CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: villa on August 11, 2008, 11:45:44 AM
-
Hi, we are new owners of a small black cocker (nearly 11 weeks old) and don't know what to do about him biting our feet, shoes, legs and clothes. Having tried to ignore till he stops then praise, as in books, is not working because it is very painful and can't take getting our feet chewed to bits or have clothes ruined. Also tried saying no very firmly and this sometimes works, sometimes not. Starting puppy class on saturday so they may be able to help but if anyone has any info that worked for them I would love to hear from you. Thanks.
-
When Charlie went through this stage we would shut him in the kitchen for a minute or leave the room and close the door behind us if the ignoring didn't work. We also put citronella spray on our feet as the little bugg#r really hurt >:( :005:. Make sure you have lots of toys/treats that he can chew and a kong stuffed with goodies keeps them occupied for a while :blink:. It is important that they learn bite inhibition at this age so you don't want to stop it all together, there is some links to bite inhibition articles on COL but I wouldn't know how to put a link in! I think its by Ian Dunbar though.
-
Just looked and its a locked thread at the top of the puppy board - 'How do I stop my puppy play biting'
-
the firm 'no' or shouting 'ouch' for us did nothing but spur cassie on, it seemed to excite her more, so we did the putting her out of the room for 30 seconds, but i know it can be a pain in the back side as its not always possible e.g. when you have your hands full with something.
Another good thing we did was swap our legs for toys or throw a ball for her, at 6 months now this stage has more or less passed apart from the odd time she wants played with or some attention but i couldnt count the many items of clothing i've thrown out because of tiny paranna puppy teeth, it got to the stage where i stayed in my p.j's or old clothes until i was about to go out the door to work :005:
hang in there it will get better
-
Hi, we are new owners of a small black cocker (nearly 11 weeks old) and don't know what to do about him biting our feet, shoes, legs and clothes. Having tried to ignore till he stops then praise, as in books, is not working because it is very painful and can't take getting our feet chewed to bits or have clothes ruined. Also tried saying no very firmly and this sometimes works, sometimes not. Starting puppy class on saturday so they may be able to help but if anyone has any info that worked for them I would love to hear from you. Thanks.
There is no quick solution to this normal stage in puppy development, unfortunately - wearing old clothes and steelcapped boots is definitely recommended for the first weeks of puppyhood :005:
There are lots of different solutions you can try - the most important thing is consistency - stick with one method and use it over and over again; it may not work every time, but slowly, your pup will begin to understand what you expect of him ;)
-
We going through exactly the same thing with Jade. Puppy teeth are so sharp >:( she got my ear the other day. We've got plenty of toys/chews all over the floor, so hopefully we have something close to hand to distract her. But if she gets too rough she gets a time out.
-
I remember these few weeks wel!! The pain, there pinchers are really that!!
After attempts of no and ignoring them, then gentle priase for being good, and taking them out the room etc, ill admit it worked!!
However, its started to come back with honey as she is teething, luckily not sharp anymre, just a little gnawing on the wrists!! But be warned, when it leaves you it may come back!!! we given pups so many different textured toys and chews and they certainly seem to work, really varying the types of texture!
-
I remember Baxter doing this to me, but never ever to my OH >:(
As I am around all day, I would correct this behaviour regularly but then sometimes (like a mother with a naughty child giving in with sweets) I would continue walking to the garden with the washing with the little monster hanging off my trouser leg and me pretending it wasn't happening ph34r
My OH would arrive home and if Baxter attempted it with him, he would gently tell him to sit and stay (thus calming him down for a mo) then fuss him telling him he was a good boy! He stopped mouthing my OH almost immediately and now (at 7 months) when excited still thinks he can swing on my dressing gown when I get up each morning! ph34r ph34r ph34r
Back to training I think - me not him! >:(
-
My spaniels weren't too bad to be honest, but we dog sat a JRT for a week she was another story!
I gave my girls a kong if they stsarted on my trousers, by the time they had finished that they were too tired to bother!
-
We are still having some of this, especially Elgar hanging on to my dressing gown belt in the morning. I just stand still and speak queitly to them and they sit and wait for me to open the door. Since last week, we have kept our voices down and make a real conscious effort not to shout (unless we need to draw their attention quickly for safety reasons!). I have to say it is working well and they soon stop unwanted behaviour. If they are doing something they shouldn't and we need to move them away, we just remove them from whatever and don't say a word. They soon get fed up and do something else, like trying to eat each other :-\
-
Yelp!!! when they bite anything! this is what their litter mates would do, its painless for them and doesn't half surprise them. then you can praise gently and calmly when they let go of legs/ dressing gowns /shoes / hands / fingers.
