CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: Oliver21508 on February 04, 2009, 03:08:21 PM
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Hiya
Took Ollie to the park on his long line. He was being really obedient so I decided to let him off completely. He was fab. He sticked really close by and if he did wander, I called him back and ran away from him, and he came racing over. :005: The park was very quiet, there was no-one there, so I only let him off for about 3-5 minutes. Once he was back on, he was fine and then a dog entered the park. He ran over to say hello. Here's my question, how do you stop them running over to dogs? With people, he can ignore them, just not dogs. I do have to say though, that the difference between him off lead and him on the line, was nothing. His behaviour was exactly the same, so I'm still wondering if there's any need for him to be completely off lead? When he's on the long line, he's allowed to run free. He's not attached to me at all on the long line.
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Yes, he does need to run free! :shades: IMO it is cruel to have a dog and never let it run free especially an energetic breed like a spaniel :-\ Why are you so worried about Ollie running up to other dogs to say hello :huh: He will do this of course - it is natural for a pup to want to greet other dogs and play with them too. As long as they don't make a nuisance of themselves, what is the problem? Coco used to do it all the time when she was a pup - I would call her back as much as possible but it is good for them to meet other friendly dogs and great socialisation if the other dog and owner is happy with it. She was a bit too friendly tbh and got told off a couple of times but this is how she learned doggy manners - I am not saying that Ollie should just run amok and harrass other dogs you meet but it is good for them to interact especially at his age. Coco has gradually become more discerning and doesn't bother much with other dogs now other than a quick sniff to say hello. ;) Surely you are not planning to keep him on a lead or long line for life? :huh:
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The long line is not attached to me. He does run free, the long line is trailing and is only there if I need to pick it up if he decides to do a runner. The reason why I don't want him going to any dog uninvited, is cos the other dog may be aggressive, and I don't want Ollie to be injured or anything.
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The long line is not attached to me. He does run free, the long line is trailing and is only there if I need to pick it up if he decides to do a runner. The reason why I don't want him going to any dog uninvited, is cos the other dog may be aggressive, and I don't want Ollie to be injured or anything.
sorry but it is innevitable that from time to time he will meet a 'not so friendly dog', part of growing up, they soon pick up on other dogs body language.
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IMO it the owners more than the dogs that are the problem (with the dogs he runs upto not you).
When Taz was about 6 months old, he ran over to two pugs in the park and the owner was waving his arms trying to shoo him away, taz just thought he was playing so carried out. Then the man got his dogs leads and hit taz across the back a number of times, i shouted at him to stop and he said it was my own fault i should have my dog under control - he was insisting that Taz should either damage their eyes or break their backs (he was only running around them not jumping on them). His dogs were off lead to and not bothered by Taz. In hindsight i should have reported him but i was so upset. However, about 6 months ago we were on the park together again, and it suddenly hit me that he hardly ever recalled his dogs and when he did they took ages to go back to him!
Taz is now 18 months and he will go to other dogs but if they are not interested he just comes back, if they want to play he plays.
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the best thing to do in terms of training them to come back around other dogs (imo) is to let them off with as many dogs as possible!
Kye didn't know how to interact with dogs when I got him. He was at least a year old, thought that lying down, storking and charging up and barking was 'good dog language' and used to disappear out of site across MASSIVE fields.
it's only been through taking him on large social walks with lots of dogs (20+ from flyball clubs, german shep rescue etc) that he's learned how to behave around dogs. Now MOST of the time he's not bothered, happy to stick with me in the hopes of getting a ball thrown etc. Has his odd moments but nothing like what he was.
Pepper has been off lead since she was old enough to go out. Never been on a long line (as Kye always knew the difference between being on a line even trailing and being off lead and I figured she'd be the same) She's been told off by other dogs, but she knows when I call her away from another dog (which i do if it's on a lead) that she'll get to say hello to loads of others so isn't bothered about coming back.
Kye used to spot dogs, look at me, think "mum's not going to let me say hello, she's gonna grab me" and leg it. It was only when I totally ignored those looks we managed our recall breakthrough.
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It could be his behaviour was the same because it was his first time off lead. I was very reluctant to let Brodie off her longline and did think she would not notice any difference. However, once I bit the bullet, I could see how wrong I was! She loves it, she has so much more freedom and interacts much more with the dogs we meet (she is quite a timid dog at times). I still use the longline quite a bit, and only let her off in situations I am sure of. I know that there is always the risk that she could meet an aggressive dog…but the benefits of letting her off the lead are too great xxx
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TBH i enjoy the walk so much more with Bonnie off the lead its great to see her running flat out with her ears flapping .yes there is a chance she might meet a not so friendly dog but its got to be worth the risk. When she meets some of her friends out over the fields and they chase each other round and round there is no way i could tire her out like that. She just loves running and jumping and sniffing and playing and chasing and being chased thats what being a cocker is all about and she allways comes back gets home wash,dry and sleeps .Bliss
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The long line is not attached to me. He does run free, the long line is trailing and is only there if I need to pick it up if he decides to do a runner. The reason why I don't want him going to any dog uninvited, is cos the other dog may be aggressive, and I don't want Ollie to be injured or anything.
How long is the line then - he can not truly run free when he is on a long line. :huh: The long line is for training not for ever! :shades: If it is close enough for you to pick up all the time, then he is not really getting much freedom - you cannot keep him tied to you for ever and nor should you. ;) Most dogs he will meet are not aggressive - most are quite happy to say hello, play or whatever - some might tell him off with a growl, but this is how he will learn how to interact with dogs. It is essential that he is well socialised with dogs esp if you are planning on showing him. Do you never let him meet/play with other dogs when you are out? When Coco went to puppy class our homework every week was for her to meet 10 new dogs. ;)
I would be interested to hear what your trainer says :huh:
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dogs learn manners and how to deal with other dogs by interaction - some good, some not so good, it's all part of socialising them and this is something you can't teach them.
Unsocialised dogs sometimes can't read the body language of other dogs, or are late in maturing because they've not learnt doggy manners from adult dogs...and this is when they get into trouble, or worse, become fear aggressive :-\
I'm still learning what is 'aggressive' behaviour and what is a warning or a telling off or normal play (rough or otherwise) and I still don't think I can completely make that judgement call for Jarvis - he can, cos he's the dog ;)
Today he was bounced on by a 6 month old german shepherd - she was very boisterous and a little cheeky, and was jumping on his back. He bared his teeth and growled at her, and chased her away a couple of times. Looked and sounded vicious...but there was no attempt to bite or attack her! It was just a telling off (and I don't blame him :lol2: )
It is tough, sometimes you are right to avoid certain dogs, but you can still do this with him off lead if you have a solid recall in place. Jarv would approach most dogs until he was around 18 months old, now he's very selective and if needs be I can call him back. They change as they mature ;)
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The long line is TRAILING, on the floor, I do not touch it unless there's another dog in sight. So most the time, the line is away from me, but he's not the running around, getting rid of energy sort of cocker. He just loves sniffing and trotting around. Yeah, sometimes he goes away to sniff something about 20m away, but I don't worry as I know if I need to, I can run and grab it. He can run free. He goes to training classes every week and he sees tons of dogs there and says hello to them all, and he meets dogs on walks, and he sees his girlfriend (a little cavalier) regularly. He's very well socialised, and actually we have met a few aggressive dogs, today for example, saw a terrier being very aggressive to Ollie and other dogs whilst on an on-lead walk.
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actually we have met a few aggressive dogs, today for example, saw a terrier being very aggressive to Ollie and other dogs whilst on an on-lead walk.
What do you mean by aggressive? If a dog is too in Coco's face she will growl or bark at them and chase them away - it does sound aggressive but she never bites or hurts them, she just gives them a warning. :-\ It is essential imo that dogs have these interactions to learn how to communicate properly with other dogs. :-\ Plus, 99% of the time, it is fun! ;)
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The long line is TRAILING, on the floor, I do not touch it unless there's another dog in sight.
Kye KNEW he was on a long line BECAUSE it was trailing/getting snagged in things etc... they do know the difference
actually we have met a few aggressive dogs, today for example, saw a terrier being very aggressive to Ollie and other dogs whilst on an on-lead walk.
Chances are a lot of the agression from the terrier is because it WAS on a lead. Many dogs (Kye included) are a lot more agressive on lead (kye's is verbal) becuase they are not in control of their own ability to move away/approach a dog in a way they feel comfortable in.
Dogs approach each other normally in an arch, they can't do this on a lead. Plus a dog pulling on a lead looks a lot more threatening in terms of body language to other dogs, so everyone is more tense.
I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, I'm just saying that there are reasons a long line can hinder your progress.
PS Kye also walks to heel SO much better off any form of lead
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He's very well socialised, and actually we have met a few aggressive dogs, today for example, saw a terrier being very aggressive to Ollie and other dogs whilst on an on-lead walk.
did he bite Ollie? :-\
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This terrier was on another on-lead walk, not the long line. He was barking and trying to get to a staffie on the pavement, and then turned to Ollie. Ollie looked a little taken aback as if to say, what have i done wrong? and he was a little nervous, but he walked past and thought nothing of it again. Exactly the same situation has happened before, with an old collie. It seems to always be with elderly people, they let the dog wonder and just be aggressive to anyone. I had to walk in the road to give enough space between ollie and this terrier.
Even if they know the difference, it wouldn't change the fact that he gets to run free and away from me. On on-lead walks, he wears a halti, or anything other than a halti is freedom to him. :005:
No he didn't bite him, but only cos i gave a wide enough berth to get around him.
