Author Topic: Breeder second thoughts?  (Read 1735 times)

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Offline jillpoppy78

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Breeder second thoughts?
« on: September 25, 2021, 08:05:06 PM »
Hello. I have a lovely 11 month old blue roan cocker (show type) and have been on the waiting list for a second from a very reputable breeder. I visited the litter today. They are 6 weeks old and have been reared indoors but recently went to a shed style set up in the garden. Mum stopped feeding at 2 weeks and has had minimal contact since. The breeder has other dogs but they are also not having contact with these. Mum is 2 and appears very nervous but not aggressive, and apparently has been a good mum to the pups. The birth was traumatic and she had a caesarean. I am slightly concerned firstly by the nervousness of the mum, who has been shown as a puppy but then not since then due to lockdown. Is it normal for the mums to be like this after birth? And also by the lack of socialisation for the pups. I would like reassurance I'm being daft as she is such a reputable breeder. She has other adult dogs that she also does not allow off the property due to risk from other dogs. Is this normal for high level show breeders? It's just the shed rearing makes me a little nervous as they are missing out on all the usual household noises and contact. She has a large garden but they are not allowed outside? The pups look in beautiful condition. She also did not ask any questions about us? We have a cocker that was sired by one of her stud dogs and perhaps she knows from her friend that we are fine so didn't need to ask? I guess I'm comparing her to other breeders rearing methods and it does seem a little old school. The cocker we have is lovely but we got her in January 2021 at the height of lockdown so she is still a little timid. We have worked so hard to give her daily positive experiences of other dogs to built her confidence. But I really had hoped to not have to do so again to such an extent. I am concerned this new pup will also be quite timid due to lack of socialisation pre collection? Can this be overcome if we go all out on the socialisation when we get her? She also wants us to collect at 7.5 weeks. Thoughts appreciated xx

Offline vixen

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Re: Breeder second thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2021, 07:28:37 AM »
I think you should trust your instincts that are telling you that something doesn’t seem right.
Before getting my new puppy, I had contact with someone I thought was reputable.  They were evasive when I asked about health certificates and I was told I would see them when I collected the puppy.  They also wanted a large sum of money in cash as a deposit.  Things I was told just didn’t ring true.  I was shown a bitch who had given birth and told she was the mother yet I wasn’t allowed to see her with her pups ????  There were at least 4 other litters on the premises who she could have been the mother of. I felt very uncomfortable and thought I was being paranoid when I was told that I was the fussiest person he had ever met. The puppy I was offered was lovely though (but most puppies are anyway).  The breeder didn’t ask anything about my experience as an owner either.
I eventually walked away but still think of the pup I could have had and whether he has a good home.
In contrast, the next breeder on initial contact grilled me.  I felt as though I was being interviewed.  They wanted to know everything about me, my previous experience as a dog owner, who lived at home, how often/long the dog would be left, size of garden, closeness to walks etc.  I didn’t mind being asked as it was such a relief to to find a breeder so determined to get the right homes for his pups.  The puppies had been well socialised as kept in the house with all the usual nosies and also taken to visit other households, taken out in car, handled by different ages etc.  A few days after the telephone conversation I was told I could visit the pups.  I saw puppies’ mum first and then the puppies ran out and they were lovely together  :luv:   It was obvious she was their mum as they all tried to suckle from her  :005:  and she allowed it.  He explained that as I wanted a bitch, he felt it really important to make sure the new owner didn’t just want a breeding machine.  He didn’t want a deposit either.  I selected a little girl which was very difficult as all the puppies were lovely and about 10 days later collected her.
Since collecting her, the breeder has kept in touch asking how she is getting on.  The whole experience has been very very positive. 
My previous 2 cockers were not raised in a house but in an outside kennel so didn’t benefit from the socialisation that my new puppy had but when I got them I quickly exposed them to lots of new things and they soon became very confident girls as they were of the age when they take most things in their stride (7 weeks at the time but now I think the minimum age is 8 weeks)
There are lots of things in your post that don’t ring true to me.  Trust your instincts.  There are lots of puppies out there at the moment from responsible caring breeders so look around and find one that you are comfortable with
Max (GSP)  always in my heart

