Author Topic: Frustrating changes  (Read 1195 times)

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Offline *Yvonne*

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Frustrating changes
« on: March 17, 2010, 09:35:44 PM »
Ben is only 4 months and i am not expecting miracles BUT

He's now weeing in the kitchen even though the backdoor is open, he always wee'd outside if the door is open, obviously i don't mind on the newspaper if the door is shut.
He doesn't recall anymore  >:( He always walked very near by and came back when shouted,  >:( now he runs off and even runs round the corner out of view!

He's growling alot while he's playing and when the kids run or are playing energetically he growls and jumps up at them  ::)

Not sure why the sudden change but its frustrating as he was doing REALLY well.

Is this normal to go through a bad patch?

Offline spanielcrazy

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2010, 09:52:24 PM »
Is this normal to go through a bad patch?

A bad patch? I'm afraid it's normal to go through many bad patches!  :lol2:

He is only 16 weeks old (to put it in perspective) so it can't be assumed that he has the idea of houstraining down pat, especially when newspapers are used. Paper trained puppies are actually a little slower to pick up on it as, despite the papers, they have been doing their business indoors.

And even if he has been taking himself outdoors, he's still in a learning process so you still have to actively work with him on his house manners.

If he is being shouted at for not coming, it won't encourage him to come! No wonder he runs out of view!  :'( You have to make coming to you a positive happy thing, with lots of praise and perhaps a treat (even if you've had to repeat the command several times  ::) :005:)

The growling and jumping up is a very normal way of puppies joining in a game, it's how puppies play with each other and it is all they know till they learn to play nice. The kids have to be taught how to play calmly around the puppy, or the puppy has to stay out of the more boisterous games for a while (sorry, can't help you with training children!  :005:)

He is really just a baby and cannot be expected to magically know how to act, it is all taught by you and it is a constant process. Keep it upbeat, happy and fun, and remember...patience, patience, patience!
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Offline Ninasmum

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2010, 09:59:41 PM »
Ben sounds like a normal pupster to me  :huh:

With the wee accidents, i would just keep encouraging him to go outside as often as poss (pref. every 30 - 45 mins) & praise him when he has.....he's only 4 months & its probably just a case that he thinks its easier & quicker for him to just wee inside.  :-\

The recall is probably because he is gaining confidence out on his walks & will want to explore knowing that you are still around. Training is an ongoing event, which often carries on for many years, so i wouldn't expect Ben's recall to be anywhere near perfect at such a young age.  Have you taken him to training classes?

I imagine that Ben's behaviour when the children are playing is just him being a puppy and joining in with the fun.  Its difficult though, without seeing his behaviour though to know if its a cause for concern.  :-\   If you are worried, perhaps it would be worth asking a behavourist to observe.  :shades:



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Offline Karma

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2010, 10:35:05 PM »

Agree with the advice given - it sounds like he is finding his feet and being a normal pup...  ;)

With the housetraining, leaving the door open can actually cause more problems, as the pup doesn't learn the difference between inside and out... take him out every half hour, and after every meal, play and sleep... give loads of praise when he goes outside!  :D

With recall, how do you shout him?  Is it a consistant command? Do you use his name?
With a young pup, you need to be really interesting, and then use your recall command (we use "Come") when he is already on his way to you... never recall him if you aren't certain he will obey, as you are only training him to ignore you!  ;)  Always give him a really yummy treat for returning to you (even if he's got distracted on the way and you actually want to kill him!!!) - recall is the only thing I still always give a food reward for with Honey, who is now 2 1/2!!!

And, yes, if the children are running around, he will want to join in, and for a dog, that includes growling and jumping.  I'd keep him on a lead while the kids are racing around, so he's not tempted to join in...  :D
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Offline black taz

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2010, 10:45:44 PM »
sounds normal to me. 

Taz was a really pain on recall when he was a pup (and it is something i still have to work on now).  If i had my time over again with Taz being a puppy, when he got to this stage i would have put a longline on him immediately to reinforce the recall - i made the massive mistake of trying to catch him (which is why i think it has taken so much energy, time, patience, etc on recall).

When i had Kira (now 18 weeks) i was determined i wasnt going to have the same recall problems, so started recall training from day one (indoors and in the garden) including whistle training.  So far she has been almost 100%, and the two times she hasnt come immediately were my fault for calling her (both time she was in the fields with part of a dead animal).  However, i am waiting for adolence to kick in and recall go out the window!