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Laura, do you really intend never to let Ollie properly off lead? :huh: A long line is not off lead :shades: If so, then you will probably be the only person on here to do so :huh: If Ollie is not the sort of dog to go charging off then you should have no worries about recalling him to you should you need to. :shades:
And a dog on a lead barking at another passing dog is not necessarily being aggressive - Coco often barks at other dogs and people if she is on the lead but she is in no way aggressive. :-\
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Laura, do you really intend never to let Ollie properly off lead? :huh: A long line is not off lead :shades:
And a dog on a lead barking at another passing dog is not necessarily being aggressive - Coco often barks at other dogs and people if she is on the lead but she is in no way aggressive. :-\
Ditto this
Sorry, I know you are young Laura and I am making allowances for that, but honestly you really can not keep a spanial on a lead/long line just because of your insecurities
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Quite an interesting thread. I found that Rufus behaved very differently on the long line. Wouldn't be his normal self at all.Always came back and was quite subdued. It is strange how many owners look all concerned when my mad black cocker is haring about. Those who do not know him either realise that he is doing what cockers do, or quickly call their dogs to heel. This inevitably makes Rufus want to meet and greet. So their dog picks up on the tension. If people were more relaxed, I am sure the dogs would sort it out. Where I walk, we soon get to know the dogs with a reputation for true aggression. I manage this by trying to avoid them and altering when I set him free.
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I am going to keep him on a long line. Seriously, he's so laid-back and he doesn't need to burn off energy. I think he thinks he's a cavalier or something, he's not crazy or mad at home so he must be getting enough exercise for his energy. Have you seen the autumn park video? It shows him doing what he normally does on a long line, and you can see he's perfectly happy.
Well, I wouldn't want my dog barking at other dogs or people. What if that person was nervous of dogs, it'll just make them ten times worse.
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How can you say a dog does not need to burn off energy?
All dogs bark!
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I think you're being over-cautious tbh, :-\ Jarvis was let off lead young, and has attempted to approach every dog he's ever met since then ::) :005: his recall is something we practise on every walk, and it is generally very good, he's a fairly typical cocker in that he has his moments when it'll take a few calls to get him back, but he always comes because we practise so much. ;) With regards to meeting other dogs, Jarvis has met hundreds, and because he has practised his social skills so much he knows who to approach and who not to ;) in all his time he has only ever had one attack which was a real attack as such, and that was from an in-season bitch, so just down to hormones rather than an aggressive dog iykwim. Lots of dogs do get gobby with others when on lead (Jarvis included ::)) and it's an important part of their socialising IMO. the long line is a useful training tool, but it is just that, to be used for training, not an alternative to a recall. ;)
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Just seen the new reply. ::) ALL dogs need to burn off energy. The weight of a long line in my experience does make them potter more as running makes it harder work!
I actually think it is cruel to never give him a chance to run about properly like all dogs should. :(
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Ok, but (this is not in a rude way) do you all think about the people who may be nervous of dogs off lead? And also Ollie's not neutered, so it's also irresponsible to let him off lead.
Ollie doesn't bark at people or other dogs.
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Well, I wouldn't want my dog barking at other dogs or people. What if that person was nervous of dogs, it'll just make them ten times worse.
Barking is a dog's natural behaviour as is running around and exploring and meeting other dogs >:( I cannot imagine anyone thinking that it is acceptable to keep any dog, especially a spaniel, on a long lead for life >:( I know you are young Laura but everything in life has a risk attached to it and we just have to learn to manage that risk :shades:
Just seen the new reply. ::) ALL dogs need to burn off energy. The weight of a long line in my experience does make them potter more as running makes it harder work!
I actually think it is cruel to never give him a chance to run about properly like all dogs should. :(
Agree with Beth :-\Ok, but (this is not in a rude way) do you all think about the people who may be nervous of dogs off lead? And also Ollie's not neutered, so it's also irresponsible to let him off lead.
Ollie doesn't bark at people or other dogs.
Plenty of people on here have unneutered male dogs and they go off lead - do you really think there are in season bitches everywhere you go? Re people who are nervous of dogs - if you are in a park, with other dog walkers, most people will not be scared of a cocker pup. :-\
Tbh Laura, I think this is more about your insecurity and need to control Ollie than about anything bad he might do :-\
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Ok, but (this is not in a rude way) do you all think about the people who may be nervous of dogs off lead? And also Ollie's not neutered, so it's also irresponsible to let him off lead.
Ollie doesn't bark at people or other dogs.
If it's his wotsits which are stopping you letting him off then get the poor boy neutered for his own sake. ::)
Generally i've found that people who are nervous of off lead dogs don't tend to walk in dog walking hotspots.
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People in general that are nervous of dogs do not go to parks where everyone lets thier dogs off leads!
ALL dogs bark!
I have 2 entir dogs that are off lead every day! the only irresponsible people are people that would bring an in season bitch out to a dog walking area!
I think it is irresponsible to have a cocker spaniel, a dog known for having a lot of energy and not letting it have 'proper' exercise
may I ask what were your reasons for getting a dog?
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Of course I want to control him and keep hold of him. I don't want him to be run over or run away or get hurt. I'm a bit motherly over him. He's my little baby!!! But he's not that sort of dog that needs that much energy taken out. I know that most cockers need tons of exercise and off-lead exercise to get rid of all of their energy and if they don't they go mad, but Ollie's just not like that.
We have had a dog before, a cavalier, and she went off lead, sticking to us like glue. Very submissive too.
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How do you know he does not need off lead if you never let him!!!!!
He is a dog not a child, dogs NEED proper exercise
Life is full of unknowns, we all want to protect the animals/people in our lives, but they are also entitled to have a life too!!!!!!!
For instance, my son goes to school and comes home with bumps and bruises sometimes, does this mean I should not send him to school and keep him wrapped in cotton wool?
You owe it to your dog to let it have a full life, he is not just for grooming and showing, he has needs
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I can see both points of view here; I HATE it when off lead dogs run up to mine when they are on lead, and work damn hard to make sure that mine don't do this to other people :-\
It took me over a year of longline training to get to a point where I was confident enough with Molo's recall for me to let him off in areas where there were other dogs or hazards/distractions and be able to keep his attention (he is also entire)......so for about a year, the majority of his exercise was obtained through longline training. I did find and use secure paddocks and other areas (tennis courts are good) where I could let him off knowing that I would not have to recall him for any reason, so that his training wasn't set back.
Laura - if you want to train Ollie to ignore other dogs when he is off-lead (unless he is given permission) then the longline is a good way of achieving this; but I would encourage you - just once - to find somewhere like a secure paddock or sand school (they can be hired by the hour for small fee) and take Ollie along with a tennis ball and chuckit, let him off the lead and allow him total, secure, freedom in order for you to see the difference in his behaviour. Hopefully, this will encourage you to work towards the same freedom in more public areas and keep up the training in order to achieve it ;)
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Laura it seems that you are looking for reasons to justify your decision not to let Oliver run free when the priority should be seeking help overcome your own fears. Do you know a dog-savvy person that can walk with you and help build up your confidence ( and your confidence in Oliver) ? If not maybe a few one-to-one sessions in the park with your trainer would help. If you don't deal with it soon then you are just storing up potential problems for the future... Oliver will never learn if you don't allow him the chance to.
These two articles are worth reading, they may give you more of an insight into Oliver's needs and also help you understand his body language and that of other dogs you encounter in the park...
http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=2
http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1
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He does get proper exercise, he gets a 40 minute walk in the morning and then a park walk in the afternoon. He is running free, just with a piece of rope attached that's all. If he needed more exercise, i think he'd tell us by being mad/crazy/running around the house etc etc.
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Can I make a suggestion that may be a middle ground till you get more confidence with Ollie, who by the way sounds great with recall etc, why not just use a harness with a ver very short lead attached so you have something to get hold of, should you feel the need too, but Ollie gets the chance to explore without dragging a lead around. I am sure he will not present you with too many problems. Have confidence in yourself you have come so far with Ollie, it would be a shame to let these niggles stop you both having soo much fun.
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Laura, if you know best and you have already made up your mind, why did you ask the question? :shades: :huh: Presumably there is some doubt in your mind about whether you are doing the best for Ollie. :-\ I simply do not believe that a cocker will be happy with a couple of on lead (or long line, whatever) walks a day for the rest of his life :'(
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Can I make a suggestion that may be a middle ground till you get more confidence with Ollie, who by the way sounds great with recall etc, why not just use a harness with a ver very short lead attached so you have something to get hold of, should you feel the need too, but Ollie gets the chance to explore without dragging a lead around. I am sure he will not present you with too many problems. Have confidence in yourself you have come so far with Ollie, it would be a shame to let these niggles stop you both having soo much fun.
how short a lead? I wouldn't mind that, it's just like if he rushes past me, i need something to grab hold of. :005:
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short enough not to get tangled up round his legs, you can buy those short "town" leads that might do the trick. I don't think you will have any problems with him though.
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ok, i'll try on Saturday. :) He doesn't like his halti put on at the end, so he'll soon realise that coming back at the end means halti. Is there anyway I could get over this?
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I think you might find when he's had a good run you won't need the halti. Charlie pulls me to the park, but walks home quite relaxed.
Can you not leave the halti on and just take off the lead :huh: I can't remeber what they are like.
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He doesn't like the halti so i take it off so he can relax and have a good sniff round.
ETA: I may just walk him on his harness to and from the park if he's going to wear it anyway.
