HELP! - Terrorised by 9 week old Pup!!

[Cob-Web]

The point I want to make here is that by putting him on leash you are clearly aware of the potential for “unwanted behaviour”.  In this instance you have chosen not to ignore that behaviour, but to do something to prevent it happening.

Exactly - thats been my point all along (as quoted below) - I would rather prevent the behaviour in the first place, than allow my dog to *fail* and have to correct/ignore/distract him !!

In situations where a dogs natural behaviour is likely to put it at risk or causes damage, such as chasing livestock or chewing furniture, I would avoid putting the dog in the position where it could display the behaviour in the first place, rather than correct it once it had *failed*.  Much of this behaviour is self rewarding anyway - so it's better that a dog isn't given the opportunity, surely ?

It seems we DO agree - except on the staring technique you use, and I agree with everyone else who has urged caution with the use of this method due to the risk it poses 

[Densil]

Densil - if you allow your dogs to run free in livestock fields, as you are happy with the close control that you have, then good for you - I wouldn't let Molo do it any more than I would leave him off-leash on a busy road - which is something I have seen criticised in many COL threads and is no different, imo 

The point I want to make here is that by putting him on leash you are clearly aware of the potential for “unwanted behaviour”.  In this instance you have chosen not to ignore that behaviour, but to do something to prevent it happening.
 
My dogs in the past have been gradually conditioned to behave in the presence of livestock.  It was absolutely vital that they were obedient and reacted without hesitation to my instruction (oops, requests).  How else could I trust the dogs to go out into the field and bring the livestock to me?

Yes I would trust my dogs to stay at my side while walking through land containing livestock and if I found myself on someone else’s land, which contained sheep, then I would comply with legislation and keep the dog on a leash.  (For what it would be worth as the lead would be hanging loose)

Idle curiosity but can you keep them under the same control if say a rabbit or squirrel crossed your path (the reason why mine are leashed by the side of a road)

PennyB

I have to have absolute faith in my dogs not to be spooked.  When working in the countryside the dogs have to know when it is ok to leave my side.  They live among numerous animals and fowl and I have to have absolute faith in their ability to resist the temptation (and instinct) to chase.  As is the case with most agricultural premises, there are vermin.  They have loved nothing more to be allowed into the feed store to chase (and catch) vermin, but they wait until they get the OK from me to do the necessary.  (I feel I might get a telling off now for allowing this)
I took the dogs into town frequently and when walking in a designated area they are on a leash, but you wouldn’t know, as the leash hangs from my left hand, across the front of my body, to the dog, which walks on my right.  I use my right hand to give gentle direction and reassurance. 
When my Rotty was a pup, I was out one evening teaching him road sense, pedestrian manners, kerb sitting and pedestrian crossings.  Starting at walking, then building up to a gentle jog and teaching him (with whistle. I don’t think clickers were around then) to stay at my side.  A passing Police Officer stopped me and told me that the dog should be on a lead.  He was a little taken aback when I lifted my left arm to show him the lead.  He then commented on how well behaved the dog was and said he was a lovely looking lab.  (Rottys were kind of unusual back then..1983) 

I hope this goes some way to answering your question.

[jann]

a) A pup goes to chew a table leg and you notice just as he's about to wrap his mouth around the leg and you distract him with a squeaky toy which makes pup come away from the table to you to investigate the squeaky toy, what has the pup learnt from that?

b) If a pup is going to chew the table leg and you notice just as he's about to wrap his mouth around the leg, you say "ah ah, No" then give the pup one of it's toys and praise him as he puts it in his mouth, the dog has learnt that the table leg shouldn't be in his mouth and his toy should. 

IMO, method a) is valuable as he has never gained the reward of chewing the table leg and finding out how good it feels; method b) runs the risk of him chewing when you are not there to correct him as he knows it feels good, but knows you will correct him if you are there 

Rachel I am confused by your comments.  

In method a) and b) the dogs are at exactly the same point. Both with their mouths about to be wrapped around the table leg, therefore both run the risk of him chewing the leg, but neither have yet.

In method a) the pup doesn't learn anything, he hasn't learned that a table leg is not for chewing. The pup was distracted at that point in time but will probably head back to the table leg to attempt to chew it later because he doesn't know that he shouldn't do it.  
In method b) the dog is made aware that it shouldn't chew the table leg and is shown what he should be chewing and when he does he is rewarded.

You have two dogs, one who knows he's not to chew the table leg and one who doesn't.  In the long term who runs the greater risk of chewing the table leg?

I have been in a very fortunate position to be able to give my pups the majority of my time. But no one is able to watch their every move when they are out of their crate/pen, we may turn our back for a moment to fill the kettle etc.  In that split second your back is turned they may start to do something they shouldn't, distracting them will yes get them to stop what they're doing, but they don't learn that what they were doing was wrong and that they shouldn't do it again.