Or high pitched ow! can work too.
-
The William E Campbell book I just read says to suspend the pup off the ground a few inches until they calm down and stop. Don't say anything, just lift. One hand under the chest and one under the tummy, so hands and arms clear of their mouths. When they calm down, just gently let them down again. Just keep doing it until they learn that biting gets them a 'suspension'.
I haven't tried this myself, but because not a single one of the usually advised techniques worked for me (comes down to whether the puppy sees you as leader or plaything), I'll be trying it on my next pup.
-
The William E Campbell book I just read says to suspend the pup off the ground a few inches until they calm down and stop. Don't say anything, just lift. One hand under the chest and one under the tummy, so hands and arms clear of their mouths. When they calm down, just gently let them down again. Just keep doing it until they learn that biting gets them a 'suspension'.
I'd be concerned that this could lead to a hand-shy pup that begins to avoid being handled - like all aversives, perhaps a technique best left to the professionals ph34r
-
I'd be concerned that this could lead to a hand-shy pup that begins to avoid being handled - like all aversives, perhaps a technique best left to the professionals ph34r
How so is it an aversive when it is gentle and no verbal negativity involved at all? It would be less aversive than the loud 'NO!'s and solitary confinement time-outs often recommended for nipping pups. And from my own experience I was told to continually pick my puppy up and put him on a bench to get him used to grooming... which I didn't... so he is now 'hand-shy' to being picked up and put on a bench. I should have handled him in such a way much more often to actually be the opposite of hand-shy about being picked up and handled.
I should also add he recommends doing it anyway even when the puppy isn't nipping or causing trouble.
-
And from my own experience I was told to continually pick my puppy up and put him on a bench to get him used to grooming... which I didn't... so he is now 'hand-shy' to being picked up and put on a bench. I should have handled him in such a way much more often to actually be the opposite of hand-shy about being picked up and handled.
I should also add he recommends doing it anyway even when the puppy isn't nipping or causing trouble.
IMO, it should be a positive experience for a dog to be picked up and handled, and of course it is something that they need to get used to :D
However, used in the way you describe - to interrupt a playbiting puppy - it becomes a physical restraint, which is something that I don't think should be used at any time in dog training ;)
-
I agree with rachel that using aversives is a no no --- you may get a fast result but you may also set yourself up for problems at a much later date. Slow and steady is the key --- and the pack thing is useless as we are not dogs!
Owning a pup isn't always easy and its sad to see some of these dogs further down the line when they are in rescue and have every negative aspect of training used on them.
-
Ian Dunbar has most to say about bite-inhibition, starting with the fact that it's the most important part of a pup's learning - but going on to say that they must be allowed to play-bite, or they'll never learn how to modify their own jaw-strength. The most dangerous dog (as far as he's concerned) is the one which is well-socialised but has poor bite-inhibition - they're the ones that *don't know* how to modify their own jaw-strength because they've never been allowed to try and so when the 3 year old falls over and lands on them, they'll take her face off as a pure reflex, whereas something which has developed instinctive bite-inhibition is going to be able to pull that back in 0.04 of a second. But they need to learn it. It's not in there instinctively.
His advice is to go with what has been suggested here in some of the posts, which is to emit a sharp 'ow', high-pitched, like other pups, and then to turn your back, removing yourself from the pup's availability. Which of course might be easier said than done. His book has huge, huge detail about this and might be worth reading.
good luck
e
e
-
Fair enough. Have you actually tried this technique yourself? Do you know of anyone who has who now has a hand-shy dog because of it?
So you would then also agree that 'time-outs' should also not be used as they too are a physical restraint in the form of a literal physical barrier (not to mention the solitary confinement psychological punishment for a natural pack animal)?
One observation I feel the need to make. As I mentioned, not a single one of the dozen or so currently popular 'stop your puppy from nipping' techniques worked for me at all. What I have discovered after a year of owning a Cocker Spaniel pup is that advice from dominant personality people (which you have to be to be a successful dog trainer i think) in regards to training dogs is absolutely useless for people who are non-dominant personalities. For instance, I am an easy-going, laid back and quiet person and I simply can not and do not possess the personality of a Victoria Stilwell. Techniques that work easily for her are 100% failure-prone in other people who don't walk into a room like they own it and never will be able to.
To use Victoria as an example, she would say 'NO!' and turn her back and the puppy magically behaves! Yet, still there are hundreds and hundreds of pleas for help on dog forums worldwide every day like this one (believe me, I've read most of them) from people who do exactly the same thing and lo and behold, let's read the first post of this thread again:
Having tried to ignore till he stops then praise, as in books, is not working because it is very painful and can't take getting our feet chewed to bits or have clothes ruined. Also tried saying no very firmly and this sometimes works, sometimes not.