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Really glad you let Ollie off lead Laura and Im sure you can build up those minutes ;)
I can totally understand your fears for Ollie, what he might do, how he might behave etc.. but I think you might be pleasantly surprised at how sociable he would be towards other dogs and people. I understand your concerns, I, too don't want a dog that is going to have bad manners and knock down wee children or pensioners ph34r :005: You would never know the panic's Ive got myself into when Ive thought Chloe has either bogged off or gone to cheerfully greet an old Skye lady wearing a skirt!!! But its all part and parcel of being a new cocker Mum. The more you give them bits of freedom, the more they learn, and the more you can trust them. You're doing really well with Ollie, you just got to learn to trust him a bit more :luv:
And for what its worth, I think some posters on this thread have been somewhat harsh......I doubt very much if they would have used the same language had it been an "adult" who started this thread ph34r
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Make some livercake, take plenty with you and bite the bullet - it really doesnt sound like you will have a problem. Make sure you interact with him whilst he is off the lead - just because he is off lead it doesnt mean he can just amuse himself. Play ball, tuggy, do a bit of training, etc., and i think you will grow in confidence quickly (both of you!).
Personally i don't find there are that many aggresive dogs about (around here anyway) and dogs who appear aggresive on lead are usually all show. We have a dog near us that is terrifying on lead, but off lead is brilliant. I think they try and appear aggressive because on lead they know they cannot get away quickly.
Good luck
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My two run around (in open fields, so no risk of getting tangled in bushes etc) just as mad with haltis on as off. So you could leave it on if you wanted. It's actually a good way for them to get to like it more, as the then don't associate it with being on a lead all the time.
if you want to get him to not think 'halti means end of walk' I'd keep swapping.. let him run around for 5 mins with it on, call, reward, take it off... 5 mins later call, reward, put it back on... let him run around some more and so on! Particually good if 'halti on' means something fun, like having a ball thrown, 'halti off' means ball goes away and you let him go sniff around
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Laura - my dog Hurley wasn't socialised with other dogs properly as a puppy (nobody's fault - he was cooped up because he had an operation) as a result he did not learn any boundaries, nor did he learn how to read other dog's body language and my did it get him into trouble. If you don't let him mix with other dogs and learn his own lessons you are creating a rod for your own back. A bit like you, every time I saw another dog I put Hurley on the lead and he never learned how to say hello nicely, nor did he learn that not every dog is a nice dog. When I finally did pluck up the courage to just let him learn his own lessons there were a couple of incidents when he was told what he was doing was rude - and it sounded much worse than it actually was - he now socialises so much better with other dogs but it took a long time to get there, he actually went to socialisation classes to learn how to mix with other dogs (and that can be a pretty expensive way to learn - especially when you have the choice to socialise your dog properly - i didn't have that luxury)
One of your very first posts was about how you didnt want to let Ollie off the lead and I thought you'd been convinced otherwise.
You must let Ollie learn to mix with other dogs and you cannot use the longline as security forever - learn to trust him and yourself - there is nothing more satisfying that watching your dog play with other dogs - watching Hurley run round like a loon absolutely makes my day.
Read Jean Donaldson's book The Culture Clash - especially the chapter where she tries to make you put yourself in the shoes of a dog (where I think your 'master' is a race called the Gorns) it might make you think differently.
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I don’t know if this will be any help, but the first time I let Brodie off of her longline (aged 9 months), her ‘boyfriend’ :lol2: Rueben the westie was with us. She had that much fun with him that she stayed pretty much glued to his side, and as Rueben has good recall, she was guaranteed to not run off and bother other people.
I hope you have a good time on Saturday, it is nail biting letting them off, but you won’t regret it :blink:
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Have you ever not been able to get your dogs back?
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Sometimes he doesnt come back straight away - but I havent invested as much time as I probably should have on recall ph34r but (touch wood) I have never had a scenario when he runs off and hasnt come back - he's very good and doesnt tend to stray too far from me anyway - once he's said hello to the other dog (or read their body language that they dont want him to say hi!!) he usually comes back
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I know especially in London parks it can be a really scary experience to let dogs offlead but you've been offered some great advice.
There's nothing quite like seeing your dog running around having a ball and socialising with other (nice) dogs too ;)
Jarvis is entire, and yes this is a big consideration when I walk him, and when I know a bitch is in season I change my walking route so he doesn't encounter the scent or the dog - hopefully most people walking in-season dogs usually walk them on lead and/or wherever possible less desirable times of day so you're not so much in contact with them.
As for dog-nervous people, yes it is a consideration and dogs have that innate ability to approach people that aren't sure of them - but you know your dog and you know he would not be people aggressive so again, work on the recall ;)
Have you ever not been able to get your dogs back?
No, never. Always got him back.
When he was a pup it was more of a challenge but I never re-called him when he was playing with another dog as that would have been futile - not even livercake is more exciting than a new playmate.
I waited till there was a break in play and he looked my way, and then I recalled and was suitably excited (looked bonkers) when he came back to me for his livercake ;)
whistle training helped for us too.
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BTW - I noticed that Ollie is 8 months old - if he hasn't already entered the teenage months, he'll be doing that soon, which is when he will probably begin to test his boundaries with you - so if you really focus on recall now then you'll come out of this fine. It can be a nightmare when they decide they dont want to listen to you anymore and it is a shock the first time it happens but if you remain consistent and focused on your recall training now you'll come out of it ok ;)
Hurley is also entire and a couple of times he's run up to a bitch in season but it's never really caused a major problem - I guess Im lucky in that he's not driven by his nuts as much as some male dogs are ::)
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In certain situations I still have Alfie on a long line. I certainly do not consider it 'cruel'. I think that word is very harsh IMO, a dog that isnt exercised is 'cruel' ;) Alfie is now 13 months, but still 'in training' so to speak. He does go offlead, in safe areas, but a park with numerous exits to main roads in my eyes is completly irresponsible to take the chance if they are still being trained. :-\ I too could be considered as having hangups, but rather my dog is trained properly before taking that chance in that sort of environment than sorry.
We do visit the beach etc where he has full freedom, but I certainly wouldnt risk it 'in town' so to speak with access to busy roads. Laura work on your recall as Livercake suggests and take him somewhere really safe and let him run, everyone here are so right in that it is a joy to watch them run free. ;)
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Have you ever not been able to get your dogs back?
when I got kye, yes, frequently. First time i let him off he took off clear across the park, nearly onto a busy road
He's a rescue, came from kennels in Ireland, had not been socialised with other dogs, didn't really KNOW he IS a dog. Took me a good year, year and a half to crack it with him, and we still have moments. I honsetly thought he would stay on a lead for the rest of his days.
What fixed him, and me, was finding a lady who had german sheps and was prepared to walk with me in a totally fenced off football pitch in our local park, with 2 or 3 of her dogs (sh'es got 10), all offlead, and let me practise
1) IGNORING MY DOG around other dogs. The bit I found hardest to do.
2) Ignoring my dog around other dogs. the BIT I found HARDEST to do
3) getting him to come back.
and yes, i did mean to write that part twice ;)
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Have you ever not been able to get your dogs back?
The second time I let Brodie off of the lead, we were in the grounds of an old hospital with her sister. I recalled her, bent down to give her a reward, and she grabbed my glove and ran off. And would not stop. Eventually we turned and ran the other way and she came galloping back. It was terrifying, but it was a one off and she tends to stick to a set distance from us.
I find the time that she is less likely to respond promptly is when I first let her off her lead, so I tend to work very hard those first few minutes to ensure she is paying attention to me.
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Have you ever not been able to get your dogs back?
There's been a couple of occasions when I thought Chloe had gone for ever. Most of our walks are on forestry tracks and she goes off an a scent into the trees. She then becomes invisible! In the past three weeks there's been two occasions when I've been in tears cos I thought she'd gone, (one time she was away for 15 minutes) but of course, she came back! 80% of the time her recall is good and as much as I would like it to be 100%, we're not there yet, just have to keep working on it. But one thing I CAN say, is that she knows where I am, at any given point, and even if she doesn't come as soon as I blow the whistle,,,,she will eventually (unless, of course she gets trapped or hurt and that is always on my mind as well, cos Im as paranoid, if not more so, than you ph34r)
Just have to let them run free though...and accept the fact that nothing is entirely risk free ;)
Sue x
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We do visit the beach etc where he has full freedom, but I certainly wouldnt risk it 'in town' so to speak with access to busy roads.
I live in a town, with busy main roads everywhere. That's why it's very worrying to let him off. I bet most of you live in the country and have access to open fields. I don't, just city parks, with open exits to main roads. I have taken him to the beach and have let him off there, but I'm so far from beaches, that we only get to go every couple of months. :(
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We do visit the beach etc where he has full freedom, but I certainly wouldnt risk it 'in town' so to speak with access to busy roads.
I live in a town, with busy main roads everywhere. That's why it's very worrying to let him off. I bet most of you live in the country and have access to open fields. I don't, just city parks, with open exits to main roads. I have taken him to the beach and have let him off there, but I'm so far from beaches, that we only get to go every couple of months. :(
Yes, I can understand how much more difficult this can be...and I'm sure you're right, I would also bet most COLrs live in or near the country!!! I think it unlikely that Ollie would just head off to the nearest park exit...from what you say, he's a laid back boy and probably stays close. But Im no expert...see what others think ;)
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We do visit the beach etc where he has full freedom, but I certainly wouldnt risk it 'in town' so to speak with access to busy roads.
I live in a town, with busy main roads everywhere. That's why it's very worrying to let him off. I bet most of you live in the country and have access to open fields. I don't, just city parks, with open exits to main roads. I have taken him to the beach and have let him off there, but I'm so far from beaches, that we only get to go every couple of months. :(
I used to live by the sea and near the forest and huge parks that were away from any roads - but I have moved and have no choice but to exercise him in areas where it is open and near roads - however, he's good enough at recall for me to let him off and let him enjoy himself
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Can I make a suggestion that may be a middle ground till you get more confidence with Ollie, who by the way sounds great with recall etc, why not just use a harness with a ver very short lead attached so you have something to get hold of, should you feel the need too, but Ollie gets the chance to explore without dragging a lead around. I am sure he will not present you with too many problems. Have confidence in yourself you have come so far with Ollie, it would be a shame to let these niggles stop you both having soo much fun.