With all of my pups, if they've been seen to or about to mouth/chew an item they shouldn't they have been corrected with "ah ah no" and immediately been given one of their toys to chew and praised when they do. This has resulted in them very quickly knowing what is for them to chew and what isn't. Both Sapphi and Max totally ceased to mouth/chew anything other than their toys within a few weeks.  Barney attempted to chew the drawer knobs on my coffee table about three times are they are just at his level. He also attempted to nibble the corner of the harth a few times.  He was corrected and he hasn't attempted to mouth or chew anything he shouldn't for over six weeks.  Thats not to say he won't in the future, I don't want to tempt fate.   B ;)ut I have begun to leave him in the lounge whilst I do nip to the loo etc for a few minutes without any problems.

I personally left mine out of their crates way before they were one like Molo.  Sapphi was six months and Max was 8 months.  I was confident that my training methods had worked and I could trust them and I didn't have any bother from them.

Sam has really summed up my thoughts on this. Surely if a dog is not allowed to 'make a mistake' it is not learning anything at all ( except that everything it does is ok!) how is it ever going to learn that there is a right and a wrong? If it is constantly being steered away from conflict or kept in a pen? I would be very worried if I couldn't trust my dog to be left alone for a short time and behave in an acceptable manner in the house  by the age of around 12 months.

[Densil]

Hazel,  are you following all this?  Bet you wish you'de never asked now 

[Joules]

Hazel,  are you following all this?  Bet you wish you'de never asked now 

I think she has probably lost the will to live! 

[PennyB]

I took the dogs into town frequently and when walking in a designated area they are on a leash, but you wouldn’t know, as the leash hangs from my left hand, across the front of my body, to the dog, which walks on my right.  I use my right hand to give gentle direction and reassurance. 

as mine are

[CraftySam]

You have two dogs, one who knows he's not to chew the table leg and one who doesn't.  In the long term who runs the greater risk of chewing the table leg?

Neither, or both  - you use one method with your dogs, I used another with mine and we achieved the same result If distraction works for you, then great -  but if my prefered method works too, am I wrong to suggest it when someone asks for advice ?? 

Rachel, I think you've got a bit muddled!  Distraction doesn't work for me it works for you!    Correction works for me! 

Of course everyone is freely able to suggest their preferred way of training, and equally everybody is at liberty to challenge other peoples preferred way of training, as you have done in this thread, too and point out possible pitfalls that come from certain methods of training.

I have been trying to discover from you how in the long term using only the distraction and ignoring method holds up.  I just don't understand how the dog ever learns what behaviour is acceptable and what behaviour isn't. 
Ignoring can be very effective when the dog is trying to get your attention, e.g when he's jumping up on you. Using correction and ignoring method can be very effective when addressing play biting for example.
But I'm struggling to understand how distraction and ignoring is successful in the long term without correction, that's all. 

[Cob-Web]

Yes I would trust my dogs to stay at my side while walking through land containing livestock

Densil - I take it from your comments that your dogs primary role is to *work* in addition to being pets?

While I admire the level of control you obviously have over your dogs (in the same way as I admire guide dogs, or police dogs) - I have never claimed to be experienced enough to train my pet dog to such a standard and so would fail a dog in my care if I was as confident as you are that it would never express it's natural instincts  I do not want, nor need, a dog which is trained to the advanced level you describe - and as there are so many failed working dogs in all professions, is it realistic to expect all dogs to achieve that level of control/behaviour?

Surely if a dog is not allowed to 'make a mistake' it is not learning anything at all ( except that everything it does is ok!) how is it ever going to learn that there is a right and a wrong?.................

I would be very worried if I couldn't trust my dog to be left alone for a short time and behave in an acceptable manner in the house  by the age of around 12 months.

I don't think dogs understand "right from wrong" as you describe - they are motivated and driven by consequences - if they know somthing is rewarding, they do it more frequently 


As I said, I did leave him alone without being penned before he was 12 months old..........but it was a gradual process which eventually finished at around a year, at which point I never felt the need to use his pen  I think it would have been very unfair to have withdrawn it overnight rather than gradually - not only would it have increased the risk of him damaging the home, but it may well have caused other problems, such as anxiety due to lack of confidence in the space available to him

[jann]

Surely if a dog is not allowed to 'make a mistake' it is not learning anything at all ( except that everything it does is ok!) how is it ever going to learn that there is a right and a wrong?.................

I would be very worried if I couldn't trust my dog to be left alone for a short time and behave in an acceptable manner in the house  by the age of around 12 months.

I don't think dogs understand "right from wrong" as you describe - they are motivated and driven by consequences - if they know somthing is rewarding, they do it more frequently 


I did word this badly Rachel, what I should have saiid was 'acceptable behaviour to you'  instead  of 'right from wrong'.  Jann

[Jane S]

I think this thread has gone as far as it can now and has long strayed from the OP's original question so I'm now closing it.