-
I must admit the loud yelp or ouch really didnt work just seemed to make things worse, like he translated it into 'do it again only harder'! ::)
-
His advice is to go with what has been suggested here in some of the posts, which is to emit a sharp 'ow', high-pitched, like other pups, and then to turn your back, removing yourself from the pup's availability. Which of course might be easier said than done. His book has huge, huge detail about this and might be worth reading.
I should mention I am in Australia so have never seen or heard Doctor Dunbar speak, but I do have his books, so I must assume that this bit of advice from him must be successful because he has a female voice box. I myself lack the ability to emit a 'high pitched' yelp at puppy frequencies so this advice was absolutely useless to me. 100% failure.
I'll return to my previous comment about the theory I have developed. Dunbar is experienced with dogs. This would come through in his personality and the dog/puppy would read it easily. What works easily for him would not work so easily for a first-ever puppy owner of quiet and timid disposition or nervous about whether they are doing the right thing. He could emit a yelp or just recite the 10 x table backwards. It's his confidence and personality, not the specific technique, which is why I believe these things work for them and not others.
-
What I have discovered after a year of owning a Cocker Spaniel pup is that advice from dominant personality people (which you have to be to be a successful dog trainer i think) in regards to training dogs is absolutely useless for people who are non-dominant personalities. For instance, I am an easy-going, laid back and quiet person and I simply can not and do not possess the personality of a Victoria Stilwell. Techniques that work easily for her are 100% failure-prone in other people who don't walk into a room like they own it and never will be able to.
Patience and persistence and being calm and confident help --- watching tv its obvious it will happen in 2 min as the show is only 30 min long. I went to training classes and would practise for 15-20 min more or less every day and lo and behold eventually the message got through. I also make training fun for my dogs so they listen to me. Training a dog does not happen overnight.
Half the battle is actually training the owner and yes I have seen many handshy dogs through bad training practice ;)
-
So you would then also agree that 'time-outs' should also not be used as they too are a physical restraint in the form of a literal physical barrier (not to mention the solitary confinement psychological punishment for a natural pack animal)?
No, not at all - I think time outs are a valuable training technique, when they are not used as punishment ;)
I would not move my puppy in order to implement a time out; I would achieve it by removing myself from the situation; the puppy experiences nothing unpleasant as a result (hence, no aversive it needs to avoid) but begins to learn cause and effect - if I bite a person, they walk away...... :D
What I have discovered after a year of owning a Cocker Spaniel pup is that advice from dominant personality people (which you have to be to be a successful dog trainer i think) in regards to training dogs is absolutely useless for people who are non-dominant personalities. For instance, I am an easy-going, laid back and quiet person and I simply can not and do not possess the personality of a Victoria Stilwell. Techniques that work easily for her are 100% failure-prone in other people who don't walk into a room like they own it and never will be able to.
I agree with you; I have met a lot of people who are unable to modify their behaviour sufficiently to successfully train a dog. In order to apply positive training methods, the trainer themselves has to be positive and patient. If it is not possible for someone to overcome their inhibitions in order to present this persona, then they are unlikely to succeed using these methods. Of course, if they use other, less positive methods, they run the risk of accidentally training their dog to become nervous and/or aggressive. :-\
In an ideal world, people would find out what is expected of them before they get a dog, and are committed enough to take on the persona required to provide their dog with what it needs. They make fool of themselves by playing hide and seek, run madly away from the dog calling their name, and practice their tone of voice until they find the one that their dog responds to. Sadly, there are too many dogs who aren't given this, and many end up in rescue or worse. :-\
One of the most unassuming, introverted people I know is a successful agility handler - she was given a gift of a collie puppy by a well-meaning friend - and she realised that if she wanted to keep her dog happy and healthy then she would have to develop a persona that the dog responded to ;) she has become more confident and outgoing as a result - but that, imo, is a benefit of being a dog owner, isn't it? ;)
-
Patience and persistence and being calm and confident help --- watching tv its obvious it will happen in 2 min as the show is only 30 min long. I went to training classes and would practise for 15-20 min more or less every day and lo and behold eventually the message got through. I also make training fun for my dogs so they listen to me. Training a dog does not happen overnight.
Half the battle is actually training the owner and yes I have seen many handshy dogs through bad training practice ;)
I agree with you there about training the owner. To change their persona. A nervous shy person must become a calm and confident person. And if they can't?
