puppy biting feet,legs and clothes

[PennyB]

I agree with rachel that using aversives is a no no --- you may get a fast result but you may also set yourself up for problems at a much later date. Slow and steady is the key --- and the pack thing is useless as we are not dogs!

Owning a pup isn't always easy and its sad to see some of these dogs further down the line when they are in rescue and have every negative aspect of training used on them.

[Eceni]

Ian Dunbar has most to say about bite-inhibition, starting with the fact that it's the most important part of a pup's learning - but going on to say that they must be allowed to play-bite, or they'll never learn how to modify their own jaw-strength. The most dangerous dog (as far as he's concerned) is the one which is well-socialised but has poor bite-inhibition - they're the ones that *don't know* how to modify their own jaw-strength because they've never been allowed to try and so when the 3 year old falls over and lands on them, they'll take her face off as a pure reflex, whereas something which has developed instinctive bite-inhibition is going to be able to pull that back in 0.04 of a second.  But they need to learn it. It's not in there instinctively. 

His advice is to go with what has been suggested here in some of the posts, which is to emit a sharp 'ow', high-pitched, like other pups, and then to turn your back, removing yourself from the pup's availability.  Which of course might be easier said than done.  His book has huge, huge detail about this and might be worth reading.

good luck

e
e

[anthony mazzeri]

Fair enough. Have you actually tried this technique yourself? Do you know of anyone who has who now has a hand-shy dog because of it?

So you would then also agree that 'time-outs' should also not be used as they too are a physical restraint in the form of a literal physical barrier (not to mention the solitary confinement psychological punishment for a natural pack animal)?

One observation I feel the need to make. As I mentioned, not a single one of the dozen or so currently popular 'stop your puppy from nipping' techniques worked for me at all. What I have discovered after a year of owning a Cocker Spaniel pup is that advice from dominant personality people (which you have to be to be a successful dog trainer i think) in regards to training dogs is absolutely useless for people who are non-dominant personalities. For instance, I am an easy-going, laid back and quiet person and I simply can not and do not possess the personality of a Victoria Stilwell. Techniques that work easily for her are 100% failure-prone in other people who don't walk into a room like they own it and never will be able to.

To use Victoria as an example, she would say 'NO!' and turn her back and the puppy magically behaves! Yet, still there are hundreds and hundreds of pleas for help on dog forums worldwide every day like this one (believe me, I've read most of them) from people who do exactly the same thing and lo and behold, let's read the first post of this thread again:

Having tried to ignore till he stops then praise, as in books, is not working because it is very painful and can't take getting our feet chewed to bits or have clothes ruined.  Also tried saying no very firmly and this sometimes works, sometimes not.

[tiamaria]

I must admit the loud yelp or ouch really didnt work just seemed to make things worse, like he translated it into 'do it again only harder'! 

[anthony mazzeri]

His advice is to go with what has been suggested here in some of the posts, which is to emit a sharp 'ow', high-pitched, like other pups, and then to turn your back, removing yourself from the pup's availability.  Which of course might be easier said than done.  His book has huge, huge detail about this and might be worth reading.

I should mention I am in Australia so have never seen or heard Doctor Dunbar speak, but I do have his books, so I must assume that this bit of advice from him must be successful because he has a female voice box. I myself lack the ability to emit a 'high pitched' yelp at puppy frequencies so this advice was absolutely useless to me. 100% failure.

I'll return to my previous comment about the theory I have developed. Dunbar is experienced with dogs. This would come through in his personality and the dog/puppy would read it easily. What works easily for him would not work so easily for a first-ever puppy owner of quiet and timid disposition or nervous about whether they are doing the right thing. He could emit a yelp or just recite the 10 x table backwards. It's his confidence and personality, not the specific technique, which is why I believe these things work for them and not others.

[PennyB]

What I have discovered after a year of owning a Cocker Spaniel pup is that advice from dominant personality people (which you have to be to be a successful dog trainer i think) in regards to training dogs is absolutely useless for people who are non-dominant personalities. For instance, I am an easy-going, laid back and quiet person and I simply can not and do not possess the personality of a Victoria Stilwell. Techniques that work easily for her are 100% failure-prone in other people who don't walk into a room like they own it and never will be able to.

Patience and persistence and being calm and confident help --- watching tv its obvious it will happen in 2 min as the show is only 30 min long. I went to training classes and would practise for 15-20 min more or less every day and lo and behold eventually the message got through. I also make training fun for my dogs so they listen to me. Training a dog does not happen overnight.

