this.
i think you've hit the nail on the head there emily :D i suppose ellie would be classed as being from a byb she has no kennel affix attached to her name but, her breeder didn't just put two dogs together and hope for a litter. they had researched the breeding and had carefully considered the health of the puppies before going ahead with the deed so to speak. ellie and livercakes jarvis are wonderful dogs. i don't believe for one second that every so called good breeder doesn't make a profit on the puppies they sell be they show or working. i'm not knocking breeders of quality dogs for making a profit but i do get annoyed when some play down the money side of things. its not a crime to make money and as long as the dogs involved are properly cared for then whats the big deal? better a healthy pup from a breeder who makes a little money in the process than a not so healthy pup from an uncaring breeder. as far as i can see its the dogs welfare that is most important. there are some wonderful people here who breed wonderful puppies. they take all the right precautions and try to guide us novices in the right direction. they can do no more than that. if heidi has found a breeder she is happy with then i wish her and her new puppy the very best of times for the future
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i have recently discovered there is a well known show kennel that houses its dogs outside. i think they produce quite a few litters a year yet i have never heard a bad word against them. are they classed as a comercial breeder? i'm not sure but, i am sure that as well known as this kennel is i wouldn't buy a puppy from them if i were looking for a show type. a lot of show dogs here on col will have this kennel in their pedigrees and have done very well in the show ring but, the dogs are in kennels and not in the home enviroment.
i think there is now a fine line between some well know kennels of both working and show strain and comercial kennels.
heidi, i hope you have many many years happiness with your little puppy. :luv:
putting breeding into catagories isent as simple as it seems .
I think the way to look at this is . is this kennel/breeder a good one .
Is the stud dog owner a good one .
The question is whats a good breeder of both bitches and dogs ?
Maybe thats what we need to figure out . Ive recently been shocked at what I thought was good :-\ I have high standards of what I think a reputable breeder of both bitches and dogs is and its changing all the time :embarassed:
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I have high standards of what I think a reputable breeder of both bitches and dogs is and its changing all the time :embarassed:
I agree, and it seems some breeders change their ways over time, as well - not always for the better :-\
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I just worry that sometimes we scare people off the forum who have come here for help and advice. At the end of the day Heidi has to make her own decision all we can do is try to offer her and others constructive advice.
I agree with Emily and have said this many times >:( Some comments can come across as quite patronising :-\
In an ideal world all breeders would produce pups for the love of the breed and with the highest of motives but that is just not realistic and why shouldn't they make a bit of money? As long as they are breeding responsibly and not purely for the money I have no problem with it being done as a business. Would you say the same about doctors, people who offer IVF etc. Not many people can afford to operate as a charity ::)
Anyone who does consider all these things and breeds responsibly in order to improve the breed cannot possibly make a living out of breeding and therefore can't be considered commercial imo ;) If it was possible to make money and still breed ethically, then why don't all commercial breeders do this? They cut corners in order to make breeding profitable, hence, commercial :-\
Some cut corners and some do not - I am sure like in every field there are good and bad breeders. Some will take more care than others, some will make more money than others and while there are no legal restrictions on breeding this will continue :-\ Rachel you make it sound as if there is no difference between a good commercial breeder (if you would accept that there are such things) and a puppy farmer :shades:
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Rachel you make it sound as if there is no difference between a good commercial breeder (if you would accept that there are such things) and a puppy farmer :shades:
I don't accept there are such things though - my opinion is that a Commercial Breeder is someone who doesn't do those things, no matter how well cared for the dogs are, they are breeding them with no consideration of the long term future or commitment to the breed.
I don't believe it is possible to *ethically* breed dogs on a commercial scale, because ethical/responsible breeding involves the selection of the very *best* dogs, in health, temperament, skill and/or appearance and finding them the best possible genetic match. These *best* dogs are few and far between and there are not enough to breed puppies in large numbers :-\
If there were no unwanted dogs, no accidental litters, no vets advising that a litter would be good for a bitch - then maybe I could accept that pet-breeding was acceptable; but there are thousands of dogs pts every year, and every dog that is born adds to this problem :-\ I hesitate to condemn all breeding, but only because I think it is important to maintain the diversity of breeds that we currently have; but imo, there are far too many dogs being born each year, and breeding should be restricted only to that needed to maintain a healthy genetic pool for each breed :-\
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reading the responses on here made me think that if we people were as concerned about humans breeding as we are the dogs breeding then our society wouldn't be in the mess its in today :005:
sadly our world is less than ideal and there will always be unscrupulous(sp) breeders of all breeds.
it would help some if the kc made working and show type cockers into different breeds for registration purposes. i know there would be the arguement about those of us who have working x show types being unfairly discriminated against but they could maybe state a date in the future where all x cockers(showxworking) will no longer be eligable for registration. after all you can't register a sprocker with the kc and they started in the same place as the cocker. they are now so different in type that i truly believe they should now be seperated.
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i do sympathise I am sure most of us in here give to animal charities regularly or even foster or adopt. But on the whole most dogs homes, strays etc are cross breeds that are pts the pedigrees don't hang around at any of these centre for longunless there are behavoural or health issues. And if it was only to mainatain a healthy gene pool what would then happen to all the people who want a certain breed.....the prices would rocket and then the whole cycle begins again.
And I whole heartedly agree with Lynn that workers should be a seperate breed as i find every day someone with a "show" type who knows more than i do about a breed I have had for 11 years telling me I "haven't got a cocker i must of been done!" "it must be a cross" "my daughters dog doesn't look like that" all the usual rubbish . They are completely different and i think it would certainly stop people buying a working dog by mistake and this would be the best thing that could happen IMO as there would be less working cockers going to Pat and Gill.