Have any of the many hand shy dogs you've seen been a result of the specific technique recommended by William E Campbell to justify labelling it as a 'bad training method? Have you actually used this method yourself, or seen others use it to make that sort of judgement? I'd actually like to know as I have never used it myself either as I mentioned, but am planning to on my next puppy.
I posted Campbell's advise on an Australian forum a few days ago where a lady was having great difficulty with a biting Labrador puppy where all the other techniques were not working, yet others were insisting she persist with the techniques that were clearly not working for her, and even making it worse. Her reply within 40 minutes:
Oh my god. This works.
I've never seen that sort of response so quickly from anybody trying any of the other common techniques being advised. And I've never seen it myself either as I've never tried this technique myself. I tried all the other commonly advised techniques, all with the same result as the original poster in this thread:
is not working
-
One of the most unassuming, introverted people I know is a successful agility handler - she was given a gift of a collie puppy by a well-meaning friend - and she realised that if she wanted to keep her dog happy and healthy then she would have to develop a persona that the dog responded to ;) she has become more confident and outgoing as a result - but that, imo, is a benefit of being a dog owner, isn't it? ;)
True, it can be. Pets as Therapy, in a way.
-
I agree with you there about training the owner. To change their persona. A nervous shy person must become a calm and confident person. And if they can't?
Yes but why use that as an excuse to use aversives true I come across many who can't workl out how to teach their dog recall so they rehome the dog instead (may be that's a blessing for the dog though). There are many other ways to train a dog positively.
-
Fair enough. Have you actually tried this technique yourself? Do you know of anyone who has who now has a hand-shy dog because of it?
So you would then also agree that 'time-outs' should also not be used as they too are a physical restraint in the form of a literal physical barrier (not to mention the solitary confinement psychological punishment for a natural pack animal)?
One observation I feel the need to make. As I mentioned, not a single one of the dozen or so currently popular 'stop your puppy from nipping' techniques worked for me at all. What I have discovered after a year of owning a Cocker Spaniel pup is that advice from dominant personality people (which you have to be to be a successful dog trainer i think) in regards to training dogs is absolutely useless for people who are non-dominant personalities. For instance, I am an easy-going, laid back and quiet person and I simply can not and do not possess the personality of a Victoria Stilwell. Techniques that work easily for her are 100% failure-prone in other people who don't walk into a room like they own it and never will be able to.
To use Victoria as an example, she would say 'NO!' and turn her back and the puppy magically behaves! Yet, still there are hundreds and hundreds of pleas for help on dog forums worldwide every day like this one (believe me, I've read most of them) from people who do exactly the same thing and lo and behold, let's read the first post of this thread again:
Having tried to ignore till he stops then praise, as in books, is not working because it is very painful and can't take getting our feet chewed to bits or have clothes ruined. Also tried saying no very firmly and this sometimes works, sometimes not.
But this pup is only 10 weeks old, so thats only a couple of weeks of being 'trained'. And what the puppy is doing is not naughty - its a natural and essential part of learning bite inhibition.
What does the author you refer to suggest if the puppy doesn't stop wriggling and trying to bite, I could imagine trying this with some breeds of dog would only make them more frustrated.
-
Here's my two penneth on this.
First of all I can't really see anything wrong in the William E Campbell method as long as it is done in an air of calm and without malice and does not cause the dog discomfort.
I also think Anthony is right about dogs picking up on experienced dog people, it happens to me all the time. This is not to say that dogs can't react in the same way to inexperienced dog people if they display a calm and laid back demeanour.
I do not think it's anything to do with being dominant though cos I don't buy into all that out dated pack theory rubbish and dogs are not pack animals in the true sence of the word anyway. In my experience dogs do respond to a quiet confident approach .
Sarah (Two little boys) who I did a session with this week saw the benefit of a calm approach as she mentions earlier in the thread.
I was not dominant in this session, I was just a trainer who knew how to solicit the response I required from the puppies.
No need to be domineering just train the bl**dy dog! and if you don't know how then get the knowledge or get someone in to show you.
There are many methods to prevent a pup from biting, but the truth of the matter is that pups will perform this behaviour and it is essential they perform this behaviour to an extent to help develop their bite inhibition. Shouting no! and screaming may work for some, but some dogs will be equally wound up and stressed by such an approach. Stressed pups mouth even more and often when interacting with children as they do not read the pup's signals to back off and the pup reacts by getting giddy and mouthy due to stress. Personally I am a great believer in a puppy pen in the same room as me so both myself and the pup get a break from each other as well as providing many appropriate items for a dog to chew on when in there.