Half the battle is actually training the owner and yes I have seen many handshy dogs through bad training practice

[Cob-Web]

So you would then also agree that 'time-outs' should also not be used as they too are a physical restraint in the form of a literal physical barrier (not to mention the solitary confinement psychological punishment for a natural pack animal)?

No, not at all - I think time outs are a valuable training technique, when they are not used as punishment 

I would not move my puppy in order to implement a time out; I would achieve it by removing myself from the situation; the puppy experiences nothing unpleasant as a result (hence, no aversive it needs to avoid)  but begins to learn cause and effect - if I bite a person, they walk away......

What I have discovered after a year of owning a Cocker Spaniel pup is that advice from dominant personality people (which you have to be to be a successful dog trainer i think) in regards to training dogs is absolutely useless for people who are non-dominant personalities. For instance, I am an easy-going, laid back and quiet person and I simply can not and do not possess the personality of a Victoria Stilwell. Techniques that work easily for her are 100% failure-prone in other people who don't walk into a room like they own it and never will be able to.

I agree with you; I have met a lot of people who are unable to modify their behaviour sufficiently to successfully train a dog.   In order to apply positive training methods, the trainer themselves has to be positive and patient. If it is not possible for someone to overcome their inhibitions in order to present this persona, then they are unlikely to succeed using these methods.  Of course, if they use other, less positive methods, they run the risk of accidentally training their dog to become nervous and/or aggressive. 
 
In an ideal world, people would find out what is expected of them before they get a dog, and are committed enough to take on the persona required to provide their dog with what it needs.  They make fool of themselves by playing hide and seek, run madly away from the dog calling their name, and practice their tone of voice until they find the one that their dog responds to.  Sadly, there are too many dogs who aren't given this, and many end up in rescue or worse. 

One of the most unassuming, introverted people I know is a successful agility handler - she was given a gift of a collie puppy by a well-meaning friend - and she realised that if she wanted to keep her dog happy and healthy then she would have to develop a persona that the dog responded to    she has become more confident and outgoing as a result - but that, imo, is a benefit of being a dog owner, isn't it? 

[anthony mazzeri]

Patience and persistence and being calm and confident help --- watching tv its obvious it will happen in 2 min as the show is only 30 min long. I went to training classes and would practise for 15-20 min more or less every day and lo and behold eventually the message got through. I also make training fun for my dogs so they listen to me. Training a dog does not happen overnight.

Half the battle is actually training the owner and yes I have seen many handshy dogs through bad training practice

I agree with you there about training the owner. To change their persona. A nervous shy person must become a calm and confident person. And if they can't?

Have any of the many hand shy dogs you've seen been a result of the specific technique recommended by William E Campbell to justify labelling it as a 'bad training method? Have you actually used this method yourself, or seen others use it to make that sort of judgement? I'd actually like to know as I have never used it myself either as I mentioned, but am planning to on my next puppy.

I posted Campbell's advise on an Australian forum a few days ago where a lady was having great difficulty with a biting Labrador puppy where all the other techniques were not working, yet others were insisting she persist with the techniques that were clearly not working for her, and even making it worse. Her reply within 40 minutes:

Oh my god. This works.

I've never seen that sort of response so quickly from anybody trying any of the other common techniques being advised. And I've never seen it myself either as I've never tried this technique myself. I tried all the other commonly advised techniques, all with the same result as the original poster in this thread:

is not working

[anthony mazzeri]

One of the most unassuming, introverted people I know is a successful agility handler - she was given a gift of a collie puppy by a well-meaning friend - and she realised that if she wanted to keep her dog happy and healthy then she would have to develop a persona that the dog responded to    she has become more confident and outgoing as a result - but that, imo, is a benefit of being a dog owner, isn't it? 

True, it can be. Pets as Therapy, in a way.

[PennyB]

I agree with you there about training the owner. To change their persona. A nervous shy person must become a calm and confident person. And if they can't?

Yes but why use that as an excuse to use aversives true I come across many who can't workl out how to teach their dog recall so they rehome the dog instead (may be that's a blessing for the dog though). There are many other ways to train a dog positively.

[Sarah.H]

Fair enough. Have you actually tried this technique yourself? Do you know of anyone who has who now has a hand-shy dog because of it?

So you would then also agree that 'time-outs' should also not be used as they too are a physical restraint in the form of a literal physical barrier (not to mention the solitary confinement psychological punishment for a natural pack animal)?

