HELP! - Terrorised by 9 week old Pup!!

[Joules]

  I prefer to ignore; not correct, unwanted behaviour 

My sister went through a phase of doing this with her children - it was a flipping nightmare and we used to dread them coming to stay.    She soon realised this did not work and gave them clearer boundaries about what was acceptable behaviour.  From what I have observed, children are happier and better behaved when they know what is acceptable and what is not - it seems to me that dogs are the same??  No one is talking about physical punishment but surely if your dog is doing something that is not acceptable you do not just ignore it until it stops, you stop it doing it.   

[Densil]

  I prefer to ignore; not correct, unwanted behaviour 

My sister went through a phase of doing this with her children - it was a flipping nightmare and we used to dread them coming to stay.    She soon realised this did not work and gave them clearer boundaries about what was acceptable behaviour.  From what I have observed, children are happier and better behaved when they know what is acceptable and what is not - it seems to me that dogs are the same??  No one is talking about physical punishment but surely if your dog is doing something that is not acceptable you do not just ignore it until it stops, you stop it doing it.   

Well put Joules, a great analogy

[Colin]

  I prefer to ignore; not correct, unwanted behaviour 

My sister went through a phase of doing this with her children - it was a flipping nightmare and we used to dread them coming to stay.    She soon realised this did not work and gave them clearer boundaries about what was acceptable behaviour.  From what I have observed, children are happier and better behaved when they know what is acceptable and what is not - it seems to me that dogs are the same??  No one is talking about physical punishment but surely if your dog is doing something that is not acceptable you do not just ignore it until it stops, you stop it doing it.   

Well put Joules, a great analogy

But is it ? Dogs and humans are two completely different species with completely different sets of behaviour patterns that are natural to them - why would we "train" them in the same way ? I agree that there may be some parallells, but even then I doubt anyone would advocate staring out a baby to the point of submission to change it's behaviour - and let's face it, a 9 week old puppy is little more than a baby.

[Joules]

But is it ? Dogs and humans are two completely different species with completely different sets of behaviour patterns that are natural to them - why would we "train" them in the same way ? I agree that there may be some parallells but even then, I doubt anyone would advocate staring out a baby to the point of submission to change it's behaviour - and let's face it, a 9 week old puppy is little more than a baby.

Obviously, they are different species but there are many similarities.  I don't think staring at a baby would have any effect as eye contact in that situation is unlikely to be seen as confrontational.  But what I am really talking about is setting boundaries and I think that applies equally to children and dogs!!  And no I would not potty train a child by taking them out into the garden to do a wee 

[Densil]

Colin, you are right.  Dogs and humans are different species.  However, when a dog joins your family you expect the dog to adopt certain values which it wouldnt adopt in the wild.  They have to adapt, just as you would adapt if your went to live in a different social society.   

[Colin]

But is it ? Dogs and humans are two completely different species with completely different sets of behaviour patterns that are natural to them - why would we "train" them in the same way ? I agree that there may be some parallells but even then, I doubt anyone would advocate staring out a baby to the point of submission to change it's behaviour - and let's face it, a 9 week old puppy is little more than a baby.

Obviously, they are different species but there are many similarities.  I don't think staring at a baby would have any effect as eye contact in that situation is unlikely to be seen as confrontational. 

That's the point where I disagree with the advice Densil has given ( although it seems to have worked for him ) - I just don't think confrontation is necessary to train a puppy, results can be achieved by kinder, less intimidatory methods.

Not that we will all ever agree on methods - we all have our own personal way of doing things, depending on what has worked for us and the books we've read and advice we've received from trainers. I'm just stating how I feel.

[Densil]

  I prefer to ignore; not correct, unwanted behaviour 

My sister went through a phase of doing this with her children - it was a flipping nightmare and we used to dread them coming to stay.    She soon realised this did not work and gave them clearer boundaries about what was acceptable behaviour.  From what I have observed, children are happier and better behaved when they know what is acceptable and what is not - it seems to me that dogs are the same??  No one is talking about physical punishment but surely if your dog is doing something that is not acceptable you do not just ignore it until it stops, you stop it doing it.   