All so doing lots of training with your pup so that they learn you are a provider of good things and someone to be valued helps as well as mentally tiring the pup.
I have never tried the Cambell method myself so can't comment on it's effectiveness but I would need to look at the dog and it's reaction to see if it was aversive or not.
Do you make it a pleasant experience? which would be my take Anthony or is it Cambell's intention to make the dog submit and shut down?
If the latter was the case I would not agree with the technique as pups do need to associate human hands and touch with positive early experiences.
Mark
-
I recall many times trying to get my socks on in the morning b4 Smudge decided to take a nip on my toes - ouch indeed, >:D but what i did was have an old sock handy and just rolled it up in a ball and threw it for him, far as possible - the results were hilarious, :005:(and time consuming, but at least I have got all my toes intact. I got ready for work/outing at the last possible moment. Puppies nip, test their mouths etc., it comes with the territory, same as weeing on the floor, yelling at the top of their little voices when you are on the phone!! ::), and being forever hungry :shades: it seems to last forever for a while ::) - Then suddenly you realise (with relief) that they are not doing it anymore :angel: (hopefully!!)
-
it seems to last forever for a while ::) - Then suddenly you realise (with relief) that they are not doing it anymore :angel: (hopefully!!)
Exactly!
-
Just a small point about my 'yelping' approach, you may all like to note that I also added that you can praise the dog for halted behaviour, this avoids the 'hand shy' aspect that you are talking about.
I have never hit, if 'torn'my hand away or had to shout at my girls, the ow said in whatever pitch of voice is usually enough then ;good no bite' in a praising tone has worked for me on three occasions.
It was nothing to do with dominance, pack mentality, punishment or being a female. Just a suggestion if it doesn't work for you then try something else.
-
It was nothing to do with dominance, pack mentality, punishment or being a female. Just a suggestion if it doesn't work for you then try something else.
I have also found different pups respond to different things better than another. I use the yelp approach and also the 'bail out the room approach' (ie step back and let them carry on runnign around wildly so I don't get in the way but from a viewpoint where I can see what is going on) when they have the mad half hour as I feel I would set them up to fail when they are in this frame of mind and just manic (often which approach you use can depend on a particular layout of the house etc.).
I also used other approaches when I was trying to fulfill a task like put a harness on a bitey puppy, praising/treating for even a moment of calmness and focusing/attention on me.
-
I have never tried the Cambell method myself so can't comment on it's effectiveness but I would need to look at the dog and it's reaction to see if it was aversive or not.
Do you make it a pleasant experience? which would be my take Anthony or is it Cambell's intention to make the dog submit and shut down?
If the latter was the case I would not agree with the technique as pups do need to associate human hands and touch with positive early experiences.
Mark, I had assumed that *shut down* and *submission* was the intention, based on Anthony's description, there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that it is a positive experience:
The William E Campbell book I just read says to suspend the pup off the ground a few inches until they calm down and stop. Don't say anything, just lift. One hand under the chest and one under the tummy, so hands and arms clear of their mouths. When they calm down, just gently let them down again. Just keep doing it until they learn that biting gets them a 'suspension'.
Just a small point about my 'yelping' approach, you may all like to note that I also added that you can praise the dog for halted behaviour, this avoids the 'hand shy' aspect that you are talking about.
I have never hit, if 'torn'my hand away or had to shout at my girls, the ow said in whatever pitch of voice is usually enough then ;good no bite' in a praising tone has worked for me on three occasions.
It was nothing to do with dominance, pack mentality, punishment or being a female. Just a suggestion if it doesn't work for you then try something else.
I have seen the yelping technique work just as you describe, Amanda - my understanding is that the yelp is designed to mimic a sound the pup is genetically programmed to respond to; not used as an aversive (such as a rattle bottle might be).
I'm sure that all pups are different, some are probably more sensitive to their siblings pain (and yelps) than others, and some are probably clever enough to work out that we might make a sound like a puppy, but know that we're not :005:
-
I can't comment on the merits of the technique but re reading the post it does sound like a form of negative reinforcement Rachel.
If it is, then to decrease the behaviour the pup must find the experience aversive and then we get into the whole argument of whether aversives have any place in training and most people on here know my stance on the risks of going down such a route.
I was just not sure if the action of lifting the pup would have a calming effect rather than just shutting the pup down?
In fact I am now intrigued as to what would happen.
As I mentioned a lot of mouthy behaviour happens when the pup is stressed and wound up so chilling the dog down would not be a bad thing.
I tend to use the relaxed down on lead in these situations and give the dogs something else other than me to chew on.