One observation I feel the need to make. As I mentioned, not a single one of the dozen or so currently popular 'stop your puppy from nipping' techniques worked for me at all. What I have discovered after a year of owning a Cocker Spaniel pup is that advice from dominant personality people (which you have to be to be a successful dog trainer i think) in regards to training dogs is absolutely useless for people who are non-dominant personalities. For instance, I am an easy-going, laid back and quiet person and I simply can not and do not possess the personality of a Victoria Stilwell. Techniques that work easily for her are 100% failure-prone in other people who don't walk into a room like they own it and never will be able to.

To use Victoria as an example, she would say 'NO!' and turn her back and the puppy magically behaves! Yet, still there are hundreds and hundreds of pleas for help on dog forums worldwide every day like this one (believe me, I've read most of them) from people who do exactly the same thing and lo and behold, let's read the first post of this thread again:

Having tried to ignore till he stops then praise, as in books, is not working because it is very painful and can't take getting our feet chewed to bits or have clothes ruined.  Also tried saying no very firmly and this sometimes works, sometimes not.

But this pup is only 10 weeks old, so thats only a couple of weeks of being 'trained'. And what the puppy is doing is not naughty - its a natural and essential part of learning bite inhibition.

What does the author you refer to suggest if the puppy doesn't stop wriggling and trying to bite, I could imagine trying this with some breeds of dog would only make them more frustrated.

[Top Barks]

Here's my two penneth on this.
First of all I can't really see anything wrong in the William E Campbell method as long as it is done in an air of calm and without malice and does not cause the dog discomfort.
I also think Anthony is right about dogs picking up on experienced dog people, it happens to me all the time. This is not to say that dogs can't react in the same way to inexperienced dog people if they display a calm and laid back demeanour.
I do not think it's anything to do with being dominant though cos I don't buy into all that out dated pack theory rubbish and dogs are not pack animals in the true sence of the word anyway. In my experience dogs do respond to a quiet confident approach .
Sarah (Two little boys) who I did a session with this week saw the benefit of a calm approach as she mentions earlier in the thread.
I was not dominant in this session, I was just a trainer who knew how to solicit the response I required from the puppies.
No need to be domineering just train the bl**dy dog! and if you don't know how then get the knowledge or get someone in to show you.
There are many methods to prevent a pup from biting, but the truth of the matter is that pups will perform this behaviour and it is essential they perform this behaviour to an extent to help develop their bite inhibition. Shouting no! and screaming may work for some, but some dogs will be equally wound up and stressed by such an approach. Stressed pups mouth even more and often when interacting with children as they do not read the pup's signals to back off and the pup reacts by getting giddy and mouthy due to stress. Personally I am a great believer in a puppy pen in the same room as me so both myself and the pup get a break from each other as well as providing many appropriate items for a dog to chew on when in there.
All so doing lots of training with your pup so that they learn you are a provider of good things and someone to be valued helps as well as mentally tiring the pup.
I have never tried the Cambell method myself so can't comment on it's effectiveness but I would need to look at the dog and it's reaction to see if it was aversive or not.
Do you make it a pleasant experience? which would be my take Anthony or is it Cambell's intention to make the dog submit and shut down?
If the latter was the case I would not agree with the technique as pups do need to associate human hands and touch with positive early experiences.
Mark

[Mudmagnets]

I recall many times trying to get my socks on in the morning b4 Smudge decided to take a nip on my toes - ouch indeed, but what i did was have an old sock handy and just rolled it up in a ball and threw it for him, far as possible - the results were hilarious, (and time consuming, but at least I have got all my toes intact. I got ready for work/outing at the last possible moment. Puppies nip, test their mouths etc., it comes with the territory, same as weeing on the floor, yelling at the top of their little voices when you are on the phone!! , and being forever hungry it seems to last forever for a while - Then suddenly you realise (with relief) that they are not doing it anymore (hopefully!!)

[Top Barks]

it seems to last forever for a while - Then suddenly you realise (with relief) that they are not doing it anymore (hopefully!!)

Exactly!

[*AmandaB*]

Just a small point about my 'yelping' approach, you may all like to note that I also added that you can praise the dog for halted behaviour, this avoids the 'hand shy' aspect that you are talking about.

I have never hit, if 'torn'my hand away or had to shout at my girls, the ow said in whatever pitch of voice is usually enough then ;good no bite' in a praising tone has worked for me on three occasions.

It was nothing to do with dominance, pack mentality, punishment or being a female. Just a suggestion if it doesn't work for you then try something else.