Well put Joules, a great analogy

But is it ? Dogs and humans are two completely different species with completely different sets of behaviour patterns that are natural to them - why would we "train" them in the same way ? I agree that there may be some parallells, but even then I doubt anyone would advocate staring out a baby to the point of submission to change it's behaviour - and let's face it, a 9 week old puppy is little more than a baby.

Strange you should say that.  I have a 9yr old daughter.  I have tought her that being kind and respectful to people is good.  I have rewarded her with love and affection for good behaviour.  I have never raised my hand to her or shouted at her.  She knows when she has done wrong by reading my face.  A look ifrom me is enough.  This is not intimidation as it cannot be claimed that she is fearful of me.  She loves me and wants to please me.  I believe that the same applies to my dogs

[Colin]

Strange you should say that.  I have a 9yr old daughter.  I have tought her that being kind and respectful to people is good.  I have rewarded her with love and affection for good behaviour.  I have never raised my hand to her or shouted at her.  She knows when she has done wrong by reading my face.  A look ifrom me is enough.  This is not intimidation as it cannot be claimed that she is fearful of me.  She loves me and wants to please me.  I believe that the same applies to my dogs

Your daughter sounds like a credit to you - but I still don't think you can compare how you deal with a 9 year old child to how you should deal with a 9 week old puppy. With humans you can explain the connection between consequence and behaviour, even if they are separated in time. eg Your tell your daughter that unless she does her homework, she can't watch television later. Try tellling a dog that unless it stops biting, it won't get taken to the park later and you won't have much luck. 

Dogs have different priorites to kids - they are completely amoral and respond to conditioning rather than persuasion or promised future bribery. The secret is to condition automatic repsonses by consistently treating them in the same way - you can do this by reward or denial of what they crave - dogs ( and cockers in particular ) crave attention from their owners - this is why you can condition them by ignoring bad behaviour. If the ultimate aim of your dog is to get your attention, then by not giving it when it elicits undesirable behaviour, then it will hopefully abandon that behaviour. It takes time and consistency for the message to get through though.

Going back to the staring out - I maintain that this is intimidatory in a dog's eyes. In the canine world they use different body language than us to convey how they feel - direct eye contact of that nature is seen as threatening.

[Densil]

OK so its time to give in.  I will ignor the unwanted behaviour of the puppy pooping and weeing in the house.  I will ignor the unwanted behaviour of the dog chewing chair legs.  I will ignor the unwanted behaviour of the dog trying to climb onto the sofa.  I will ignor the unwanted behaviour of the puppy eating its own poo. I will ignor the unwanted behvaiour of the puppy biting the hands and face of humans.  After a while the puppy will get bored with pooping in the house and realise all by himself that he should go outside to poop and wee.  He wont want to chew furniture and realise all by himself that only his toys are allowed to be chewed.  He will learn alll by himself which parts of the house are no go areas.  Then when he is older it will be alright when he disfigures the face of a young child, because, bless him, he didnt know he shouldnt bite humans.

[Joules]

Not that we will all ever agree on methods - we all have our own personal way of doing things, depending on what has worked for us and the books we've read and advice we've received from trainers. I'm just stating how I feel.

Well said, there are many different methods and we will never all agree.  What was fashionable 10 years ago is now looked down on and what we swear by now will probably be called useless in another 10 years.  I believe that as long as the methods are kind to the dog and have the right intent, we all have to find what works for us and our own dogs.  I think the purpose of this forum is to promote discussion and debate about these things rather than dictate one particular way of doing things 

[Densil]

Oh and Colin

If he survives into adulthood without being PTS I might one day take him out in public.  I will ignor the unwanted behaviour of him pulling on the lead, I will ignor the unwanted behaviour of him barking at everything that moves.  I will ignor te unwanted behaviour of him chaseing passing cars in the hope that he won't cause a fatal accident.  I might be bold enough to let off his lead and ignor the unwanted behaviour of him jumping on strangers and I will turn a blinfd eye when he takes a bite out of the face off a passing toddler.  I will l ignor the legislation that dictates that a dog must be under propper control when in a field with livestock and when he displays the unwanted behaviour of chaseing that livestock...or throwing a bite or two in there while he is at it, then I will ingor that behaviour too.  (....enter the farmer with the shotgun)

Unwanted behaviour cannot be ignored.  

[hamfam]

So how did you go about training your dog to sit Densil, By staring it out while it was standing or rewarding it when it did as you wished?

When your dog decides to 'bite the face off' a passing child, just what will prevent it doing that? - presumably it hasn't tried in the past and been 'stared out'

Most of the behaviour you elude to is that displayed by an animal with little or no socialisation, not one whos bad behaviour has been ignored and who's good behaviour has been rewarded.

I am a firm beleiver that animals (and humans) behaviour is dictated by their environment, either will react unpredictably when in a hostile and threatning environment and both will relax when comfortable with their surroundings. Both will respond better to positive encouragement than negative beration - try telling a teenager they are grounded and see the response you get, alternately try telling them how good they are normally and ask them what went wrong? - i guarantee there will be no paddy because the conflict has been removed from the disscussion.

[jann]

Not that we will all ever agree on methods - we all have our own personal way of doing things, depending on what has worked for us and the books we've read and advice we've received from trainers. I'm just stating how I feel.

Well said, there are many different methods and we will never all agree.  What was fashionable 10 years ago is now looked down on and what we swear by now will probably be called useless in another 10 years.  I believe that as long as the methods are kind to the dog and have the right intent, we all have to find what works for us and our own dogs.  I think the purpose of this forum is to promote discussion and debate about these things rather than dictate one particular way of doing things 

I think Joules has summed up this debate very well. It is never as simple as the text books would have us believe, be it child or dog rearing!  Each dog or child is an individual and should be treated as such.
I would like to add also that just because a method is CURRENTLY believed to be the RIGHT way.it does not necessarily mean that PREVIOUS thinking was wrong! (This is how I feel)

[Densil]

Hamfam, you are missing the point.  You are making a judgment without being in possession of all the informaton.  Read the thread again, and my other thread on development and perhaps you may begin to understand.  Some people on here are insisiting that we Ignor unwanted behaviour.  I have said that we cannot ignor unwanted behaviour.  I am NOT saying that unwanted behaviour should be punished.   I am saying that desired behaviour should be rewarded and encouraged and when unwanted behaviour is displayed the puppy needs to be encouraged to do something different, which is desireable, for which it is rewarded.  In the space of 6 days Dibbley has learned to come, sit, stand, lay down, stay (for a short period) paw, and fetch and drop.  All achieved using clicker and reward, (either food treat or verbal recognition)  He is learning not to poop or wee in the house.  at the start, when he was about to pop or wee, he was picked up (not roughly) and taken outside where upon doing his business he was given verbal reward.  This is what I mean by NOT ignoring unwanted behaviour.  On the first day, when Dibbley was trying to bite peoples faces he was distracted from that behaviour, and rewarded when the unwanted behaviour stopped.  To ignor that behaviour would be downright irresponsible.  Dibbley is learning desired behaviour through recognition and reward, not through intimidation as you imply, and I resent the implication.

[Cob-Web]

I never insisted anyone ignore unwanted behaviour - merely stated it was my prefered method of training 

Yes, I did ignore puddles/poops in the house; alongside positive reinforcement when he got it right - and he was clean in the house within a few weeks
The principle I firmly believe in is that behaviour that is not reinforced will be eliminated in favour of behaviour that is reinforced 

Amazingly, there is evidence that *punishment* or *correction* can act as a reinforcer for dogs - so a dog that is pushed off each time it jumps up is more likely to carry on with the unwanted behaviour than a dog that is ignored (no eye contact or verbal interaction) and rewarded when all four paws are on the floor 

In situations where a dogs natural behaviour is likely to put it at risk or causes damage, such as chasing livestock or chewing furniture, I would avoid putting the dog in the position where it could display the behaviour in the first place, rather than correct it once it had *failed*.  Much of this behaviour is self rewarding anyway - so it's better that a dog isn't given the opportunity, surely ?

I have a theory that the reason that the number of dogs in rescue centres is ever increasing is due, in part, to the increase in the tendancy of people to anthropomophise and have unrealisitic expectations of their puppies and dogs, which  is inevitably going to lead to failure on the part of the dog  Each time the behaviour of a dog is compared to that of a child, it is likely that someone will end up disappointed 

Densil - I once believed as you do; as I said, one of the biggest influences in my change of opinon was reading Jean Donaldson's book The Culture Clash - perhaps once you've read it you may understand why