HELP! - Terrorised by 9 week old Pup!!

[jann]

quote ''In situations where a dogs natural behaviour is likely to put it at risk or causes damage, such as chasing livestock or chewing furniture, I would avoid putting the dog in the position where it could display the behaviour in the first place, rather than correct it once it had *failed*.   Much of this behaviour is self rewarding anyway - so it's better that a dog isn't given the opportunity, surely ? '' quote

How do you avoid putting the dog in the position of not chewing furniture?  by putting it in a cage??

[Densil]

Strange you should say that.  I have a 9yr old daughter.  I have tought her that being kind and respectful to people is good.  I have rewarded her with love and affection for good behaviour.  I have never raised my hand to her or shouted at her.  She knows when she has done wrong by reading my face.  A look ifrom me is enough.  This is not intimidation as it cannot be claimed that she is fearful of me.  She loves me and wants to please me.  I believe that the same applies to my dogs

Your daughter sounds like a credit to you - but I still don't think you can compare how you deal with a 9 year old child to how you should deal with a 9 week old puppy. With humans you can explain the connection between consequence and behaviour, even if they are separated in time. eg Your tell your daughter that unless she does her homework, she can't watch television later. Try tellling a dog that unless it stops biting, it won't get taken to the park later and you won't have much luck. 

Colin, I didn’t buy my daughter at the age of 9.  She has been part of our family since birth and I attribute her behaviour to 9 years of learning and experiences.   It surprises me that you are advocating threatening to remove something to achieve desired behaviour.  (Do your homework or there's no TV)  I have never threatened her with the removal of privileges, or bribed her to perform well.  When she does something desirable she knows that I am happy and is told how good she is and how I am proud of her.  She performs well as she knows that she will feel valued and appreciated.  This is one of the principle motivators to improve performance.  Occasionally when she has done something of particular note I will treat her to something special, but she doesn’t perform well to get that reward, she does so as she knows that this is desirable behaviour, and it will please her parents. 

Take the time to read Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs, which has been fine-tuned by Clayton Alderfer ERG theory.   

[Jan/Billy]

I have corrected unwanted behaviour, ignored unwanted behaviour and rewarded good behaviour so I am on both sides here 

If I came home and billy jumped up at me I'd completely ignore him.

If he barked I completely ignored him.

BUT

If I caught Billy about to pee in the house I'd try and correct it by quickly wipping him up and put him outside to toilet and then praise him like mad when he then peed outside

If I caught him chewing the table legs then I'd interupt it

If I caught him chewing the carpet then I'd interupt it

I was unable to watch Billy 24/7 so unfortunately unless I kept him in his cage all of the time there were times when he did do naughty unwanted things such as chewing carpets etc. I never hit him or hurt him but i did stop it.

However one thing I feel I must say is that I would never ever ever now stare Billy in the eyes. He is a dog who sees this as a really huge thing and this is the bigest possible threat signal to Billy. He hates it and would almost definately growl.I would not recommend anyone stare a dog in the eyes.

[hamfam]

I have said that we cannot ignor  unwanted behaviour.  I am NOT saying that unwanted behaviour should be punished.   I am saying that desired behaviour should be rewarded and encouraged and when unwanted behaviour is displayed the puppy needs to be encouraged to do something different, which is desireable, for which it is rewarded.

So what are you doing then if you are not ignoring the bad behaviour, you are neither rewarding it or disciplining it?

Dibbley is learning desired behaviour through recognition and reward, not through intimidation as you imply, and I resent the implication.

I happen to think that

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT BIT.....Hold firmly and keep looking her in the eye until she looks away submissively.

is intimidation and if you read this thread you will see i am not alone in my perception.

Of course one should prevent unwanted behaviour but it should be done with disstraction and reward for correct behaviour

[PennyB]

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT BIT.....Hold firmly and keep looking her in the eye until she looks away submissively.

is intimidation and if you read this thread you will see i am not alone in my perception.

Of course one should prevent unwanted behaviour but it should be done with disstraction and reward for correct behaviour

Especially if some reading this use this method beyond puppyhood

[Colin]

Densil, I'm not trying to suggest that you deliberately set out to intimidate your puppy - I was only trying to explain the reasons why I think a puppy would interpret such actions as staring it down down to the point of submission, as intimidatory.
 
Apart from that I agree with a lot of what you say. Dogs need guidance to behave in the manner that we want them to - and by using positive reinforcement we can condition them to behave in this way in future, by rewarding them whenever they perform in a way that we've taught them .