That and the puppy pen are my ways of dealing with this and It works well for me.
With all techniques I try to keep an open mind until I see them or try them myself.
Mark
-
The relaxed down is a really good tool but we hadn't learned that particular tool when Dax went through this phase - he got more wound up by the yelp approach which made the situation worse - inevitably when he went through this phase he was over excited so to calm him we put him in his crate for a couple of mins and then let him out when calm - I think that this has to be done very carefully without any hint of being cross with the puppy so they don't feel the crate is a place of punishment ... this and tucking pants in socks amongst other things (to avoid temptation) saw us through this phase :lol:
We are using the relaxed down tool at the moment in the house because we have hit the teen phase in these last few weeks - its a shame there isn't much written about the teenage phase - it isn't easy! ;)
-
it seems to last forever for a while ::) - Then suddenly you realise (with relief) that they are not doing it anymore :angel: (hopefully!!)
Exactly!
Alfie is now over 7 months old and he still does the mouthing terribly. :-\ It is the one thing that I cannot get on top of. We think we are being consistent in how we manage it, maybe we are not :huh: He does have bite inhibition, well he should he has had 7 months practicing on us :005:
Saying 'no or 'ouch' loudly seems to rev Alfie up. Moving away and stopping play gets him revved up too. :huh: HELP.
-
I can't comment on the merits of the technique but re reading the post it does sound like a form of negative reinforcement Rachel.
If it is, then to decrease the behaviour the pup must find the experience aversive and then we get into the whole argument of whether aversives have any place in training and most people on here know my stance on the risks of going down such a route.
I was just not sure if the action of lifting the pup would have a calming effect rather than just shutting the pup down?
In fact I am now intrigued as to what would happen.
In Campbell's Behaviour Problems in Dogs [3rd Edition 1999], he does recommend the standard 'freezing as per the dam would do' technique, and then only if that fails move on to the 'distraction with another chewtoy' technique. But for it to actually work, first the owner must establish a strong dominant leadership position with the pup by teaching basic commands such as sit etc which creates subordination in the puppy. Only then comes the correction of mouthing and biting via the 'freeze' technique.
But in his The New Better Behaviour In Dogs [also 1999], he instead describes this holding technique. I'll type his exact words here:
To correct the nippy pup, when he starts to nip or mouth, pick him up by cradling with both hands under the belly and chest and hold him with paws off the floor until he settles down. Then gently put him down, praise him, and pet him. Use this elevation dominance exercise at least five times a day, whether or not the puppy shows signs of aggression or nipping. Don't ever shake or hit the pup, etc etc...
Now, there are words like "gentle" and "praise" there, which are good, but "elevation dominance exercise" does sound like some sort of pseudo Monk of New Skete alpha-roll or something, but he applies the same terminology to standard basic commands establishing a "dominant leadership position" and "subordination" as well, so I have no idea what to make of it. Maybe back in 1999, there was less distinction between the words dominance and leadership and both were interchangeable. I can though see the lifting technique as a 'controller of resources' leadership thing just like time-outs are, as in 'I decide play stops now'. And there is praise and petting the instant the pup calms down, so is it an aversive?
I do believe he is correct though that the standard freeze/ignore technique does not work unless the pup already recognises you as the leader/mum/dad/whatever rather than as just another pup or plaything (hence why the Stilwells and Dunbars can get it to work almost instantly while for the rest of us the puppy just keeps biting). And that it does take much time and extreme patience which many new puppy owners get frustrated with.
-
I recall many times trying to get my socks on in the morning b4 Smudge decided to take a nip on my toes - ouch indeed, >:D but what i did was have an old sock handy and just rolled it up in a ball and threw it for him, far as possible - the results were hilarious, :005:(and time consuming, but at least I have got all my toes intact. I got ready for work/outing at the last possible moment.
I actually threw the socks and shoes I wanted to put on. So now Alfred is bringing them to me to help me dress. I found it best to do it before a walk or car trip so they want you dressed as fast as possible. :)
-
What would interest me about the Campbell technique is whether it produces adult dogs that have adequate bite inhibition. What Dunbar and his colleagues are attempting to do - in whatever way - is to educate a puppy so that it has the 0.04 second - that is, reflex - response time that means when the 3 year old in the superman cape jumps off the coffee table onto the sleeping malamute, the kid walks away alive because the dog had impeccable bite inhibition.