Offline Katrina

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Re: Breeder second thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2021, 02:23:23 PM »
Hello - I'm not a dog expert by any means... however I just wanted to add that a friend of mine was allowed to collect her pup early at 7.5 weeks. Then he had an accident which led to significant vet bills (poor little puppy).  The insurance wouldn't cover them because they collected the puppy before 8 weeks and that invalidated the policy.

This is a small detail but might have big repercussions - so just FYI

Offline jillpoppy78

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Re: Breeder second thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2021, 07:44:07 PM »
Hello. Thank for for both of your replies. Very helpful points in both. I am still very torn. I am sure the mum shown was the mum as the pups did want to go to her to suckle, but it was her nervousness that bothered me. The breeder did just have the one litter and was keeping 2 from a litter of 6 for herself. Price £1800 for the pups. I don't think she was a bad breeder, just perhaps not for me. Her concern was very much raising healthy pups but not bothered really with socialisation. It's just so different to other breeders that home rear to 8 weeks plus. She did want a deposit but had not mentioned it until we arrived so did not push it. The puppies have also not yet been registered with the kennel club but are said to be in the process of being. The mum and dad are fully health tested and results on KC website. She has had personal circumstances that may explain why the registration hasn't been done, but it's another thing that unsettles me. I would not have a choice of pup as of 3 girls, she is keeping one, one to a friend and the third to me. One was less slightly appealing in structure and I'm guessing that will be mine. I guess because it's also a second dog I am thinking about compatible personality with mine and to not choose that new pup seems not ideal. I will definitely look at the insurance issue. It would be the free insurance from breeders with the kennel club.

Thanks again. More pondering to do x

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Breeder second thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2021, 08:59:38 PM »
Hi, - my dog was the first one I‘d ever had from a breeder so I don‘t have a lot experience as regards the normal procedures however I reckon your gut instinct is usually the best guide and by the sounds of things, yours is still  telling you something doesn‘t quite tick your box.
I‘m just on the middle of reading Patricia‘s McConnell‘s book For the Love of a Dog (not new but still very interesting  ;) ) which underlines the importance of good socialization in the early days as not all deficits can be be corrected later. If you‘ve any doubts at all in that respect, I‘d try and follow what your instinct is  telling you. It would be a pity to have to struggle with a difficult puppy while your own  young dog is  still developing.
Alone the attitude of the breeder that you‘re being too fussy would be enough to raise my alarm bells to be honest!  :shades:  I agree with Vixen, better to wait until you’re 100% sure.

Offline vixen

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Re: Breeder second thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2021, 06:54:48 AM »
. I don't think she was a bad breeder, just perhaps not for me. Her concern was very much raising healthy pups but not bothered really with socialisation.
As socialisation is important to you, I think you should look around at other breeders and litters and then make your decision based on what is right for you and your older girl.    You do have doubts about this particular one so follow your instincts.
Max (GSP)  always in my heart

Offline AndyB

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Re: Breeder second thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2021, 07:49:04 AM »
Socialisation is the absolute key.  Many years ago we had two cockers about one week apart.  I now know this is a definite No No.  The male puppy was from a breeder who had the puppies in the house.  He was fully socialised with household noises, vacuum cleaners, washing machines etc.  She had two children and the puppies had been handled regularly by the children.  The bitch was from a well known breeder and judge.  These puppies had been kept in the large utility room for the first 2-3 weeks and were then outside in a dedicated area with a kennel and a run.  Separated from their mom, but she was allowed with them at certain times, even though they were weaned.