 Ignoring bad behaviour is often necessary too - unless you catch a puppy in the act when it chews a chair leg or wees on the carpet, there is no point in taking any action as the pup will not be able to relate your action back to it's previous misdemeanour - you can't use verbal reasoning, or after-the-fact explanations with a dog the way you would with a child - with a dog, action has to be instant. Another example of how ignoring undesirable behaviour can be effective would be during playing - you are rolling a ball back and forwards with the pup and eventually it gets over-excited and starts nipping you or chewing your clothing - stop the game immediately, walk away and ignore the pup. The pup might not understand why the game ended the first time you do this - but after this happening a few times it should start to make the connection and learn to cut out the nipping to prolong the game. Another example of ignoring would be mealtimes - an hour before they are due to be fed my dogs used to start looking at me and whimpering, I ignored them and they soon gave up - any other action would have been playing into their hands, by giving them my attention. There are many examples of how ignoring bad behaviour can be an effective tool.

I have corrected unwanted behaviour, ignored unwanted behaviour and rewarded good behaviour

Me too Jan. 

[Cob-Web]

quote ''In situations where a dogs natural behaviour is likely to put it at risk or causes damage, such as chasing livestock or chewing furniture, I would avoid putting the dog in the position where it could display the behaviour in the first place, rather than correct it once it had *failed*.   Much of this behaviour is self rewarding anyway - so it's better that a dog isn't given the opportunity, surely ? '' quote

How do you avoid putting the dog in the position of not chewing furniture?  by putting it in a cage??

If you mean a puppy playpen, then yes - when unsupervised, I used a pen to give him the best possible chance of success 

[jann]

  I'm really not trying to be 'funny' IWLass, just interested,  What do you do if a dog is not in the pen but is being supervised and it starts to chew the furniture in front of you ? Do you ignore it, distract it or do you reprimand it? Jann

[Joules]

I have corrected unwanted behaviour, ignored unwanted behaviour and rewarded good behaviour so I am on both sides here 

If I came home and billy jumped up at me I'd completely ignore him.

If he barked I completely ignored him.

BUT

If I caught Billy about to pee in the house I'd try and correct it by quickly wipping him up and put him outside to toilet and then praise him like mad when he then peed outside

If I caught him chewing the table legs then I'd interupt it

If I caught him chewing the carpet then I'd interupt it

I was unable to watch Billy 24/7 so unfortunately unless I kept him in his cage all of the time there were times when he did do naughty unwanted things such as chewing carpets etc. I never hit him or hurt him but i did stop it.

Exactly!

[Cayley]

Staring out a puppy didn't work for us, we were told to do it by someone so we did and Lottie did everything we asked after then out of fear. If a puppy nips you, yelp then walk away, they'll get the message eventually, you aren't ignoring it completely you are letting them know that their teeth in contact with your skin isn't acceptable. When they are chewing something you don't want them to, a quick 'no' then give them something they can chew  .    

[Cob-Web]

  I'm really not trying to be 'funny' IWLass, just interested,  What do you do if a dog is not in the pen but is being supervised and it starts to chew the furniture in front of you ? Do you ignore it, distract it or do you reprimand it? Jann

I would definately not reprimand - it is a perfectly natural behaviour 

With Molo, I managed to distract him before he got to the point of chewing (or other self-rewarding, unwanted behaviour), so if he began to sniff a chair leg, or paw at the lino - I would squeek a toy or offer a treat before he actually chewed    He probably has no idea that chair legs are great to chew because he has never experienced it  I found that the yelping/growling method of responding to playbiting didn't work - ignoring it and walking away was more effective

I can only think of one occasion when he damaged something as a pup - he got hold of a tear in the lino and began to chew it/pull it up - in response, I walked into the garden and he soon followed to find out where I was. We then made sure that all edges of lino were inaccessible (under rugs or his pen) so he could not repeat the behaviour

[Jan/Billy]

With Molo, I managed to distract him before he got to the point of chewing (or other self-rewarding, unwanted behaviour), so if he began to sniff a chair leg, or paw at the lino - I would squeek a toy or offer a treat before he actually chewed   

Unfortunately for me I couldn't manage this, by the sounds of this then you must have spent an awful awful lot of time with Molo on a one to one basis? That's not meant to sound funny but I am genuinely shocked. There were times when I had to leave Billy alone ie to answer the front door , phone or nip to the loo and he'd get into mischief in seconds.  I honestly don't think i'd ever be able to manage to prevent every single bit of mischief. I found billy to be hard work and physically draining - to have had to rear him the way you have would have finished me off I think!!

[Jan/Billy]

I can only think of one occasion when he damaged something as a pup - he got hold of a tear in the lino and began to chew it/pull it up - in response, I walked into the garden and he soon followed to find out where I was.