What Campbell is doing is 'correcting' puppy biting, which, as far as I can tell, is teaching the puppy not to bite, which is an entirely different thing. Not-biting is NOT, biting-safely where the teeth don't break the skin and the kid has, at most, a line of saliva on her arm.
it's a whole different way of looking at it. one is protecting your feet for a short period of time. the other is protecting everyone, including the dog, for its lifetime.
e
-
I don't personally think that teaching basic commands establishes a basic dominance over a pup - nor do I believe you have to establish a dominent role (and therefore have a dominent personality) to have a successful relationship with a dog. You need confidence in what you are doing and you need to bulid a mutual respect. This includes setting standards for behaviour on both sides - "you will sit when I ask you to", "I will provide food and shelter" etc - I view the relationship as benevolent leader, rather than dictator.
Anyway - this next bit I'm not very proud of, but as this debate is continuing, I feel it is pertinent to include.
When we were struggling through the puppy-biting stage, we were at the stage where nothing felt like it was working. Having watched various parenting programmes on tv, we were aware that "Time Outs" can be close, as well as a seperate room and (we thought) adapted that into picking Honey up, slightly away from us, so it wasn't a cuddle, but supported and safe. And yes, it seemed to work - we thought we were simply removing her from the stimulus that was making her bite continuously (this was only done after yelps and freezes and distractions). However this wasn't the case, as it soon became obvious when on putting her back down again she turned to try and bite, rather then chew!! She also became very much more reluctant to be picked up generally, even close and cuddled. We reverted to the walking away and closing a door between us final straw responce and weathered the storm....
As others have said, puppies need to learn bite inhibition - this means they need several weeks of chomping on you to know what hurts and what doesn't - therefore it does take several weeks of yelping, freezing, distracting and walking away.... ;)
Fortunately Honey forgave out mistake - but I'm sure she would not have done if we were doing this 5 times a day.... :shades:
-
I can though see the lifting technique as a 'controller of resources' leadership thing just like time-outs are, as in 'I decide play stops now'. And there is praise and petting the instant the pup calms down, so is it an aversive?
The key difference as I see it is that the lifting technique requires the puppy to be physically controlled - there is physical contact made between the handler and the puppy and no choices open to the pup. In the time-out method - where the handler walks away from the puppy and ends the play, there is no physical overpowering of the pup, and it leaves the puppy with choices - follow the handler, pounce on a leaf, curl up and go to sleep or even have a pee ;) When a puppy is encouraged into another room or a pen when it is biting; I consider that to be a distraction technique rather than time-out....the confinement is not a consequence of the biting, but the reward in the crate is a consequence of going in there in nicely :D
Is Campbells book breed specific? This technique clearly cannot be used on all breeds/dogs purely due to their physical size.... :lol2:
-
I don't personally think that teaching basic commands establishes a basic dominance over a pup - nor do I believe you have to establish a dominent role (and therefore have a dominent personality) to have a successful relationship with a dog. You need confidence in what you are doing and you need to bulid a mutual respect. This includes setting standards for behaviour on both sides - "you will sit when I ask you to", "I will provide food and shelter" etc - I view the relationship as benevolent leader, rather than dictator.
Mutual respect is not built on threats or dominance it is built on trust and in the grand scheme of dogs consistent training.
Cambells book is now quite old and peoples attitudes (well some anyway) have moved on from the idea that imposing authority on the dog is the way forward.
All dogs are different and the approach I take with ne dog may not be the approach I take with another so applying a blanket dominance approach is IMHO not appropriate.
Mark
-
He's a behaviourist, so like many of these similar books he cites examples of all sorts of problem client dogs he's dealt with. The example he uses for a biting puppy is a German Shepherd, but otherwise it's general non breed specific. One book has a Giant Schnauzer on the cover, while the other has a Golden Retriever.
When we were struggling through the puppy-biting stage, we were at the stage where nothing felt like it was working. Having watched various parenting programmes on tv, we were aware that "Time Outs" can be close, as well as a seperate room and (we thought) adapted that into picking Honey up, slightly away from us, so it wasn't a cuddle, but supported and safe. And yes, it seemed to work - we thought we were simply removing her from the stimulus that was making her bite continuously (this was only done after yelps and freezes and distractions). However this wasn't the case, as it soon became obvious when on putting her back down again she turned to try and bite, rather then chew!! She also became very much more reluctant to be picked up generally, even close and cuddled.
Here we go, an actual example of a similar technique being used and the result. I can see how the pup would learn to avoid hands reaching out to pick her up if she associates it with 'end of fun', like avoiding a leash at the end of a free run at a park. Maybe that's the point of doing it even when she's not misbehaving, so there's no negative associations? (My own Alfred dislikes being picked up after learning it ended him up on the grooming bench and he learned to growl and run whenever I reached down to pick him up!). Honey turning to bite after being put back down again is an interesting reaction. I don't know what to make of that. Did you berate her before picking her up or while holding her? Did you hold her tightly and restrict her movement, or gently so she could still wiggle around? Did you praise her when she calmed down and you put her back down?