I agree with using a harness. You've got more to grab hold of if you do need to get him. ;) I was nervous to stop using the long line but it's great seeing Harvey run completely free, plus clumsy me doesn't have to worry about stopping him mid run when I accidentally tread on it :005:. Have you tried training him with a whistle. Harvey will stop chasing his ball the moment he hears that whistle and I always reward his return with a high value treat. My OH and I also sometimes hide behind trees or objects and call him back. He then makes sure we're always where he can see him!! I'm still in the easy stages with Harvey though so I'm expecting times when Harvey doesn't come back and I'm going to have to panic!!
In your defence, I think I remember hearing you live in city centre London. From my experience dogs within a city can be not as dog friendly, plus you're full of people who may not be fond of dogs and not want mucky paws coming bounding towards them. I don't think it's any harm trying to train Ollie to come back to you when you see another person/ dog coming towards you. I've fostered a dog aggressive dogs who showed no signs of warning before she would attack. When walking her (on lead) I found it frustrating when other dogs off lead came bounding towards her as she would give me no indication as to how she would react.
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Laura, I can't remember if you use a whistle...but hows about trying to teach Ollie the stop command with a whistle? Im trying this with Chloe, we haven't got very far yet, but...persaverence and consistency might pay off :005: If you do a search on here you're bound to find threads on gun dog training techniques...if not pm me...I have some info I could pm you.
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In your defence, I think I remember hearing you live in city centre London. From my experience dogs within a city can be not as dog friendly, plus you're full of people who may not be fond of dogs and not want mucky paws coming bounding towards them. I don't think it's any harm trying to train Ollie to come back to you when you see another person/ dog coming towards you. I've fostered a dog aggressive dogs who showed no signs of warning before she would attack. When walking her (on lead) I found it frustrating when other dogs off lead came bounding towards her as she would give me no indication as to how she would react.
This is right. Yeah, I'll train him to come back when he sees another dog/person. :)
ETa: This is what I use - http://www.dog-games.co.uk/newshop/product/Long+Line+-+ideal+for+Tracking+or+Supervised+Off+Lead+Walks.htm
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Laura I haven't read through all the post so sorry if something like this has already been posted ;). It took me about 7/8 months to train Millie using a long line (she was 18mths when I got her) and at the end of the training I was the one that had to be weaned off of it not the dog ;) :lol2:. It is really hard to trust them to come back and I have lost track of Millie a couple of times but thats only because she has an established chase problem so not something I think you would have to worry about with Oliver. I cut a couple of inches off the rope every week so it gradually disappeared rather than sudden horrible (for us ;)) freedom!
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What part of Central London are you in Laura and which parks do you walk in ?
I'm in Central London too and the vast majority of dogs go off lead, I've never met a Cocker yet that is restricted to onlead/long line walks in a London park - which goes to prove it can be done, it just takes a bit of work and training, like everything else. A positive attitude might help too, rather than looking for possible negatives... have you considered the one to one training in the park I suggested earlier ?
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I do live in the country but Coco goes off lead in parks in the town most days including in London when she has been up there with me ;) We met lots of off lead dogs in London and Coco had a ball exploring a new place and meeting new dogs. :luv: I deliberately took her to town parks as a pup so she could meet and socialise with other dogs and I still do so. There are exits all round where there is access directly onto the road. :o Yes, it was nerve wracking at first but I got over my nerves to let her have her freedom and it has not been a problem. Obviously I don't let her off lead until we are away from the gates and I carry plenty of treats. :005: As has been said, it might be easier if Ollie is with some of his friends as Coco tends not to wander if she has playmates there. ;)
What does your dog trainer think? Perhaps you could get some of the people from Ollie's training class to meet up with you in a park to help you with this? :huh:
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Jarvis was offlead quite a lot in parks in London when he was much younger - one was for a photo shoot where he had to be recalled back to me from a 'wait at a distance' along with 2 other dogs and their trainers from 100 metres away, and we were right at the edge of the park near an entrance.
Yes, it is frightening but you have to have faith in your dog and your own training abilities.
TBH I think Ollie would be far more interested in staying in a park and meeting and playing with other dogs rather than running for the exit ;)
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Laura,
First off, well done for sticking with this thread - I think some of the responses have been a little unkind (especially when everyone here knows how much effort you have put into giving Ollie good consistent training), and I think if I were in your position I would have run off and hid under a rock by now!! ph34r
There are lots of dogs who, for one reason or another, are never off lead - some for their safety, some for the safety of others, some because they have no recall, some because of injury/disability - this is not "cruel". From what Laura has said, Ollie does get more freedom than purely being "on-lead" as the long line is left to drag allowing him to potter about. He is about to enter his teenage months, when many people here have said they kept a long line on to ensure recall didn't disappear completely.
However, I do have to agree that there is nothing that compares to seeing your dog truly running free (without a long-line) as, once they realise there is nothing dragging behind them, there is a difference in behaviour... ;) I am not suggesting you go out tomorrow and ditch the long line (especially not the age he is), but make an effort to practice recall every time you are out. Get really confident in your recall - keep a special treat purely for a successful recall (it doesn't have to be food - could be a favourite game...). Once you are confident, let him off for short periods of time, gradually building up as your (and his) confidence grows. :D Call him back and let him go free again, call him back and put the long line on for a bit, call him back and do some loose lead training (without the halti), call him back and put the halti on and walk on a short lead for a bit - vary what you do when he comes back, and this should prevent him being reluctant to come back, as a lot of the time he gets to go off again! ;)
I fully appreciate how living in London influences how you feel about this - I used to live in Haringey and when my parents came to visit, they brought their dog (they were actually staying outside of London, but came in for a day to see me) - they went up to the local "park" to give her a run, and from the reactions of all the kids there you would have thought they had taken a wolf into the park - this was a Border Collie!! I'm sure if Flora had been younger, and my parents less confident that she wouldn't leave their side, they would have been reluctant to let her off.... however don't let others spoil the fun you can have with your dog - get 100% with his recall, and then if you come across someone who seems scared, you can call him back and do all kinds of tricks with him, which will be fun for you and Ollie, and might help the person see that your dog is no threat to them! ;)
It would be great if you could find somewhere absolutely secure to let him off in the meantime and play with a ball or something, but I do know in London this is probably a tall order! :shades:
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I think Livercake has the answer when she says that he will want to stay in the park when their are other dogs around. I used to find I had most success with Purdey off-lead when there were other dogs to play with, as I knew she would stick with them and not run for the exit.
It IS scary the first few times, but as long as you have a good selection of treats or toys (depending on which motivates him best) then he will have no reason to leave!
The park I used to take Purdey to was a small one with exits onto main roads on 3 sides, so i can sympathise, but if you are having success with Ollie on the long line there is no reason to suspect he would disappear when off-lead.
It does sound like he could do with more time being just allowed to play with other dogs though - 99.9% of dogs you meet in the parks will be friendly, and if you dont allow Ollie to be a puppy and greet dogs and be told off a little now, then soon he will lose his "puppy licence" and then he will get himself into trouble!. (For more info, read about the way puppies learn from older dogs here http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=2 ) Good luck
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That is so true, Indie used to get away with allsorts with other dogs when she was younger, ther must know she was a baby so are a lot more tolerant. However now she can get told off and she knows whether they want to play or not, she learnt so much from being off-lead from 11 weeks but I still get moments when my heart is in my mouth when she runs over to a dog we don't know.
On occasions. she gets half way and then stops and comes back to me as she must know the other dog does not want to play, guess she reads the doggie body language that I can't always see but thats from learning it from so young. Mine's fearless and not sure if thats a good thing some of the time, she has yet to have a bad experience and hope it stays that way.
I do put mine on lead though sometimes when I'm not 100% sure i.e. if there is a dog thats on lead walking but the majority of time she is off-lead.
Sometimes food isn't enough to keep Indie's attention but all I have to do is way my chuckit and ball and she comes running.
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Slightly off-topic this but I just want to correct the idea that London parks are any different to parks in other towns or cities, they aren't - people are no less dog-friendly at all, in my experience the reverse is probably the case as there are so many who'd love to own dogs but their busy lifestyle means they can't... people are always encouraging my dogs to jump all over them and they get more positive attention from strangers here than they've ever done in any other part of the UK I've walked them. Everywhere has it's own hazzards that can make recall a challenge - in the countryside you are more likely to come across horses, sheep, deer, rabbits etc, there's more undergrowth for the dogs to disappear into, fast flowing rivers to avoid etc... letting a dog offlead in London is no more problematic than anywhere else imo ( except possibly in the tourist/picnic season if you've got a greedy Cocker or three. >:( :lol2: ).
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all I have to do is way my chuckit and ball and she comes running.
This works for Chloe too, having a ball obsessed cocker can really be an advantage ;)
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all I have to do is way my chuckit and ball and she comes running.
This works for Chloe too, having a ball obsessed cocker can really be an advantage ;)
Ooh I did mean wave :005:
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Slightly off-topic this but I just want to correct the idea that London parks are any different to parks in other towns or cities, they aren't - people are no less dog-friendly at all, in my experience the reverse is probably the case as there are so many who'd love to own dogs but their busy lifestyle means they can't... people are always encouraging my dogs to jump all over them and they get more positive attention from strangers here than they've ever done in any other part of the UK I've walked them. Everywhere has it's own hazzards that can make recall a challenge - in the countryside you are more likely to come across horses, sheep, deer, rabbits etc, there's more undergrowth for the dogs to disappear into, fast flowing rivers to avoid etc... letting a dog offlead in London is no more problematic than anywhere else imo ( except possibly in the tourist/picnic season if you've got a greedy Cocker or three. >:( :lol2: ).
