Nacho v. poorly :( BUT GREAT NEWS !

[Welsh_Wizard]

Yeah, we are both really happy with his progress considering that he has only been home for just under 3 weeks. His first week and a half he was going everywhere and anywhere but when we perservered with watching for the signs and giving him plenty of attention and treats, he picked it up within a few days. Now we are probably about 6 days without a toilet in the house BUT at a cost of me getting up every 2hrs ! 

[penfold]

Each puppy is different but every 2 hours during the night does sound a little frequent.

My coco is 16wks and, for the last few weeks, has been going from around 11pm to 6am with no accidents.

Is it possible he has just got into a habit of waking up during the night and crying for you?   Make any night time 'visits' as low key as poss, as few lights as poss, no chit chat,  on lead, straight outside and tell him to 'hurry up' (or whatever cue word you are using)  If he really is having prob 'performing' outside, it may be an idea to take a puppy pad outside so he associates the outside with toilet as well.  If he doesn't perform quickly (and he should, if he is desperate enough to be howling to get out  ) then straight back into crate (no talking, telling off etc)  and you back to bed.  ..... and repeat as required until he gets the message  

Obviously this may result in a few very broken nights for you so perhaps best to do at weekend but cockers are clever little things so should pick up reasonably quickly.  (fingers crossed!)

[Welsh_Wizard]

Had a few days of fairly unbroken sleep. He is still getting me up at least twice but they are starting to be considerably farther apart as the weeks go by. 

Lifted his water bowl at 8pm from Sunday onwards to will hopefully see the benefit of that soon.

Does anyone think that at 16 weeks, 40grams x 3 times a day is too much food ?? On 2 occasions now Nacho has literally brought back up some food but it is never close to food time, tonight it was the best part of 4 hours later. It is all food however as I had the fantastic task (delegated by 'her') to rummage around in it and check for 'stuff' - what 'stuff' is remains to be seen..

..to add, and I have a funny feeling this might not be helping the situation.. we had a 1kg of Hills Science Plan off the vets and a 5kg bag of Purina Beta from the breeder. I have read that Barking Heads is good so I went out and bought a 5kg bag of its puppy offering. The 3 different types of food have now been chucked in the dog food 'bin' and mixed up so the 40gram sittings he is having 3 times a day is an equal mix of all 3. Also, we are not mixing water with it as we were feeling he was drinking enough - should we start to change anything

[Emma xx]

To me, 120g a day doesnt sound much for a little puppy, at that age Alfie was having around 70-75g 3x daily. I'd just keep an eye on his weight and see if it falls, but hey- each dog is different so this amount of food may suit your puppy fine xx

[mooching]

Lifted his water bowl at 8pm from Sunday onwards to will hopefully see the benefit of that soon.

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with this. I don't believe that a dog should ever be without water.

Is he shut in his crate at night or is the door left open?

I would say that it's better to leave even just a tiny bowl of water down, than not to leave one down at all.

Does anyone think that at 16 weeks, 40grams x 3 times a day is too much food ?? On 2 occasions now Nacho has literally brought back up some food but it is never close to food time, tonight it was the best part of 4 hours later. It is all food however as I had the fantastic task (delegated by 'her') to rummage around in it and check for 'stuff' - what 'stuff' is remains to be seen..

..to add, and I have a funny feeling this might not be helping the situation.. we had a 1kg of Hills Science Plan off the vets and a 5kg bag of Purina Beta from the breeder. I have read that Barking Heads is good so I went out and bought a 5kg bag of its puppy offering. The 3 different types of food have now been chucked in the dog food 'bin' and mixed up so the 40gram sittings he is having 3 times a day is an equal mix of all 3. Also, we are not mixing water with it as we were feeling he was drinking enough - should we start to change anything

Sorry again, but I personally would not just mix three brands together like that. If you're wanting to change him over to one brand, then it needs to be done gradually and in a measured way. As it is, you won't be able to be sure just how much of any one brand is in what you are giving him. I don't know for sure, as I can't find all the recommended serving sizes online, but I would have thought that different brands could well require different daily portion sizes. The recommended daily amount for Hills Science Puppy, for a pup that will be about 10kg when an adult, is actually about 255g per day. From what I remember (can't find it online), I think Barking Heads recommended  daily amount is about 225g. Purina Beta's recommended daily amount for a pup that will reach 6-12kg as an adult (and I would imagine Nacho will be around the middle or upper end of that range) is 110-280g. So I'd say that you may well not be feeding him enough, rather than giving him too much.