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i do sympathise I am sure most of us in here give to animal charities regularly or even foster or adopt. But on the whole most dogs homes, strays etc are cross breeds that are pts the pedigrees don't hang around at any of these centre for longunless there are behavoural or health issues. And if it was only to mainatain a healthy gene pool what would then happen to all the people who want a certain breed.....the prices would rocket and then the whole cycle begins again.
And I whole heartedly agree with Lynn that workers should be a seperate breed as i find every day someone with a "show" type who knows more than i do about a breed I have had for 11 years telling me I "haven't got a cocker i must of been done!" "it must be a cross" "my daughters dog doesn't look like that" all the usual rubbish . They are completely different and i think it would certainly stop people buying a working dog by mistake and this would be the best thing that could happen IMO as there would be less working cockers going to Pat and Gill.
But that was my point earlier . NOT everyone knows there ARE 2 types and a lot of backyard/commercial type breeders would not bother to disclose this fact as they are getting a sale, the person then can end up with something they didn't envisage.
I take it you have some personal grudge against people with "show" types then? I really hope that we're not going to get into the working vs show debate, not that old chestnut again ::) as a board that started out with just a few members we have evolved with the times as more and more people have working cockers. We all joined this board for a reason, Cocker Spaniels, not working, not show, Cocker Spaniels plain and simple.
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no i don't have any issues with any informed owner, Spaniel or other i am just a bit bored of the people who don't know the difference between the 2 types telling me Lilly can't be a pedigree because in their opinion she doesn't look like a "cocker" and the other camp who tell me i shouldn't have a working dog as a "pet". I didn't mean any offence by that comment. I just think that if the breed were spilt officially then it would solve lots of problems people would be able to knowledgeably buy the type of cocker they want and have the ability, time and experience to look after properly..whether that be a show type or worker. Its what ever floats your boat really isn't it?
But then shouldn't there be a common goal to share experiences and knowledge for the best of both types instead of the "sly" digs that some members post? As there is as much in common with both types as there are differences. I sometimes wonder what the "Newbies" must think if I had been told what some of them are i wouldn't bother coming back even if i needed help. Surely we should be singing the praises of these dogs from the rooftops not making someone worry and regret the decisions they have made and be made to feel stupid and ignorant.
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Also remember this is a public forum. Yes we all share the same breed but we all have differing opinions whether we like it or not ;) we can't agree on everything all of the time nor will we ever. Also please bare in mind we all have different writing skills, the spoken word would probably sound a lot different than the written word. I know frequently I type replies then end up deleting them because they don't sound the way I want them to.
Heidi, this has now gone way off topic, apologies for that. Some of us are passionate about trying to eradicate less than scrupulous breeders who have no regard for health, type or temperament, regardless of the strain, that is everyones main concern when new puppy buyers begin there search. I hope you can take some good from this thread as that is always the intent regardless of how it may be written ;)
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What a great post Alpha. :blink: In fact I think it's great the way my innocent little post turned into such a debate - it really has been a learning experience for me in more ways than one! ;)
The dog I'm getting is a show cocker - simply because that is the type I have experience of and know that I would be able to look after best.
Also, thanks to yourself and the other posters who are concerned about us newbies. I'm one you don't have to worry about - my spaniel-obsession is only just starting and I'll be here for a very long time! :shades:
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my spaniel-obsession is only just starting
you wont be able to help that now..it is a rather infectious condition :005: ;)
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Good luck with your little pup heidi, remember to post some piccies of her,
Em x
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As there is as much in common with both types as there are differences.
And that's precisely the reason show-type and working-type Cockers will never be split into separate breeds - for all their differences, they are all Cocker Spaniels first and foremost. There are quite big differences in appearance even within the same type - I trim pet bred show-type Cockers that look nothing like my own Cockers ;) From the photos on here, it's clear there are also different "types" within the working camp but they are all Cockers aren't they?
I'm sure it is annoying when a Working Cocker owner gets told their dog isn't a proper Cocker but all dog owners have to put up with ignorant comments sometimes. I think we had a thread somewhere where members posted the stupid comments they'd heard about their dogs and show-type owners had also been on the receiving end (especially those with less common colours). I can remember being told our first orange Cocker wasn't a Cocker because they only come in black (from someone who owned a black Cocker :005:) You can't take it personally or it would drive you mad ;)
Anyway, getting back on topic - good luck with your pup Heidi but do check whether your breeder has done all the recommended health tests if you want the best chance of getting a happy, healthy pup :D
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:005:
This is why I love this forum. At the end of the day, It does not matter who we got our pups off, or why we got them.With our love they turn turn out to be our best friends. I can tell Orla anything and I kow she won't tell anyone :005:
Working, Show, Ugly, who cares.
Take care
GK
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here here! some of the negative comments made are very offputting to new members.Is this website designed not only to inform and advise people about caring for their aniMals but also with the aim of celebrating our love for this breed and supporting each other. The comments about liver dogs and eye conditions made me more worried than informed .Does anyone have some solid facts and figures to back up people s experience and generalization. We new owners are keen to learn..we are bound to make mistakes but by encouraging people s interest and enthusiasm that can only serve to further improve the plight of these beautiful creatures. :D
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Sorry Ruby Ruby Doo but I don't really understand your post - please remember this is a discussion forum and so differences of opinion are inevitable as we don't all the think the same way (thank goodness!). This has been an interesting thread where people have expressed their views without it turning into an argument - just as it should be :D If you've got specific questions about eye problems etc, then perhaps you could start a new thread on the Health or Genetics board.
On that note, I think it's time to put this thread to bed ;)