Okay, so what I'm reading from most posts here from non-professional puppy owners is that the most successful technique is 'wait until they eventually grow out of it', and all that practice teaches them bite inhibition. Worked for me too! :)
-
Cambells book is now quite old and peoples attitudes (well some anyway) have moved on from the idea that imposing authority on the dog is the way forward.
So 9 years in a dog behaviour book is like 50 years in human terms? :lol2:
That's just another thing that makes it difficult for new puppy owners with all the conflicting advice out there, in books, on the internet etc. One person advises one thing, another says it's out of date, etc. I know I personally got ultra confused reading all the differing (often quite vehemently opposing) advice when I got Alfred.
The dog looking to you for leadership and resources thing is still quite current though, eg Dog Whisperer with the NILIF. It's just been refined a bit more and the words dominance/alpha morphed into leadership/respect.
Mutual respect is not built on threats or dominance it is built on trust and in the grand scheme of dogs consistent training.
I like this. I see it more as mutual teamwork. That's how it was with my old Weimaraner before getting Alfred. I saw it as 'me and my best buddy' and never as 'me and my dog'. But like a typical superhero and sidekick team, one still has to make the decisions. But then with Alfred, I started reading all the advice.. and got confused.. and so is Alfred!
-
It *is* confusing, particularly with idiots like Caesar Milan clouding the waters. If you want one more book to read (?!?), I'd thoroughly recommend Jean Donaldson's 'Oh, Behave!' which is essentially a series of short essays that talk through the latest in applied dog behaviour science.
I also read somewhere (can't remember where) of two behaviourists at a conference who began to refer to 'the behaviour formerly referred to as dominance' because the actual phrase 'dominance' had fallen into such disrepute.
I would still always opt for the concept of a relationship/partnership with any animal - (the horse world is as full of the bullsh1t about dominance and 'respect' as the dog world, and in almost all cases, it's a cover for bullying and heading to learned helplessness to some degree) - my horse-clicker mentor says we're aiming for good mannered horses rather than 'obedient' ones, and I'd go for the same with my dog.
good luck with the puppy biting
e (who really enjoys the way these conversations expand)
-
That would be Patricia McConnell (Other End of the Leash) I think. They even gave it a symbol like the artist formally known as Prince. :lol:
Horses I think are very much like dogs in they pick up on the handler's experience and attitude the same way. I could read a dozen books by the Horse Whisperer and still not be able to do it as I am totally inexperienced with even being in the presence of a horse - and the horse would know it!
I have Jean Donaldson's Mine!, Dogs are from Neptune and The Culture Clash. Culture Clash is good, but I'm still wading through it. The Neptune one sounds similar to the book you recommend in that it's a collection of specific examples.
Alfred stole and chewed up the copy of Mine! (how ironic is that?), so I had to buy another one as it was a loan from the puppy preschool trainer. I guess he smelled all the other dog smells on it. The only other book he's ever chewed up was a Welsh dictionary, go figure.
Anyway, in regards to poor Villa's initial (and only so far) post about how to stop 11 week old puppy from biting, maybe Mark's suggestion of a puppy pen is the best one for him/her then?
-
You're right, it was McConnell.
and
'Behave!' is rather better than Neptune - or at least, about a decade more recent.
and
when I was young my mother ran a DoE rehab centre for birds of prey. I vividly remember the day one of the young kestrels destroyed my Roget's Thesaurus on the pages about transport and horses... I was horse-mad at the time and not paying attention to training the birds. It did get me focused again ;)
and yes, I'd have thought a puppy pen or a baby gate so that the pup can be confined to one room would be good.
e
-
I recall many times trying to get my socks on in the morning b4 Smudge decided to take a nip on my toes - ouch indeed, >:D but what i did was have an old sock handy and just rolled it up in a ball and threw it for him, far as possible - the results were hilarious, :005:(and time consuming, but at least I have got all my toes intact. I got ready for work/outing at the last possible moment.
I actually threw the socks and shoes I wanted to put on. So now Alfred is bringing them to me to help me dress. I found it best to do it before a walk or car trip so they want you dressed as fast as possible. :)
yes that is a good rouse - I taught retrieve then cottoned onto making getting my shoes into a game - he now thinks holding my shoe then dropping it when asked is really clever ;) shame it doesnt work with paper - paper clips - my phone ear piece - the list goes on :005: but them my teen is a work in progress :lol: