puppy biting feet,legs and clothes

[PennyB]

It was nothing to do with dominance, pack mentality, punishment or being a female. Just a suggestion if it doesn't work for you then try something else.

I have also found different pups respond to different things better than another. I use the yelp approach and also the 'bail out the room approach' (ie step back and let them carry on runnign around wildly so I don't get in the way but from a viewpoint where I can see what is going on) when they have the mad half hour as I feel I would set them up to fail when they are in this frame of mind and just manic (often which approach you use can depend on a particular layout of the house etc.).

I also used other approaches when I was trying to fulfill a task like put a harness on a bitey puppy, praising/treating for even a moment of calmness and focusing/attention on me.

[Cob-Web]

I have never tried the Cambell method myself so can't comment on it's effectiveness but I would need to look at the dog and it's reaction to see if it was aversive or not.
Do you make it a pleasant experience? which would be my take Anthony or is it Cambell's intention to make the dog submit and shut down?
If the latter was the case I would not agree with the technique as pups do need to associate human hands and touch with positive early experiences.

Mark, I had assumed that *shut down* and *submission* was the intention, based on Anthony's description, there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that it is a positive experience:

The William E Campbell book I just read says to suspend the pup off the ground a few inches until they calm down and stop. Don't say anything, just lift. One hand under the chest and one under the tummy, so hands and arms clear of their mouths. When they calm down, just gently let them down again. Just keep doing it until they learn that biting gets them a 'suspension'.

Just a small point about my 'yelping' approach, you may all like to note that I also added that you can praise the dog for halted behaviour, this avoids the 'hand shy' aspect that you are talking about.

I have never hit, if 'torn'my hand away or had to shout at my girls, the ow said in whatever pitch of voice is usually enough then ;good no bite' in a praising tone has worked for me on three occasions.

It was nothing to do with dominance, pack mentality, punishment or being a female. Just a suggestion if it doesn't work for you then try something else.

I have seen the yelping technique work just as you describe, Amanda - my understanding is that the yelp is designed to mimic a sound the pup is genetically programmed to respond to; not used as an aversive (such as a rattle bottle might be).

I'm sure that all pups are different, some are probably more sensitive to their siblings pain (and yelps) than others, and some are probably clever enough to work out that we might make a sound like a puppy, but know that we're not 

[Top Barks]

I can't comment on the merits of the technique but re reading the post it does sound like a form of negative reinforcement Rachel.
If it is, then to decrease the behaviour the pup must find the experience aversive and then we get into the whole argument of whether aversives have any place in training and most people on here know my stance on the risks of going down such a route.
I was just not sure if the action of lifting the pup would have a calming effect rather than just shutting the pup down?
In fact I am now intrigued as to what would happen.
As I mentioned a lot of mouthy behaviour happens when the pup is stressed and wound up so chilling the dog down would not be a bad thing.
I tend to use the relaxed down on lead in these situations and give the dogs something else other than me to chew on.
That and the puppy pen are my ways of dealing with this and It works well for me.
With all techniques I try to keep an open mind until I see them or try them myself.
Mark

[ludo]

The relaxed down is a really good tool but we hadn't learned that particular tool when Dax went through this phase - he got more wound up by the yelp approach which made the situation worse - inevitably when he went through this phase he was over excited so to calm him we put him in his crate for a couple of mins and then let him out when calm - I think that this has to be done very carefully without any hint of being cross with the puppy so they don't feel the crate is a place of punishment ... this and tucking pants in socks amongst other things (to avoid temptation) saw us through this phase 

We are using the relaxed down tool at the moment in the house because we have hit the teen phase in these last few weeks - its a shame there isn't much written about the teenage phase - it isn't easy! 

[louis mum]

it seems to last forever for a while - Then suddenly you realise (with relief) that they are not doing it anymore (hopefully!!)

Exactly!

Alfie is now over 7 months old and he still does the mouthing terribly.  It is the one thing that I cannot get on top of. We think we are being consistent in how we manage it, maybe we are not  He does have bite inhibition, well he should he has had 7 months practicing on us 

Saying 'no or 'ouch' loudly seems to rev Alfie up. Moving away and stopping play gets him revved up too.  HELP.

[anthony mazzeri]

I can't comment on the merits of the technique but re reading the post it does sound like a form of negative reinforcement Rachel.
If it is, then to decrease the behaviour the pup must find the experience aversive and then we get into the whole argument of whether aversives have any place in training and most people on here know my stance on the risks of going down such a route.
I was just not sure if the action of lifting the pup would have a calming effect rather than just shutting the pup down?
In fact I am now intrigued as to what would happen.

In Campbell's Behaviour Problems in Dogs [3rd Edition 1999], he does recommend the standard 'freezing as per the dam would do' technique, and then only if that fails move on to the 'distraction with another chewtoy' technique. But for it to actually work, first the owner must establish a strong dominant leadership position with the pup by teaching basic commands such as sit etc which creates subordination in the puppy. Only then comes the correction of mouthing and biting via the 'freeze' technique.

But in his The New Better Behaviour In Dogs [also 1999], he instead describes this holding technique. I'll type his exact words here:

To correct the nippy pup, when he starts to nip or mouth, pick him up by cradling with both hands under the belly and chest and hold him with paws off the floor until he settles down. Then gently put him down, praise him, and pet him. Use this elevation dominance exercise at least five times a day, whether or not the puppy shows signs of aggression or nipping. Don't ever shake or hit the pup, etc etc...

Now, there are words like "gentle" and "praise" there, which are good, but "elevation dominance exercise" does sound like some sort of pseudo Monk of New Skete alpha-roll or something, but he applies the same terminology to standard basic commands establishing a "dominant leadership position" and "subordination" as well, so I have no idea what to make of it. Maybe back in 1999, there was less distinction between the words dominance and leadership and both were interchangeable. I can though see the lifting technique as a 'controller of resources' leadership thing just like time-outs are, as in 'I decide play stops now'. And there is praise and petting the instant the pup calms down, so is it an aversive?

I do believe he is correct though that the standard freeze/ignore technique does not work unless the pup already recognises you as the leader/mum/dad/whatever rather than as just another pup or plaything (hence why the Stilwells and Dunbars can get it to work almost instantly while for the rest of us the puppy just keeps biting). And that it does take much time and extreme patience which many new puppy owners get frustrated with.

[anthony mazzeri]

I recall many times trying to get my socks on in the morning b4 Smudge decided to take a nip on my toes - ouch indeed, but what i did was have an old sock handy and just rolled it up in a ball and threw it for him, far as possible - the results were hilarious, (and time consuming, but at least I have got all my toes intact. I got ready for work/outing at the last possible moment.

I actually threw the socks and shoes I wanted to put on. So now Alfred is bringing them to me to help me dress. I found it best to do it before a walk or car trip so they want you dressed as fast as possible.

[Eceni]

What would interest me about the Campbell technique is whether it produces adult dogs that have adequate bite inhibition. What Dunbar and his colleagues are attempting to do - in whatever way - is to educate a puppy so that it has the 0.04 second  - that is, reflex - response time that means when the 3 year old in the superman cape jumps off the coffee table onto the sleeping malamute, the kid walks away alive because the dog had impeccable bite inhibition.

What Campbell is doing is 'correcting' puppy biting, which, as far as I can tell, is teaching the puppy not to bite, which is an entirely different thing.  Not-biting is NOT, biting-safely where the teeth don't break the skin and the kid has, at most, a line of saliva on her arm.

it's a whole different way of looking at it.  one is protecting your feet for a short period of time.  the other is protecting everyone, including the dog, for its lifetime.

e

[Karma]

I don't personally think that teaching basic commands establishes a basic dominance over a pup - nor do I believe you have to establish a dominent role (and therefore have a dominent personality) to have a successful relationship with a dog.  You need confidence in what you are doing and you need to bulid a mutual respect.  This includes setting standards for behaviour on both sides - "you will sit when I ask you to", "I will provide food and shelter" etc - I view the relationship as benevolent leader, rather than dictator.

Anyway - this next bit I'm not very proud of, but as this debate is continuing, I feel it is pertinent to include.

When we were struggling through the puppy-biting stage, we were at the stage where nothing felt like it was working.  Having watched various parenting programmes on tv, we were aware that "Time Outs" can be close, as well as a seperate room and (we thought) adapted that into picking Honey up, slightly away from us, so it wasn't a cuddle, but supported and safe.  And yes, it seemed to work - we thought we were simply removing her from the stimulus that was making her bite continuously (this was only done after yelps and freezes and distractions).  However this wasn't the case, as it soon became obvious when on putting her back down again she turned to try and bite, rather then chew!! She also became very much more reluctant to be picked up generally, even close and cuddled.  We reverted to the walking away and closing a door between us  final straw responce and weathered the storm....

As others have said, puppies need to learn bite inhibition - this means they need several weeks of chomping on you to know what hurts and what doesn't - therefore it does take several weeks of yelping, freezing, distracting and walking away.... 

Fortunately Honey forgave out mistake - but I'm sure she would not have done if we were doing this 5 times a day.... 

[Cob-Web]

I can though see the lifting technique as a 'controller of resources' leadership thing just like time-outs are, as in 'I decide play stops now'. And there is praise and petting the instant the pup calms down, so is it an aversive?

The key difference as I see it is that the lifting technique requires the puppy to be physically controlled - there is physical contact made between the handler and the puppy and no choices open to the pup. In the time-out method - where the handler walks away from the puppy and ends the play, there is no physical overpowering of the pup, and it leaves the puppy with choices - follow the handler, pounce on a leaf, curl up and go to sleep or even have a pee    When a puppy is encouraged into another room or a pen when it is biting; I consider that to be a distraction technique rather than time-out....the confinement is not a consequence of the biting, but the reward in the crate is a consequence of going in there in nicely 

Is Campbells book breed specific?  This technique clearly cannot be used on all breeds/dogs purely due to their physical size....

[Top Barks]

I don't personally think that teaching basic commands establishes a basic dominance over a pup - nor do I believe you have to establish a dominent role (and therefore have a dominent personality) to have a successful relationship with a dog.  You need confidence in what you are doing and you need to bulid a mutual respect.  This includes setting standards for behaviour on both sides - "you will sit when I ask you to", "I will provide food and shelter" etc - I view the relationship as benevolent leader, rather than dictator.

Mutual respect is not built on threats or dominance it is built on trust and in the grand scheme of dogs consistent training.
Cambells book is now quite old and peoples attitudes (well some anyway) have moved on from the idea that imposing authority on the dog is the way forward.
All dogs are different and the approach I take with ne dog may not be the approach I take with another so applying a blanket dominance approach is IMHO not appropriate.
Mark

[anthony mazzeri]

He's a behaviourist, so like many of these similar books he cites examples of all sorts of problem client dogs he's dealt with. The example he uses for a biting puppy is a German Shepherd, but otherwise it's general non breed specific. One book has a Giant Schnauzer on the cover, while the other has a Golden Retriever.

When we were struggling through the puppy-biting stage, we were at the stage where nothing felt like it was working.  Having watched various parenting programmes on tv, we were aware that "Time Outs" can be close, as well as a seperate room and (we thought) adapted that into picking Honey up, slightly away from us, so it wasn't a cuddle, but supported and safe.  And yes, it seemed to work - we thought we were simply removing her from the stimulus that was making her bite continuously (this was only done after yelps and freezes and distractions).  However this wasn't the case, as it soon became obvious when on putting her back down again she turned to try and bite, rather then chew!! She also became very much more reluctant to be picked up generally, even close and cuddled. 

Here we go, an actual example of a similar technique being used and the result. I can see how the pup would learn to avoid hands reaching out to pick her up if she associates it with 'end of fun', like avoiding a leash at the end of a free run at a park. Maybe that's the point of doing it even when she's not misbehaving, so there's no negative associations? (My own Alfred dislikes being picked up after learning it ended him up on the grooming bench and he learned to growl and run whenever I reached down to pick him up!). Honey turning to bite after being put back down again is an interesting reaction. I don't know what to make of that. Did you berate her before picking her up or while holding her? Did you hold her tightly and restrict her movement, or gently so she could still wiggle around? Did you praise her when she calmed down and you put her back down?

Okay, so what I'm reading from most posts here from non-professional puppy owners is that the most successful technique is 'wait until they eventually grow out of it', and all that practice teaches them bite inhibition. Worked for me too!

[anthony mazzeri]

Cambells book is now quite old and peoples attitudes (well some anyway) have moved on from the idea that imposing authority on the dog is the way forward.

So 9 years in a dog behaviour book is like 50 years in human terms? 

That's just another thing that makes it difficult for new puppy owners with  all the conflicting advice out there, in books, on the internet etc. One person advises one thing, another says it's out of date, etc. I know I personally got ultra confused reading all the differing (often quite vehemently opposing) advice when I got Alfred.

The dog looking to you for leadership and resources thing is still quite current though, eg Dog Whisperer with the NILIF. It's just been refined a bit more and the words dominance/alpha morphed into leadership/respect.

Mutual respect is not built on threats or dominance it is built on trust and in the grand scheme of dogs consistent training.

I like this. I see it more as mutual teamwork. That's how it was with my old Weimaraner before getting Alfred. I saw it as 'me and my best buddy' and never as 'me and my dog'. But like a typical superhero and sidekick team, one still has to make the decisions. But then with Alfred, I started reading all the advice.. and got confused.. and so is Alfred!

[Eceni]

It *is* confusing, particularly with idiots like Caesar Milan clouding the waters. If you want one more book to read (?!?), I'd thoroughly recommend Jean Donaldson's 'Oh, Behave!' which is essentially a series of short essays that talk through the latest in applied dog behaviour science.

I also read somewhere (can't remember where) of two behaviourists at a conference who began to refer to 'the behaviour formerly referred to as dominance' because the actual phrase 'dominance' had fallen into such disrepute.

I would still always opt for the concept of a relationship/partnership with any animal - (the horse world is as full of the bullsh1t about dominance and 'respect' as the dog world, and in almost all cases, it's a cover for bullying and heading to learned helplessness to some degree) - my horse-clicker mentor says we're aiming for good mannered horses rather than 'obedient' ones, and I'd go for the same with my dog.

good luck with the puppy biting

e (who really enjoys the way these conversations expand)

[anthony mazzeri]

That would be Patricia McConnell (Other End of the Leash) I think. They even gave it a symbol like the artist formally known as Prince. 

Horses I think are very much like dogs in they pick up on the handler's experience and attitude the same way. I could read a dozen books by the Horse Whisperer and still not be able to do it as I am totally inexperienced with even being in the presence of a horse - and the horse would know it!

I have Jean Donaldson's Mine!, Dogs are from Neptune and The Culture Clash. Culture Clash is good, but I'm still wading through it. The Neptune one sounds similar to the book you recommend in that it's a collection of specific examples.

Alfred stole and chewed up the copy of Mine! (how ironic is that?), so I had to buy another one as it was a loan from the puppy preschool trainer. I guess he smelled all the other dog smells on it. The only other book he's ever chewed up was a Welsh dictionary, go figure.

Anyway, in regards to poor Villa's initial (and only so far) post about how to stop 11 week old puppy from biting, maybe Mark's suggestion of a puppy pen is the best one for him/her then?