The difference in the two dogs was startling.  Harvey was the cheekiest, most confident puppy, who kept popping up in the box that he travelled home from Derby in.  I was sat on the back seat of the car with the box, with blankets, at the side of me.  He just wanted to see what was going on all the way home.  Molly on the other hand, who was the larger of the two although there was only a few days difference in age, cried all the way home.  When we got home we let them both into the garden.  Harvey was running around.  Molly went on the rockery and sat on a large Westmoreland stone and would not come to us. 

Throughout their lives Harvey was always the much more confident sociable dog, he would run up to everyone to say hello when out walking off lead.  Molly on the other hand was always more reserved and just did not seem like the "Merry Cocker" we all know and love.

My husband once commented, I am so glad we had her because I fear she may have been rehomed if she had gone to someone else.  She could be a bit of a problem dog.   I think Harvey helped Molly a lot, built her confidence and they used to play together beautifully.

So NO I would definitely walk away.  Why is the mother of the pups so nervous, I would certainly be asking that.  A good breeder will ask lots of questions about you, your lifestyle, are you a full time worker, how much exercise would you give the dog, do you have young children, do you have a large, secure garden, I could go on.  Definitely alarm bells are ringing for me. 

I feel at the moment people are breeding for the money - £1,800 x 6 £££.  I know the price of puppies has gone through the roof in the last 12-18 months but personally I would be very wary.  Hopefully you will have this dog for 12-14 years.  You need a puppy that has been well socialised at a young age which will grow into a confident adult dog.

Offline Jaysmumagain

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Re: Breeder second thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2021, 11:45:00 AM »
Honestly as others have said go with what you feel.

Personally I would be terrified of looking for a puppy just because of the mine field it seems to be, there really are very good decent breeders out there and I feel that you will know it is right when you find one.

Good luck
Cocker kisses and cuddles just make my day!


You are always with me darlings Jaypup and my precious Oliver you are so missed

Offline jillpoppy78

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Re: Breeder second thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2021, 01:34:08 PM »
Hello.

Thank you again for taking the time to reply to my post. My cocker who is 11 months is the sweetest girl but she is quite anxious and has been from day one. She came from another show breeder. Home reared but removed from mum at 2 weeks. We have made a lot of progress with her but I think you have consolidated my thoughts that I need to do all I can to make sure the next puppy is confident and well socialised. I think I am going to let this breeder know this isn't perhaps the pup for us.

I am on the waiting list for another breeder who whilst not quite as successful at showing, does produce some gorgeous pups that are very well socialised. I missed out on a pup from her last year but she had has me in the Whatsapp group for that litter so I could see the pups grow up and really what sort of a breeder she is. She raised the pups indoors with so much love and care. Mum was with them until they left for their owners homes. I saw videos and they were super confident. This breeder has been so supportive of the the pup owners, so much advice. They are like a little family of puppy owners. I think that's what I want, don't I? When I rang to speak to her she grilled me for 2 hours and then had me fill in a questionnaire. But I don't mind that at all. I can talk about cockers all day. She is due to have a litter in spring. I will just have to wait until then. Last time I did rush a little into getting another cocker as I was so heartbroken after we lost our 15 year old Poppy, but it's different this time. I have a delightfully pesky bundle of fluff to keep me busy until then.

Thank you again for your advice x

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Breeder second thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2021, 02:25:17 PM »
This other breeder sounds much better, - it‘ll be worth the wait and will also give you the chance to work with your girl before the new puppy arrives.
Best of luck!   :luv:

Offline AndyB

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Re: Breeder second thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2021, 06:57:34 AM »
The new breeder sounds heaps better.  She is absolutely doing things the right way.  Don't you think it's a bit cruel to the mother to remove her babies from her at 2 weeks of age. I know bitches do get fed up with the pups trying to feed from her when they are already on solids and getting older but that sounds very harsh to me.  The new breeder is doing everything necessary to ensure her puppies go to the best home possible and asking all the right questions.  I'm assuming she will have all the necessary health checks in place for both parents.  That is something else you need to be aware of.

As you say, you have a beautiful girl to keep you occupied and Spring will soon be here.  Good Luck.