I'm sure this is the case for a lot of places, but certainly wasn't the case where I was living... I think, like everything, things can vary greatly from place to place. ;) TBH the local park wasn't somewhere I was particularly comfortable walking around... it certainly wasn't one of London's finest examples of green! :005:
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I too live in a city - 4 miles from Nottingham City Centre and both of my dogs have been off lead since they were 13 weeks old.
We go to Parks and practice recall every day!
Both of my dogs are happy with a lead walk now they are 5 yrs old....althought they LOVE a good run too.....When they were under 3 they had to have a run every day.....when they were Ollie's age they could give or take it as growing and learning tired them out more than running.....
I would teach him now to come back to you so when he begins to demand more exercise you are ready...
Maybe Colin or one of COL's other London members could meet you to help you and give you confidence?
Janey
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letting a dog offlead in London is no more problematic than anywhere else imo ( except possibly in the tourist/picnic season if you've got a greedy Cocker or three. >:( :lol2: ).
Picnic season in Cardiff is a nightmare as well, even worse if I venture near the cricket club around about 4 at the weekend when they all stop for tea
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I really sympathise.We're in north London during the week, so Hattie (6 months) is too. Knowing she could bolt out of the park into the road (which she did once when she was really little and someone slammed a car door and surprised her) is scary and it's easy to worry that she might meet really agressive dogs or grumpy people, but she's been off lead at some point on most walks since almost her first walk as the guy who ran the socialisation class we went to stressed how important it was. She was great, wouldn't go far from us and if she didn't come back when we called would come straight back if we started walking the other way. Then she went to stay with my parents while we were on holiday after Christmas and when we came back (only 2 weeks later!) she was a bit teenage - much bolder, with very selective hearing. We've worked really hard at her recall since (lots of thanks to Top Barks Mark and the really reliable recall thing he posted) and it's much better but we won't call her if we think she's not going to come back. Which means, just now, she's not off-lead if there are too many distractions. But, having said all that, it's amazing how helpful and friendly people usually are when I'm mortified that my small ginger dog is jumping all over their beautifully behaved dog and I can't get hold of her or distract her, and also how useful REALLY smelly treats that she REALLY wants are. And how much fun being free is for her. So I say, be brave and do try and stick with it. I loved the idea that someone posted about cutting a little bit off the long line each week!
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Just to say that I'm keeping him on long line for life. Please don't say I'm cruel, he's happy, really happy. You should have seen him today, charging around the park (on his long line) having the time of his life. He went to see a dog and it works really well with me holding onto the line at the end and controlling the meet. He's happy, I'm happy. :D :D :D :D
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Just to say that I'm keeping him on long line for life. Please don't say I'm cruel, he's happy, really happy. You should have seen him today, charging around the park (on his long line) having the time of his life. He went to see a dog and it works really well with me holding onto the line at the end and controlling the meet. He's happy, I'm happy. :D :D :D :D
I understand entirely why you are saying that :-*
I am sure that as you and Ollie get older and more confident you will change your mind, though ;). The though of never being able to let Molo off lead when he was an adolescent used to leave me in tears :'(
Perhaps you could save, or ask for money for a birthday/Christmas so you can rent a secure paddock for an hour now and again ? ;)
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Just to say that I'm keeping him on long line for life. Please don't say I'm cruel, he's happy, really happy.
I wouldn't say cruel, but I would say unnecessary :-\ There is nothing like seeing other off lead well behaved dogs in the park etc having a good run around, enjoying themselves. Work on his recall. It takes time, patience, and quite often a few tears, but definitely worth it in the long run :-\
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Why? He is running free as I've said many times on this thread. I only get the end of the line when we see another dog, and I assess whether we can say hello, and if we can, I let him go say hello. He's running around "off lead" with the long line not attached to me the rest of the time.
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havent read this thread from the start, so i do apologise! It seems from other posters that people all have different thoughts on this.
I live in the country, Alfie and honey were off lead from 12 weeks ( as soon as could go out) Alfie is BRILLIANT, always comes back but honey would rather play with other dogs although she can sometimes access the language!
Ive never taken mine to a city park, they always run free over woodland, and the racecourse!
At this moment in time for you both, the long line is suiting you both prefectly and only you know hoe happy your little boy is!
Your opinion may change at a later date and decide to let him off without the long line, but when you do, just make sure you have lots of yummy treas!!!!!
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He's not offlead, he's on a longline. He is still restricted, however the long the line is. I'm just don't understand the reluctance to teach him a reliable recall. From your other posts re Ollie, he sounds like a really intelligent, biddable dog, who would pick up recall really quickly :huh:
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He's not restricted. How can he be restricted when the long line is not attached to me? Seriously, I don't get that that is restrictive. He does run out of the long line but I just let him keep running. He's allowed to run wherever he likes and as far as he likes, as long as he is in hearing distance and sight.
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i remember all the worry bout letting Alfie and Honey off.......my god! but from a young age i used to hide from them to "worry" my little
devils angels.
Both stay within distance, the panic and worry about them returning will always be there!!! even i know they are trained very wel they still worry me sick now when i go out. Its always worry, but obviously you know your own god.
Have you tried taking ollie to a nice country park before and actually tried letting him run free, taking a favourite ball!?
With regards to putting the halti on at the end of the walk, i always ensure during a walk i keep calling them back with regualr treats so they never know when the lead is going on. I never want them to think that if i call them back its because of the lead, otherwise they wil never come back!!! you just need to keep encouraging them to come back!
Have you ever been on a COL meet before? maybe thats a good place to start!
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I think as long as Ollie’s happy, then that’s the main thing… :luv: I really do understand what you are going through - when Brodie was his age, I thought the same as you and that she would be on the longline for life - one month later I felt brave enough to let her off… . It is scary, and I’ve got to say she’s still more on the longline than off, but I‘m learning to trust her. It would be great if you could find a place you felt confident to let him off, because it was only when I started walking in a certain area that I felt comfortable enough to do so. I understand that it must be hard to find a place like that in London though.
If you feel that that you can't quite trust him enough to let him off and he is happy, then I think you are doing what is right... hopefully in the future, like others say, you will gain the confidence to lose the longline.
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Thanks. :) Yeah, I call him back during the walk too, especially when he's gone just a little too far, and he does come rushing back. :)
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Ollies needs and personality may still change......even if he's not the manic cocker!! by god, you are so lucky !! :005: are you sure he is a cocer then, lol!! could i have him to try and calm my cockers down?
But he is still young and the training will be on going so both situations may change, his needs and your trust!! Until then. just keep up what your doing!
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:'( :'( :'(
That is a real shame.
Please don't say you are going to keep him on a line for life but keep an open mind :shades:
I really hope you change your mind :-\
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:'( :'( :'(
That is a real shame.
Please don't say you are going to keep him on a line for life but keep an open mind :shades:
I really hope you change your mind :-\
Why? He's happy.
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:'( :'( :'(
That is a real shame.
Please don't say you are going to keep him on a line for life but keep an open mind :shades:
I really hope you change your mind :-\
agree with Joules and think it's a shame for Ollie TBH :-\ Hope you get the confidence to work with him offlead, after all at the very beginning of this thread you were elated you managed to have him offlead :huh:
How do you know he's truly happy on a long line if you don't have the comparison of him off lead (properly) to measure against? :huh:
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He was having the time of his life today, and running around and really enjoying himself. He loved it. And he was on a long line. I'll take a video tomorrow of him having fun, so everyone can see how happy he is. :)
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Ollie will never learn true doggy social skills if you intercept with a long line each time he approaches amother dog. He needs to work things out for himself and sometimes that means him getting "put in his place" by other dogs. Charlie was never allowed this feedom as a pup, I know this for a fact, and it has taken me 2 1/2 years to get him okish with dogs he meets, he just desn't talk and read dog well! For Ollies development you need to let him go. I know it's hard it took me ages to get confidence to do this, I spent ages at tennis courts etc where I knew he was safe.
I too hope you change your mind, whilst I do understand its cos you care.
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:'( :'( :'(
That is a real shame.
Please don't say you are going to keep him on a line for life but keep an open mind :shades:
I really hope you change your mind :-\
Why? He's happy.
He was having the time of his life today, and running around and really enjoying himself. He loved it. And he was on a long line. I'll take a video tomorrow of him having fun, so everyone can see how happy he is. :)
Laura - while I understand and support your decision, I think you need to accept that few COL members would agree with a situation where any dog, of any breed, is kept on a long-lead for life, with no opportunity, ever, for them to run free totally unencumbered by any form of lead or harness.
Of course, there are times when it is advisable, and necessary - but it is viewed by most dog owners as a temporary measure - and in fact the new Animal Welfare laws could be interpreted to mean that all dogs should, by law, be allowed to run free in this way :-\
If you are not happy to let him off his long line in a public place throughout his life, then it is your responsibility to make arrangements to ensure that he does get the chance to do this. If you won't, then you will find that dog lovers will judge you harshly, as you are not offering Ollie opportunities to behave in a natural way :-\
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Why is it so important for a dog to be truely off-lead? I know some dogs who never go off-lead or never ever go to a park or open area and don't have them on a long line, just walks on a short lead. This is cruel in my opinion. At least I take him to the park and let him run and run and run.