Have you checked his weight at the vets lately?

Also, by giving him a mixture of the 3, you won't be able to tell which is suiting him better (or not suiting him better). My vet has also told me that by giving 2 or more different types together at one time, for any period longer than a week or two, it could make your dog put on weight as the nutritional balances could be very different. I would even wonder whether it could be the mixing of the food that is causing Nacho to bring some back up, because some of the ingredients may be more digestible than others (wouldn't be surprised if it could be the Beta that's causing the problems).

Could I ask if you are giving Nacho anything else at all to eat apart from his meals, and if so what? Also, if you are giving him anything else to drink other than water.

[mooching]

One extra question: is Nacho up to date with his worming?

[Welsh_Wizard]

Hiya, thanks for the quick replies - night owls like me!

Bowl is lifted completely, no access to water full stop, door is shut. It isn't something that I have done before but then I haven't had a puppy that wee's like a race horse all hours of the day!

I see your thinking about mixing the food, unfortunately what's done is done and unless I bin the lot, which is a considerable amount, I don't have any other option. I wanted him on the CSJ but they don't sell it local.

.. And yeah, he is up to date with all his jabs, tabs and dabs.

[mooching]

Bowl is lifted completely, no access to water full stop, door is shut. It isn't something that I have done before but then I haven't had a puppy that wee's like a race horse all hours of the day!

Again, I would advise against lifting the bowl at night. I don't think a pup or dog should ever be without water.

I have a metal 4" bowl that bolts on to the inside of my pup's crate day and night. I fill it half full and only need to replenish it once every 2-3 days.

Is his crate covered over with a blanket at night?

I see your thinking about mixing the food, unfortunately what's done is done and unless I bin the lot, which is a considerable amount, I don't have any other option.

You could bag it up and give it to a dog rescue. Or painstakingly sort through it all and separate it out and just chuck the Beta.

.. And yeah, he is up to date with all his jabs, tabs and dabs.

So could I just ask when he was last wormed, and with what?

To answer your questions from the other thread, so that we don't end up duplicating:

If you give Nacho his last meal earlier, he will then be more likely to poo during his evening walk. What time is his last walk of the day?

(his sleeping might also improve once you're not giving him Beta any more)

[mooching]

Maybe you didn't see my other question: What is Nacho having to eat other than his mealtime kibble? You mentioned treats - what are you giving him as treats?

Also, is he having anything else to drink other than water, and have you checked his weight recently?

[Sarah1985]

Does anyone think that at 16 weeks, 40grams x 3 times a day is too much food ?? On 2 occasions now Nacho has literally brought back up some food but it is never close to food time, tonight it was the best part of 4 hours later.

The bringing back up of food could be a syptom of eating too quick. Does he gulp his food? Was the food you saw in his sick well chewed or mostly whole?  If eating too quick is a problem just plonk a tennis ball in the middle of his dinner the act of eating round it will slow him down.

With regards to water, I used to take away my dogs main bowl at 8pm and replace it with a crate bowl that has just about half an inch in the bottom so that they still have access to a reasonable amount of water but not too much that its causing toileting problems.

[Sarah1985]

I see your thinking about mixing the food, unfortunately what's done is done and unless I bin the lot, which is a considerable amount, I don't have any other option. I wanted him on the CSJ but they don't sell it local.
 

Have you looked at feeding your dog Chudleys. Its another working dog food that does a pet variety. Local pet shops can get it in on request for me and you can order online. Its the best combination I found for being reasonably priced and without too many nasty aditives. My twos breeders both used it and they are both doing really well on it.

With regards to the mixed food. I agree with Mooching about not using it as food. Its too difficult to work out how much to feed with so much mixed in. It doesnt have to go to waste. you could use it as treats? I have a friend who owns a pet shop so Im always getting free dog food samples. Rather than buy lots of dog biscits I use food samples. Its still just as high value as it tastes different to their regular food and alot healther than alternative treats on sale which do tend to contain alot of tasties to make them taste good enough to be high value.

If you start to see an allergy develop then obviosuly you may need to apply tighter controls on what he eats but whilever he stays fit and healthy theres no reason you cant use it as treats.

[mooching]

With regards to the mixed food. I agree with Mooching about not using it as food. Its too difficult to work out how much to feed with so much mixed in. It doesn't have to go to waste. you could use it as treats? I have a friend who owns a pet shop so Im always getting free dog food samples. Rather than buy lots of dog biscuits I use food samples.

I do this as well! I only hesitated over suggesting using it as treats because there's quite a lot of Beta in there. But if it's only a few per day, then I agree that should be ok.

[Welsh_Wizard]

Moo - The treats are Bakers 'Puppy Treats'. They are these brown sticks that snap off into about 4 or 5 individual amounts. I use these with the toilet training outside which he has had since day 1 of us having him (about 3 weeks now). He hasn't had a single bout of 'runs' or sickness.

I have also, on recommendation from here, bought Jerky's Fish treats. I bought the really small ones as I couldn't find any specific for puppy. I gave him 3 of those throughout the day yesterday whilst we were doing some basic obidence training. He loved them but I have a sneaky feeling that they haven't done him any good at all.

Last night he had his tea about 1800. We went for a decent walk about 2200hrs. No poops or pee's but that isn't surprising. At about 2300, he brought up a portion of food, which was mainly half digested whole pieces as opposed to completely fluid goop. Nacho went to bed at midnight and at 0100, 0200, 0330 and 0400 he woke me up. On 2 occasions he went out for a wee and on 2 occasions he had been sick in bed. Just fluid this time but an extremely strong smell of his food.

This is the worst night we have had with him since getting him. I really don't know where to start to remedy the issue now reading all of the replies (thanks so much by the way)

Is it the food mixing issue? - in which case that needs to be changed.
Is it the treats I am using? (specifically the fish treats) - I am thinking they may have been too rich for him causing the sickness ? I don't think it is the Bakers ones as he has always had those and he hasn't had any problems.
Is it the drinking issue? - Don't really think this is the issue but due to him feeling poorly, i put his water back down last night and he had access to it everytime he got me up (but after wee!)

Just to clear up some other points :

- He is only drinking water (at least, thats all i provide him - the garden is fairly wild so god knows what he has access too out there)
- Worming was 'Shelly's Worming Syrup' with the breeder and once I got him to my local vet they used Milbemax. This last course was 2 weeks ago and his next course is in 2 weeks. I check his poops and I checked what he brought up yesterday and there was no sign of worms
- Crate isn't covered at night with anything as the room he is in is pretty dark until the sun (? -in Wales) starts to rouse
- Last walk of the day is usually about 2200hrs but depending on weather, we sometimes keep him in and play with him in the house. We have a lounge/dining room rolled into one which is at least 20ft and frizbee friendly !!
- Weight was done at vets and they say fine. He also looks physically proportionate too..

Hope that covers everything !!

[mooching]

I'd honestly suggest you find other healthier treats to give him. Maybe even make your own? (eg tuna cake)

When Alfie was younger I used either "Coachies" as treats or Mini Jacks, or bits of chicken.

I have also, on recommendation from here, bought Jerky's Fish treats. I bought the really small ones as I couldn't find any specific for puppy. I gave him 3 of those throughout the day yesterday whilst we were doing some basic obidence training. He loved them but I have a sneaky feeling that they haven't done him any good at all.

Here's a link for Fish4Dogs' treats specifically for puppies:

http://www.fish4dogs.com/Categories/Puppy-Shop/fish4puppies.aspx

Is it the food mixing issue? - in which case that needs to be changed.

I'd suggest you take him off his normal food completely, and give him chicken or white fish and rice for a few days, to let his tummy settle and see if the symptoms go away.

Is it the treats I am using? (specifically the fish treats) - I am thinking they may have been too rich for him causing the sickness ? I don't think it is the Bakers ones as he has always had those and he hasn't had any problems.

As I said, he may not appear to have any problems with the Bakers ones, but not all problem are really obvious ones. I would suggest stopping ALL treats for now, and use something like bits of cooked chicken for treats instead.

It could be that the adult fish treats you got him were too rich, especially as you gave him 2 or 3 of them. Alfie usually only has one fish treat per day, the rest are either kibble, cheese, frankfurter, wholemeal toast or chicken, and he's 7 months old.

Is it the drinking issue? - Don't really think this is the issue but due to him feeling poorly, i put his water back down last night and he had access to it everytime he got me up (but after wee!)

Is the water bowl in his crate or outside his crate?



Amanda

[black taz]

Personally, if the sickness has continued for a number of days i would make an appointment at the vets just to make sure there is no unlying medical problem.

I was also going to suggest going down the homemade treat options (pilchard cake is particular favourite of mine).

just to back up Mooching, pre-COL days i fed my cocker Bakers and he was a complete maniac but i hadnt associated it with food.  When i changed him to Hills his behaviour changed 100% for the better.