Again not meaning to sound funny but maybe Molo was an easier than average pup? I know for a fact when Billy was a pup had I been in this situation he wouldn't always have followed me outside if he didn't want to not matter what toy i had with me .

[Cathy]

I can only think of one occasion when he damaged something as a pup - he got hold of a tear in the lino and began to chew it/pull it up - in response, I walked into the garden and he soon followed to find out where I was.

Again not meaning to sound funny but maybe Molo was an easier than average pup? I know for a fact when Billy was a pup had I been in this situation he wouldn't always have followed me outside if he didn't want to not matter what toy i had with me .

Jazz was the same. I tried to distract her, with toys and funny noises - But it didn't work.

I restorted to saying a very firm  no, and removing her over and over again. I would follow it up with playing for her.

I do stare at Jazz, and it does an adverse affect. If I say NO !!! and start right at her, she barks jumps on my lap and starts to kiss me.

I am just lucky to have a soppy dog.  I wouldn't have been able to do that with other dogs in the past.

[CraftySam]

I have corrected unwanted behaviour, ignored unwanted behaviour and rewarded good behaviour so I am on both sides here 

If I came home and billy jumped up at me I'd completely ignore him.

If he barked I completely ignored him.

BUT

If I caught Billy about to pee in the house I'd try and correct it by quickly wipping him up and put him outside to toilet and then praise him like mad when he then peed outside

If I caught him chewing the table legs then I'd interupt it

If I caught him chewing the carpet then I'd interupt it

I was unable to watch Billy 24/7 so unfortunately unless I kept him in his cage all of the time there were times when he did do naughty unwanted things such as chewing carpets etc. I never hit him or hurt him but i did stop it.

Jan, I totally agree with you. There are situations when ignoring behaviour works and when correcting behaviour is necessary.

  I'm really not trying to be 'funny' IWLass, just interested,  What do you do if a dog is not in the pen but is being supervised and it starts to chew the furniture in front of you ? Do you ignore it, distract it or do you reprimand it? Jann

I would definately not reprimand - it is a perfectly natural behaviour 

With Molo, I managed to distract him before he got to the point of chewing (or other self-rewarding, unwanted behaviour), so if he began to sniff a chair leg, or paw at the lino - I would squeek a toy or offer a treat before he actually chewed    He probably has no idea that chair legs are great to chew because he has never experienced it  I found that the yelping/growling method of responding to playbiting didn't work - ignoring it and walking away was more effective

I can only think of one occasion when he damaged something as a pup - he got hold of a tear in the lino and began to chew it/pull it up - in response, I walked into the garden and he soon followed to find out where I was. We then made sure that all edges of lino were inaccessible (under rugs or his pen) so he could not repeat the behaviour

The only problem is that what happens if you don't see Molo about to start doing something and don't distract him every single time he's about to do something unwanted?

As I've said above there are times when ignoring certain behaviours is the best way of dealing with them but there are times when correcting certain behavious is necessary. Here are a couple of examples:

IgnoriBehaviourng

a) A dog jumps up at you to get some attention you ignore the dog, don't speak, don't give it eye contact. The dog learns that this behaviour hasn't got him what he wanted, attention.

b) A dog jumps up and you push him down, speak to him he's got attention so it got him what he wanted.

Correcting Behaviour

a) A pup goes to chew a table leg and you notice just as he's about to wrap his mouth around the leg and you distract him with a squeaky toy which makes pup come away from the table to you to investigate the squeaky toy, what has the pup learnt from that? 

b) If a pup is going to chew the table leg and you notice just as he's about to wrap his mouth around the leg, you say "ah ah, No" then give the pup one of it's toys and praise him as he puts it in his mouth, the dog has learnt that the table leg shouldn't be in his mouth and his toy should.

Distraction technique can only work if you see the behaviour about to happen, and you will have to distract him on every single occassion that he's about to do something he shouldn't.  The pup hasn't actually learnt that what you are distracting him from isn't the right thing to do, so will keep going to do it and there will be a time that you have taken your eye of the pup for a minute and he does chew the table leg, because you don't step in with a distraction.

Correcting the behaviour only needs to happen a two or three times and the dog learns that chewing the table leg isn't the right thing to do. You can leave the room and return a few minutes later and the table leg is in tact.  Correcting behaviour does not mean being confrontational, being cruel etc. I correct unwanted behaviour with "ah ah No" and then show/give the pup something that he should be doing.

If I found that something had happened, say chewed rug or puddle on the floor, and I didn't see him doing it then I would ignore it. Taking the pup to the chewed rug or puddle and saying don't do it again is futile, the pup won't have a clue what you're talking about. Correction can only be done if the pup is doing it at the time.

There is a time and place for both ignoring and correction.