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Why is it so important for a dog to be truely off-lead? I know some dogs who never go off-lead or never ever go to a park or open area and don't have them on a long line, just walks on a short lead. This is cruel in my opinion. At least I take him to the park and let him run and run and run.
Try tying a long piece of rope around your waist and going for a jog, then take it off and go for a jog, and tell us which YOU would prefer to do.
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Laura, can I ask you this? Deep in your heart of hearts would you not like to feel comfortable about letting Ollie run completely free? What about going to the beach for example. What would you rather see...Ollie running around on the sand COMPLETELY free...or still attached to a line? Also, with regard to meeting other dogs, if you keep total control of who Ollie is allowed to meet and who he isn't, I don't think Ollie is going to learn for himself how to behave and socialise; he's far less likely to learn and interpret doggy language in my opinion.
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Ideally, I would like to see him completely free, but we don't live in an ideal world. With regard to meeting dogs, I think it's better if I stop him getting hurt rather than let him meet every tom, dick and harry.
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Ideally, I would like to see him completely free, but we don't live in an ideal world. With regard to meeting dogs, I think it's better if I stop him getting hurt rather than let him meet every tom, dick and harry.
But it is SO unlikely that he would get hurt, Jarvis has had his fair share of tellings off, and has never actually been injured (other than a bit of pride ;)) and IMO it has made him a much better dog around others. I meet undersocialised dogs sometimes and i can spot from a mile off a dog which hasn't been allowed to learn from their mistakes, they are often rude and bolshy with other dogs. >:(
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Ideally, I would like to see him completely free, but we don't live in an ideal world. With regard to meeting dogs, I think it's better if I stop him getting hurt rather than let him meet every tom, dick and harry.
But it is SO unlikely that he would get hurt, Jarvis has had his fair share of tellings off, and has never actually been injured (other than a bit of pride ;)) and IMO it has made him a much better dog around others. I meet undersocialised dogs sometimes and i can spot from a mile off a dog which hasn't been allowed to learn from their mistakes, they are often rude and bolshy with other dogs. >:(
I agree with Beth 100% even though Charlie is rubish with other dogs he has never been injured, although he's had a fair few tellings off from other dogs.
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I agree with Beth too. I think you should take a leap of faith to be honest, and let him do his own socialising. As a matter of interest, how do you decide which dogs you let him meet and which you don't?
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Ideally, I would like to see him completely free, but we don't live in an ideal world. With regard to meeting dogs, I think it's better if I stop him getting hurt rather than let him meet every tom, dick and harry.
But it is SO unlikely that he would get hurt, Jarvis has had his fair share of tellings off, and has never actually been injured (other than a bit of pride ;)) and IMO it has made him a much better dog around others. I meet undersocialised dogs sometimes and i can spot from a mile off a dog which hasn't been allowed to learn from their mistakes, they are often rude and bolshy with other dogs. >:(
I agree with Beth 100% even though Charlie is rubish with other dogs he has never been injured, although he's had a fair few tellings off from other dogs.
wot they both said ;)
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If the dog wants to say hello, is interested in Ollie, excited body language, etc, I let him meet. If the dog is not interested, scared, couching away, or is aggressive in body lanuage, then I don't. Also some owners don't want their dogs to say hello to ollie so I look for their approval too.
He is really good with other dogs, he goes to classes and meets tons of dogs there so he is well socialised.
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Why is it so important for a dog to be truely off-lead? I know some dogs who never go off-lead or never ever go to a park or open area and don't have them on a long line, just walks on a short lead. This is cruel in my opinion. At least I take him to the park and let him run and run and run.
Yes, you are offering Ollie far more than many dogs experience, but that doesn't mean that the compromise you are proposing is ideal :-\
The Animal Welfare Act 2006 refers to what are known as the Five Freedoms and makes owners and keepers responsible for ensuring that the welfare needs of their animals are met.
These freedoms are the need:
1. For a suitable environment (place to live)
2. For a suitable diet
3. To exhibit normal behaviour patterns
4. To be housed with, or apart from, other animals (if applicable)
5. To be protected from pain, injury, suffering and disease
It is not possible of Ollie to exhibit normal behaviour patterns while he has a rope/line trailing behind him; he will always be aware of it, and this will affect the way in which he behaves and interacts with other dogs, and the extent to which he will run, explore and play. All animals have an exceptional awareness of the limitations they are subject to; this is because they are not too far removed from their wild ancestors who had to know exactly what they were capable of in order to stay alive :-\
I understand that it is the fear of injury that worries you - the horror stories I have read on COL about the nature of some of the owners in city parks speak for themselves - but I don't understand why you (and your parents) won't accept your responsibility as Ollies owners by renting space privately in order to ensure he lives life to his maximum potential :-\
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But you're only letting him socialise with friendly dogs? In which case he's not that well socialised ::) he HAS to learn that some dogs aren't going to like him.
Tbh Laura, you seem to come on here asking for advice, then when you get given fantastic advice by the bucket load, you ignore it and argue your point as to why you're ignoring it. ::) :huh:
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I'm tempted to lock this as Laura seems to have made up her mind ... but will leave it open for the time being in the hope that the replies may be useful to anyone else in a similar position.
Personally I don't think there's any comparison between a dog running offlead and one on a longline. They are a useful training aid in the short term, I used one on Stevie for a while and it worked really well but I couldn't wait to get her off it - I found it was constantly getting wrapped around me, my dogs, other owners, other people's dogs, trees etc... I once saw a child thrown from her bike after it got caught up in another dog's line. If I'm honest I found it a bit of a menace to everyone and everything around and felt quite selfish for using one in a busy public park... but it was only for a week or so, never a permanent measure.
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I'll make the video tomorrow so you'll all see how happy he is and what I am doing.
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If the dog wants to say hello, is interested in Ollie, excited body language, etc, I let him meet. If the dog is not interested, scared, couching away, or is aggressive in body lanuage, then I don't. Also some owners don't want their dogs to say hello to ollie so I look for their approval too.
He is really good with other dogs, he goes to classes and meets tons of dogs there so he is well socialised.
a dog not making direct eye contact with your dog (ie looking away and not looking interested) is actually a positive sign - direct eye contact is not such a good sign.
what do you mean by 'aggressive in body language'?
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like barking, growling, dominant etc.
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I'll make the video tomorrow so you'll all see how happy he is and what I am doing.
I don't think it will change my opinion, tbh - I used a long line for over a year in all public places with Molo in exactly the way you describe, and I know how Molo behaved and interacted when he was wearing it.
I also know how differently he behaved when we went to a private field, and the line/harness came off - and he ran faster than I had ever seen him run before, and how he rolled and jumped around in a way he couldn't with the line attached :-\
Ollie deserves the chance to behave naturally - I just don't understand why someone who loves their dog so much, and has dedicated so much time to him, refuses to consider this as an option :huh:
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Dogs don't know the difference between a long line and off lead if they have never been off lead. They just cope with what they have and be happy. He doesn't know what it's like to be off lead so he won't miss it. He's not unhappy cos he can't be off lead, he doesn't know what it is.
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I found it was constantly getting wrapped around me, my dogs, other owners, other people's dogs, trees etc... I once saw a child thrown from her bike after it got caught up in another dog's line. If I'm honest I found it a bit of a menace to everyone and everything around and felt quite selfish for using one in a busy public park
Good point Colin
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Of course, there are times when it is advisable, and necessary - but it is viewed by most dog owners as a temporary measure
I agree
Plus you may only ever be able to walk him then in certain areas just because a longline really isn't suitable for some and yet he might miss out on a lovely experience (as would you). I've just been out walking with my 2 for 3 hours and they had a whale of a time racing up and down these woodland banks where a longline would be a no-no (these banks were about 100 m or more high and covered with bracken, some brambles and trees and their bums were wiggling all over the place and are happier in these sort of areas than anywhere).
We can understand how you feel its necessary to keep him on it for life but please try to wean yourself off this - it is important for him not to be a pain in the bum charging up to everyone but you can train him not to do this with practice, hard work and a lot of patience.
I know you live in London but take him off on the train (its free for him to travel on trains and most buses) somewhere out to the country and see for yourself how much fun he can have offlead - may be you can even join in with a cocker meetup somewhere out of London for some support
Lets face it you've come this far and we remember how tough it was at the beginning but please don't stop now.
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like barking, growling, dominant etc.
lots of cockers bark and growl in play, but it's just that, play - and if another dog is dominant then Ollie will learn to back down or return the favour. It IS scary to see your dog interacting like this but I would say 99 % of dog meetings do not end in a fight - yes sometimes there will be teeth and growling and air snapping but that's where it ends.
Once they sort themselves out then they'll either play or go their own way....
here you are - Jarv telling Apple to back off - 1 minute later they were running together playing :luv: he did NOT bite her ;)
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a266/jarvis_2005/IMG_0967crop.jpg)
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a266/jarvis_2005/IMG_0909.jpg)
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He doesn't know what it's like to be off lead so he won't miss it.
Your dog is not on a long line in the garden or at home, so he DOES know the difference. I'm not saying that is making him any less happy, but I do feel a dog, ESP when a pup should be allowed to approach other dogs.
What happens if, God forbid, he gets out of your house/garden and runs off to say hello to another dog? you've not taught he to recall, and the nolvety of going to say hello is much stronger than you calling.
IMO the only way to get a RELABILE recall around other dogs is to allow them to interact with other dogs.. THEN call them away, for liverbread/chicken etc
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Dogs don't know the difference between a long line and off lead if they have never been off lead. They just cope with what they have and be happy. He doesn't know what it's like to be off lead so he won't miss it. He's not unhappy cos he can't be off lead, he doesn't know what it is.
Do you really want to subject your dog to a lifetime of just "coping" with what he's given? :huh: :o You don't WANT him to experience freedom, and real joy? :o :'(
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Dogs don't know the difference between a long line and off lead if they have never been off lead. They just cope with what they have and be happy. He doesn't know what it's like to be off lead so he won't miss it. He's not unhappy cos he can't be off lead, he doesn't know what it is.
No one is disputing he isn't a happy dog but it would make him a lot happier, trust me - the joy of seeing a cocker offlead in some areas will make you 'fill up' as to the sheer joy of watching them. I wish I was nearer as I'd then show you how to gain your confidence with him.
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Hattie is full-on and wants to play with anyone so has been barked or growled at quite a few times. It just teaches her that not everyone wants to play with her. It has never been followed up by anything worse and it has never stopped her going straight up to the next dog she meets and try and play. She is now getting much better at knowing who wants to say hallo and who doesn't want to be bothered by a pesky puppy. Today we had a great off-lead walk, she said hallo to three dogs along the way and each time then came back to us and carried on - which is the first time that's happened, and it's great, and it is only because we've given her the (supervised) opportunity to learn to do so.
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like barking, growling, dominant etc.
lots of cockers bark and growl in play, but it's just that, play - and if another dog is dominant then Ollie will learn to back down or return the favour. It IS scary to see your dog interacting like this but I would say 99 % of dog meetings do not end in a fight - yes sometimes there will be teeth and growling and air snapping but that's where it ends.
Once they sort themselves out then they'll either play or go their own way....
here you are - Jarv telling Apple to back off - 1 minute later they were running together playing :luv: he did NOT bite her ;)
Awwwwwww scary Jarv :luv: :luv: :luv: :005:
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Dogs don't know the difference between a long line and off lead if they have never been off lead. They just cope with what they have and be happy. He doesn't know what it's like to be off lead so he won't miss it. He's not unhappy cos he can't be off lead, he doesn't know what it is.
Did your trainer tell you that? :huh: Applying your logic, then a dog which has been kept confined and never seen daylight will be *happy* because they don't know anything else.....do you really that is true?
It is our responsibility as dog owners to maximise their quality of life - not justify our shortcomings and assuage our guilt by believing that they don't miss what they have never had.
I'm bowing out of this thread, now - I am disappointed, Laura - so many people have helped and advised you over the last few months, I just don't understand why you are no longer committed to Ollies welfare in the way you were when you first joined COL :huh:
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Can we cut Laura some slack here please. She obviously adores Ollie, the dogmatic approach on any subject doesn't work, in my opinion. Laura needs to work things out for herself and Ollie in her own way and I'm sure she will. They have both come on in leaps and bounds with encouragement, not censure.
Eve
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I find on the whole all mine are much better when meeting other dogs if they, themselves are off lead :D - maybe cos they know they have an escape route if needed.
Think Katie and Smudge would be very unimpressed with a longline attached, specially while rushing thro the bracken and puddles. Dangerous too as it could easily get snared up and avoid their escape from a nasty situation (getting caught on brambles comes to mind)
From Penny B
I wish I was nearer as I'd then show you how to gain your confidence with him.
That would be good, I think confidence is essential b4 letting Ollie off or Laura will be so worried, it will defeat the object of letting him off to enjoy himself!!
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I'll make the video tomorrow so you'll all see how happy he is and what I am doing.
Don't bother making the video. You will never convince me that keeping a healthy dog on a line for life is acceptable :'( :'( Since you seem to have made up your mind I will give up as I and everyone else on here who has offered you excellent support and advice seem to wasting our time :-\
Can we cut Laura some slack here please. She obviously adores Ollie, the dogmatic approach on any subject doesn't work, in my opinion. Laura needs to work things out for herself and Ollie in her own way and I'm sure she will. They have both come on in leaps and bounds with encouragement, not censure.
Sorry, but Laura has posted on here asking for peoples' opinions - so that is what she has got ph34r
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The thing I find quite sad in all this is that Ollie hasn't actually got any issues himself. It is what "may" happen with other dogs that is causing you concern. If Ollie had issues ie wanting to fight other dogs etc then I'd comletely understand why you needed to keep him on the long line. It just seems such a shame . I also think you have done ssoooo well with him so far :blink:
I maybe wrong here but I get the impression that someone is putting these ideas into your head ?
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Was going to stay away from this but.....................is there anyone who could have mini meet up with Laura and Ollie and give her some moral support?
Maybe seeing some other dogs being off lead and and extra pair of hands would make her feel more secure about letting Ollie off?
I know how scary it is when you let dogs off lead to begin with, but if your in a quiet area and have some good support with a few people around and a few other dogs to keep him interested, it might work better?
Just a thought :-\
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Can we cut Laura some slack here please. She obviously adores Ollie, the dogmatic approach on any subject doesn't work, in my opinion. Laura needs to work things out for herself and Ollie in her own way and I'm sure she will. They have both come on in leaps and bounds with encouragement, not censure.
Eve
The key word there is encouragement
Everyone is posting with ideas AND encouragement on HOW TO IMPROVE HIS OFFLEAD SKILLS. But Laura is turning down those offers and then defending something, which in my view FROM HAVING AN UNSOCIALISED DOG, will cause her a LOT more problems in the longer term.
I'm not saying she shouldn't continue to use a long line in certain situations. I just don't see how it can be a life long solution to a training issue.
It took me well over a year to undo the damage caused to Kye through not being socialised. There were many 'heart in my mouth' moments. BUT i now have a dog I KNOW will come back away from other dogs 99% of the time. And he's a million times happier than being on a lead and getting tangled in bushes etc
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Being a first time doggy mum I myself was very wary of letting Cooper off lead at first & actually went thru last winter (4 to 7 months old stage) mainly on long line walks (altho that was partly because he's black & i was scared of losing him in the dark! :005: ) However come the lighter nights & having done recall training in the house, in the garden (off lead) & on the long line I started to let him off. If I dont have a tennis ball with me his recall isnt perfect as he wants to go & speak to every dog he sees. You soon learn which dogs will &wont tolerate your dog saying hello & just today Cooper was given a row & chased by a yorkie who didnt want to say hello :005: . If I have a tennis ball then Cooper focuses on that & that alone & anything could be happening around him & he's not interested!
My neighbour Irene has a gorgeous blue merle collie, Dave, who was a "private rescue" as she got him from a work colleague. Dave generally does not like entire male dogs. He's fine with castrated dogs & Cooper (entire) as he's known him since a pup, but no others & he especially hates labs! Should Dave be on lead forever because of this? (which is an issue he developed before Irene got him) Well, Irene has worked hard on Dave's recall & she lets him off in the park when it's safe to do so & he & Cooper run amok. However Irene remains alert & as soon as she spots another dog which may cause Dave a problem she recalls him & he is put on the lead & she will back off to allow around 6 to 10 feet - Daves comfort zone - while the other dog passes. My point in saying all this is that i think EVERY dog deserves the freedom of off lead walks, no matter what problems they (or their owners) may or may not have!
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I met a lady yesterday with a young and bouncy Springer who was desperate to go and play with my lot but she was very like Laura (although a little older) and felt she could not trust her dog to come back if off lead. She therefore walks it on an extenable lead which is better than not taking him out at all.
However, if she has someone with her, she does let him off, especially if she's given herself time to deal with him. I get the feeling that Laura is doing a lot, if not all Ollie's training herself and on her own most of the time, so perhaps with a companion to meet up with her and a trusted recall dog, maybe in time she willl feel able to give Ollie his freedom.
Believe me, Louie can be a pain in the **** for not coming back and I do use the long-line for him but despite the fact he's fine on it and accepts it, it's me who feels awfull keeping him on it for too long and therefore use it for times he needs a bit of a reminder what recall is. Sadly if it's me or the bunnies in the briars, there's no comparison ;) my fault as I should make sure it's 100% but we are walking in pretty safe areas.
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I think too it depends how much time we have when on walkies, sometimes it seems the shorter time we have - the more likely that recall will take that much longer, or at least it seems to. ;)
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Try to get Ollie really focused on something if you can - mine are ball obsessed out and about (or at least anything that I can chuck and they can then find for me - mine love being able to search for things in long grass or rough ground). Someone has been camping in one of the fields we walk in sometimes and it was a nightmare last weekend trying to get Wilf away from the rubbish they'd left behind and even when I'd put him on lead then let him off quite a way away he'd still run back to it - today I had a ball and he actually headed for the rubbish again and when I excitedly produced this ball (yes I made a big deal out of it as if it was the most exciting thing I'd ever had) and he was all mine and totally forgot about the rubbish pile. This is always my reserve plan for emergencies, ie if I need to distract him away from something urgently.
You have to make a complete fool of yourself when teaching recall - I hear/see so many who are very quiet and unexciting when trying to call their dogs and they just stand there so of course the dog takes one look and carries on ignoring them. One owner was forever saying his dog didn't listen to him - I could hardly hear him call his dog's name and he was standing next to me so no wonder.
I regulary have foster dogs who I don't know what their recall is like so I let them offlead a few days after they arrive (there was only one I didn't and that was because she was a working terrier who would never been focused on me enough as she wanted to kill everything small in sight). When I do I'm armed with tennis balls, tug toy and high value treats - I then let them sniff around and let them run a little way then I run around getting them to chase me, screaming their name to follow me or I practise getting them to come to me (as I do I jump up and down waving my arms then as they get closer walk or run a little backwards beckoning them in, to sit at my feet then give them a treat and lots of excited praise then release them). Its all about making yourself really interesting and making everything fun for them. Also don't wait to recall him when he's gone to far to either care or hear you.
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Just thought of something else, when Hattie is on lead we still call her and reward her for checking in. Often. This has made her much more attentive and reliable off lead
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I love seeing Darcey interact with other dogs. If I see them before her she gets recalled and put onlead until I figure out if the owner is happy for them to be offlead together. If she sees them first however.... >:(
She is a daft puppy and doesn't always realise that not all dogs want to play - hence she has been snapped and growled at a couple of times. It does her good, she is a puppy and leads to learn. Also you can't read other dogs body language - you are not a dog - and sometimes the meekest appearing dogs are the ones that will snap at her while the more "aggressive" as you put it are actually just up for having a good run around and play. Darcey has never yet been bitten and is learning valuable skills on how to be a dog!
If she doesn't like the other dog she'll come back to me ;)
Be brave. It'll be worth it.
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Laura it really does seem like the rope is only there to make you feel safe. If Ollie can run around free as you've posted then a standard 10 metre long line would be well out of reach most of the time. When I started my training with Millie I had to use a 30 meter rope to give a feel that she was 'off lead' while I could still reach it to stop her. And even then it was a close call sometimes! I can understand why you feel like you do as I felt the same when Charlie was going through adolescence and then again with Millie. But you can do it if you give yourself enough time and do it gradually, Ollie sounds like a lovely boy who has a good recall for a dog his age ;).
A few of points you might want to consider with keeping him on a long line forever:
Are you using a harness? Otherwise the constant drag on his neck will hurt him and if he got wrapped up in something and then tried to run he could really injure himself.
In the summer when the grass has been cut it can ball up on the rope and create massive drag and pick up lots of dog poo!
It does affect their behaviour - Millie started to avoid going near big clumps of grass and shrubs as she would get stuck. Her favourite thing now she's off the rope is to hunt mice in the long grass ;).
The most important thing is that they can be really dangerous. As Colin said her saw a girl pulled off her bike. When Millies rope was down to about 7 meters she tripped my Mum up and she broke her wrist and badly bruised her hip.
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It is a standard long line and so yes, it does run out most of the time. But I still feel safer with it being on. He is on a harness with the long line.
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Have read through all this and I must say it does sound as if its a "trusting your dog" issue. Ollie seems as if he is quite a well behaved dog who is unlikely to run away from you.
Have to admit that my first dog Indie wasn't let off lead until she was 6 months old, because I was terrified that she would run away. When I did get the courage to trust her she was as good as gold, and after the initial interest in meeting other dogs she was much more interested in being with me.
Roly is about the same age as Ollie, and he is no angel, but he has been allowed off lead from the moment his jabs were finish (as was Misha). He loves to go and meet other dogs and is quite an expert at it now - if we meet a friendly dog I always let him have a play (if the other owner is happy to) and most are because it means the dogs have a really good run around (good exercise to tire them out). Just recently when we were out there was a whole group of dogs playing & racing around - Roly & Misha, a field spaniel, a lab, a greyhound and a heinz variety - they all had a great time and it was great to see, because they were really having fun. Ok there was a bit of ruff & tumble but none of the dogs seemed to mind. When you see them having so much fun it really lifts your spirits. However, when we decided to move on with our walk Roly followed me, and he does this everytime we meet other dogs, he'll say hello, but if I'm walking on he comes with us.
I know that I've been a lot more relaxed with Misha & Roly, but I think its made them much more relaxed dogs - if they do meet an unfriendly dog they leave it alone, it doesn't scar them for life and usually they've forgotten about it by the time they meet the next dog (usually about 10 mins).
From other posts that you've written it seems quite clear that you have a good bond with Ollie. It doesn't sound as if Ollie has a recall problem. But if you want to be sure work on your recall in the garden (with a whistle), so that Ollie knows exactly what you mean. I'm sure you'll find that he'll behave himself.
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Laura - do you have a friend you could meet up with (or better still someone who lives near you on COL) that could help build your confidence.
Can you find somewhere new to try him offlead - they are usually less likely to bog off if they don't know where they are?
Can i just ask what it is you are most worried about - him being attacked by other dogs, or him not returning to you when you call him. IMO opinion the solution is very different between one and the other.
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Took him to the park again today with him on long line. He was very good. I waited until he was about 40m away at least, and recalled him. And he came rushing back. He got loads of praise and treats. The line was far away from me as it's only 10m but I still felt safe. :? I'm a very controlling person (if you haven't already noticed. :005:) and I like to feel in control 100% of the time. Most of the walk today from him being about 20-30m from me but I still felt fine, even though the long line was far out of my reach. He did though try to get to someone who was playing football and I had to get the line and lead him away. I suppose that's the reason why I want him on long line, so he doesn't bother other people and dogs. I wouldn't like it if a strange dog came pounding up to me whilst I was walking in the park. Yeah, I love dogs, but it's a bit unnerving. So I don't think it's fair on other people (unless they welcome Ollie) to have to put up with a dog going over to them. Until I can 100% make him understand that when I tell him he can't go to someone, I mean it, then he's on long line. But I think as he gets older, (and beyond teenage stage :005:, which he has now entered) then he probably will go off lead, I feel confident of that.
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Well that's an improvement on yesterday, when you said he would be on a longline forever. He is a good dog, Laura, and far better behaved, from what you say than my Bailey was at that age. I am 99% confident that if you had called him, when he went over to the people he would have come back, especially if you had something he liked, like a ball, really special treat etc.
I am not sure anybody can be 100% confident in their dogs recall. It's something that most of us have to work on everyday, just to get it acceptable, let alone perfect, but the joy, you and Ollie will get from running totally free will offset any anxiety you have, I promise you ;)
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I am not sure anybody can be 100% confident in their dogs recall. It's something that most of us have to work on everyday, just to get it acceptable, let alone perfect, but the joy, you and Ollie will get from running totally free will offset any anxiety you have, I promise you ;)
I agree completely.
Billys recall is good but it's not perfect. I don't think there is such a think as 100%, dogs will be dogs at the end of the day.
Billy played "chase" ( his favourite game!) with a dalmation this morning, it's soooo lovely to see him running free and having fun :D If I ever think he's heading towards something I'm not comfortable with I give him a really excitable " Bbiillllyyyyy"" and probably 95% of the time he comes back to me.
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Hi Laura,
Was thinking about you and Ollie today whilst walking Chloe in the forest. I'd walked her down there on the halti, and let her off within minutes of being in the forest. I timed her for running 10m (the length of your long line)...it took her about 5 seconds! Had she been on a long line (with me holding it) I'd probably have been dragged off my feet by the time she got to the end of it, such was the speed she was running at. If she had been loose with a long line trailing, I would never have been able to keep up with her to grab hold of it. I know our circumstances are different, and its completely different dogs we're talking about (Chlole is mega fast!) but it made me realise that there is no way a dog can run completely free if on a long line. If you've never allowed Ollie to run free, you just don't know what his capabilities for having fun are....or for his ability to learn a good recall. I don't want to sound harsh, or lecturing, but I'm convinced this is about you learning to trust him. As others have said, let him off, recall him, then put him back on the lead for a few minutes, then do it again, building up gradually. You WILL learn to trust him, I promise you!
Good luck, I know you'll get there...its just another hurdle you have to get over...and just think how many you've overcome so far!
Sue
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But I don't hold it. Have you read my post from today, he was mostly 20-40m from me nearly all the time? How could I be holding the long line if I'm that far away?
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Sorry Laura, yes I did read your post, perhaps I didn't fully clock that Ollie had been allowed so much freedom. Good on ya! Now all you have to do is take the long line off....if he goes that far away anyway, just dispense with it! Anyway, its all so much better than yesterday...and each day will get better and better :luv: You put a vid on here a while ago, showing his recall in the garden..., he obviously knows whats expected of him, its just a matter of building it up :luv:
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Just adding my bit. I use a long line to test foster dogs recall and to work on my own dogs if its slacked off and yes they have some freedom with it (I use a 30ft line) but its nothing compared to proper free running. I'd say they go about 30% slower with it than without and tends to annoy them by getting in between their legs. Tbh if a dog decides to ignore you and run off a 10m long line isnt going to help you much anyway!
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Maybe you should just tie a 10 metre rope around your own neck and try running through a park or some woods and see if it feels any different :huh: :shades:
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the dog still feels the long line and drag and knows it's attached even when you're not holding it.
if he was being so good, why didn't you take the long lead off for a few mins?
Yes you are being very controlling and TBH I don't think that's a good basis for working WITH your dog...
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Why is it so important? So what if he never goes completely off-lead? He's getting exercise, exhibits natural behaviours, enjoys himself and has great fun. Why is everyone criticising me for giving him that?
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Maybe you should just tie a 10 metre rope around your own neck and try running through a park or some woods and see if it feels any different :huh: :shades:
Just try it and see if you can still honestly say you are giving him freedom :shades:
I am bowing out of this now as you are clearly not prepared to listen and this thread is just going in circles. >:(
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Laura, some people are criticising you...I can see that...but most of us are really trying to help you understand that Ollie will not reach his full potential if you don't let him be totally free! All the reasons and explanations have been outlined in everyone's posts. Its up to you now. We've all told you what the difference is. I have serious concerns about the way some people have spoken to you...if I had been spoken to like that, I would have probably left the forum. But....I do believe most people are just trying to help you.
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What does it matter if it "feels different"? He doesn't know, so he just puts up with what he's given and gets the best out of it, which is a lot of happiness at being able to run and explore.
ETA: Yes, I know, and thanks for the help, but I've made up my mind.
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OK time for the padlock I'm afraid - the thread is just going round in ever-decreasing circles with the same points being made over and over again.