Kira still tends to have an accident every day, she will go to the door but doesnt cry and make a sound to let us know she wants to go out, so unless we are in the same room or see her going to the door we get the odd accident then. 

Offline Sarah1985

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2010, 08:00:25 AM »
Yep sounds about right. My little girls that age and just starting to find her feet but it means shes running off more. Ive been really tough on recall. Ive never had 2 dogs and Im petrified they're going to run off in different directions.  :005:

I insist on a good recall before they're allowed to go play with their friends. If lucky though in that my parks on a huge hill and if you walk at the top you can see everyone coming into the park so I can catch the recall before their friends appear. If they dont come back to me I dont let them play with their friends (nasty mummy i know). Im also building it up but Ive been practicing calling them away from various destractions. Im up to being able to get them away from a rolling tennis ball.

Treats are a huge help with recall, Especially something tasty.

My little girls also relapsing with her toilet training but I know its completely my fault. Ive been relaxing on the constant trips outside and thinking she got the bladder of my oldest, which is silly of me as shes so young. Ive just taken it back to the constant trips outside with her and rewarding the wees as they happen.

Like Karma says Id recomend actually taking him outside rather than just leaving the door open. It means you can reward at the point of weeing in the right place and If nothing else you know hes been and that he isnt going to need to go again for a little while.

ALso pups seem to go backwards at this age. You have to take it back a step for them (no matter how annoying it seems). Wait till he hits adolescent. That will test your patience.

Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2010, 09:26:05 AM »
Normal pup stuff and it's likely to get a lot worse at times in the next year or so before it improves as he discovers more wonderful scents and things to see. You have to focus on the fact that he's just growing up and discovering the world he's not being naughty and I promise that he's not a bad puppy for doing the things he's doing at the moment ;).

Agree that you need to focus more on explaining to him what you do want and 'paying' him for that so he knows it's worth his while - would you feel motivated to 'work' for free?. Good recall is vital for happy walks and takes a lot of hard work - my dogs are 3 and 5 now and I still practice good recall opportunities every walk - even though they are 99% (I've accepted it's never going to be 100%  :lol:).

As has been said above, I watch for moments when I know, without fail, that they will come and I recall then and reward them with a treat - several times a walk. Then when I do need them back at other times when there are distractions, I know their recall is reliable. They both turn on a six pence from anywhere now when I whistle them and I wouldn't have it any other way and in fact, they love it as a game too. But it has taken MONTHS of hard work and frustration to get this - one of my dogs is a rescue (she was 2 when I got her) and she has a very high hunt drive, she can't ignore scents and would just run off blindly every time she got a whiff of something when I first got her. I'd loose her for up to 40mins every walk which as you can imagine, is horrendous ::). So you can see that potentially, if the work isn't put into a puppy of a hunting breed then you can get real problems when they're older. Lots of positive work for the next year or so will pay off in barrel loads later on, but you have to keep your cool - don't get cross when it doesn't go right, work out why he didn't come back that time and try and avoid a situation like that for a while until you get lots more good practice recalls in with lots of rewards. The more times he comes back and is rewarded the more likely he is to be reliable.

You could consider getting a whistle as a distracted dog is more likely to hear that than a voice - practice recalling him with it in your garden. Choose your command and stick to it (I give 3 pips for recall), then wait until he's about to come to you, blow 3 pips with your arms out to encourage him and give him a treat and loads of praise - it wont take long for him to work out what the pips mean then you can start using the whistle on walks too and practice in the same way I've described above :D.

I hope that helps, it's incredibly rewarding when you start to see your dog maturing and becoming reliable and you know that it's down to all the positive hard work you've put in. It's very hard not to get frustrated and humanise how dogs behave, but once you accept that they're not being naughty, they're just learning and doing what they've been bred to do for 100's of years and you just need to manage that and teach them when it's ok to go off sniffing etc then you'll have a great dog. Never show frustration or that you are cross when he does come back as in his mind, he will think that you are cross because he came back to you which won't encourage him to think coming back to you is a good thing - he won't associate your frustration with the fact that he didn't come back to you when called.

With the toilet training, it is confusing if they're allowed to go in the house on newspaper sometimes and agree leaving the back door open will be confusing the boundary of where he can and can't go - you've had some great tips above on that one :D

Lots of luck, you will get there! (chocolate and wine really help I find  :lol: :005:)

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Offline *Yvonne*

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2010, 04:38:36 PM »

If he is being shouted at for not coming, it won't encourage him to come! No wonder he runs out of view!  :'( You have to make coming to you a positive happy thing, with lots of praise and perhaps a treat (even if you've had to repeat the command several times  ::) :005:
)[/quote]


I don't shout AT him for not returning, i have to shout him so he can hear me as he runs away.

I always praise him when he does ANYTHING good, pee outside, come when called etc
It just frustrating when he was heading in the right direction and has took a U turn, and i know not to expect much from him as he is only a pup but he has to start somewhere.

I know i am doing the right thing with him as i am already doing what everyone has mentioned here, so i will just persevere with him.
We have little coachy treats which are given as praise everytime he does something good.

Newspaper is not a good idea then? we have dark stone tiles in our kitchen and is difficult to see when he has pee'd so the paper is a good way of telling he had wee'd as i nearly broke my arm last week as i slipped on it.  ::) :005:

Thanks for the replies




Offline mlynnf50

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2010, 04:07:03 PM »
Hello, he sounds just the same as Selby and they are about the same age he was born on the 19th November, and Selby is doing just the same,if he cant have his own way he barks and barks so we just try and ignore him and then when he stops we talk to him, but I was also beginning to wonder if it was me doing something wrong, so it seems like the terrible twos and they are just trying to see what they can get away with, its nice to know someone else is going through the same, and I mean that in the nicest way.

Offline Mittens

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2010, 04:57:16 PM »
Ben is only 4 months and i am not expecting miracles BUT

He's now weeing in the kitchen even though the backdoor is open, he always wee'd outside if the door is open, obviously i don't mind on the newspaper if the door is shut.
He doesn't recall anymore 

Hi there - please don't be disheartened as I can assure you I went through all this when my pup was that age - he even took to coming IN from the garden just to wee in the hallway on occasion (with a defiant look on his face I swear!  :005:)... we just persevered with giving him praise and a treat EVERY time he went outdoors. We didn't use paper as we wanted him to get the hang of always going outdoors, and we didn't leave the door open for him to come and go... and all of a sudden he took to 'woofing' at the kitchen door when he needed the loo.

As for recall, I posted here loads about him 'going deaf' at that age - i bought a long line and practised and practised (he was perfect in his class and at home but rubbish when out with distractions) and i jumped around waving my arms like windmills to re-get his attention (ignore the funny looks from other dog walkers!) Mine's not 100% at 13 months, but it did get loads better around 8-9 months, and I still go on a walk with a pocket full of treats, keep a close eye on him, and he's back on lead if he plays up. All the advice on here is great - good luck  :blink: 
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Offline *Yvonne*

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2010, 05:06:49 PM »
Thanks for that mittens
I've put him back on his extendable lead again and persevere with treats etc. 

He is doing fine with his weeing again now, must have just been a phase he was going through.  ::) :blink:

Offline PennyB

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 11:30:33 AM »
I would ditch the newspaper even though he seems OK. None of my pups have been housetrained using paper as its just takes longer to get there.
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Offline black taz

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2010, 12:18:21 PM »
with regards the treats  - i find food that smells is the most production (the bought ones dont smell very appealing).  I use chicken, pilchard/liver cake, etc, and it works out far cheaper than shop bought treats (and better for them as well)

i was amaze the other day on "its me or the dog" that 1 markie is equivalent to 27gm fresh chicken in terms of calories - i know which mine would prefer!

Offline aliceandlouis

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Re: Frustrating changes
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2010, 12:28:54 PM »
So pleased the weeing issue seems a little better.

My 9 month-old Louis is really quite reliable with recall but I still go EVERWHERE with a pocket full of treats - (and usually followed by 4-5 dogs in a huddle all sniffing my pockets as I walk around our recreation ground) - and I am not sure if this will ever change, not least because the recreation ground borders an army training camp and dogs can wriggle through the boundary fence.  Much as he irritates me at times (he IS a cocker after all) I would hate for him to come to any harm should any of the trainees mistake him for a fluffy target on a 'live firing' day.

Perseverance at this stage is just so necessary (but exhausting) - I am sure he will mature into a lovely, lovely boy.