CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: grunty on September 03, 2009, 06:17:59 PM
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everytime we go in the garden with chester he play bites the wife and kids , i pinch him hard and he dont do it with me anymore the girls have tried the yelp approach NOOO approach and more but he takes no notice of them ? any ideas please
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You pinch him :o. Sorry but that is not something that should be done with any dog, let alone a pup >:(. There are plenty of threads on how to deal with this, it is best to ignore him and walk away. Stick a toy in his mouth. Anything but physical punishment.
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PLEEEEEEEASE don't pinch him, its normal puupy behaviour, you need to let him know its not acceptable to you but there are more effective ways of doing it that will leave you with a better adjusted pup/dog. COLers use positive training methods as these have been proven to work, where as aversives such as pinching and causing the pup pain are proven to have a negative effect on the dog. If he bites then make a loud ah noise , give himself something else to put in his mouth if that doesn't work remove him from the situation. For example if Belles playbiting got out of hand she was put in the kitchen not as a punishment just so that she knew she would not get any attention from doing it and both she and the kids were safe. There will be lots of good advice coming your way and positive training really is better, she is just a baby teething after all, good luck ;)
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OMG - I can't believe I have read that you pinch him :'( :o
Either try the toy like JennyBee has said, or time out if he gets a little too much - ie remove him from the area until he's calmed down.
Henry would work himself into a frenzy when he just didn't know when to stop, we had to walk away and ignore him if the ahhhh noise didn't stop him in his tracks.
Please, please don't pinch him - he'll remember that's what you do and that could lead you down a whole different issue - handshy, fearful etc....
Edited : just seen bajoleth's reply and replied at the same time ;)
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sorry we were just doing what the breeder said weve never had a dog before shes bred cocker for 45 years so we thought she was right , ihope i have not put the pup of me :embarassed:
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sorry we were just doing what the breeder said weve never had a dog before shes bred cocker for 45 years so we thought she was right , ihope i have not put the pup of me :embarassed:
All I can say is to train using positive methods - you'll have a happy dog in the long run ;)
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this will not happen again no more pinching
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Please don't worry as you,ve said you were just doing what an experienced breeder has told you :-\ Unfortunatly they are using 'Old School ' techniques which are now proven to do more harm than good >:( You have come here for advice so it shows you want to be a responsible owner, as I said positive training methods are always advised and used by COLers so you will get good advice as long as you heed the advice given here you will be fine and so will Chester ;)
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this will not happen again no more pinching
Good :D
We need piccies of Chester too :shades:
Oh, and Welcome :D
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Agree with what others have said - use the positive methods discussed on this thread and many others on the puppies board. It can take a while, but they really are effective! :D
I cannot believe a responsible breeder would advise you to do this... how many of her pups have gone to homes where this has been done to them, and what long term damage will have been caused by this!!! :o :o
It would be like suggesting a parent bite a toddler back who's bitten or kicked out etc... >:(
You have come to the right place, and with positive handling, your pup will soon forgive your mistakes ;) he may be a little wary of you at the minute, so it might be an idea to try hand feeding a couple of times a day, so that he associates you with positive experiences... :luv:
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You should be alright, he is still very young - you might have to work on gaining his trust for a while though :blink:. It makes my blood boil to think someone who should know better is giving out that type of advice >:D. A book that's recommended a lot (although I've only browsed through it) is The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey. Brodie was horrendous as a puppy, it took ages before things started to sink in, but she has turned into a lovely girl with an amazing temperament. As the others have said, positive methods are the way to go...... Will you be taking him to any classes when he's old enough?
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The yelp approach can sometimes excite the pup too if it's not done 'properly'.
Are the children running away or waving their arms about whilst they do it? If so then pup might be seeing it as an invitation to play ::) . Children need to fold their arms and play 'statues' so that they become boring ;) . Agree with everything others have said too re sticking a toy in their mouth(pup-not children) and removing pup from the situation to a 'boring' place, such as another room if they don't calm down.
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i have loads of pics of chester but dont know how to add them can i have some help please
thanks
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hes a blue ron a real cracker 10 weeks old
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Here's the sticky thread about playbiting - http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=2016.0. The Ian Dunbar link on it is excellent, but it doesn't seem to be working at the moment :huh:
And here's a thread about posting photos - http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=15703.0. Looking forward to seeing pics of your boy :D
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Aw don't worry, it's very hard to know what's best to do when a pup is seriously hurting you! Most pups bite and some are real wotsits.. I've one ok-ish pup and one that I disliked very much until he was 8 months old :lol: There are different ways to address biting but hurting the pup could cause trust issues - showing kindness takes longer for results, but delivers you a really sweet dog and ultimately a lovely trusting bond.
Saying 'ah ah' didn't work with my devil pup - I ended up quietly removing him and popping him in his own space (which was the kitchen with a baby gate across it). This way he eventually learnt that biting = no play. But it was never done in anger just quietly removing him. He HATED any conflict at infact, even saying 'No' to Dave caused an aggressive reaction as a pup so I just timed him out every time I needed to. He is a very sweet and trustworthy dog today and his best friend is my 6 yr old son (who he savaged relentlessly as a pup :lol:)
Try and keep focused on the fact that your pup WILL grow out of it and you will have a lovely kind dog, if you show kindness and consistency and above all else patience now. ;) It took my 'bad' pup 8 months before he stopped biting but it seemed to happen overnight :luv: :luv:
Good luck!
Hannah x
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i think ive made a major mistake our puppy is biteing i was told to pinch him that was a bad move then my mate said tap him on the nose with a rolled up newspaper that was even worse , what have i done he growled at me today our lovely pup who was an angel less than a week ago is turning nasty and its my fault i didnt know ive ruined everything can this be reversed :'(
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I am a complete novice too!!! but I think you should not be so hard on yourself and not try to worry about rights and wrongs. Just sit back and enjoy having your darling pup!!!! I am sure you can reverse everything, but it all takes time. Try playing and enjoying, not worry about whether its right or wrong, if it works in your house, its right!!!!! :luv: Keep your little girls always supervised, and try and get them to be as calm as poss around your pup. Good luck!!! Fingers crossed. I am on a steep learner curve with a 13mth (Harvey had him since 8 wks) and a 13 wk pair of boys(Max had since he was 9wks).
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Yes of course, try hand feeding him for a few days, so that he knows he gets nice things from you and he will not become hand shy. lots of praise when he does the right thing , you have just been led down the wrong path by wellmeaning but misled people :-\ You have to change your own behaviour and attitude first and then Chester will learn the right way and I am sure you will have a great relationship. Try and take some time out to read various threads here on positive training methods. At the moment he is not being naughty he is just doing what pups do when they are teething etc, you just need to let him know that his behaviour is unnacceptable just in a positive way as described in the posts above. Take a deep breath put what you have been told and what you have done behind you and start again
Good luck ;)
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I'm going to be brutally honest here, but you are going to end up with one messed up and aggressive dog if you keep hitting him. He is a baby, and is learning how to play and you have to teach him, and the only way to do that is through kindeness and with patience. Do you hit your children when they don't know exactly what you want them to do?
You have been given lots of good advice on here, and you choose time and time again not to take it. All your research should have been done before getting your pup.
The only solution I can see to this is for you to rehome him to someone who will treat him with love and kindness before that lovely dog ends up ruined. :-\
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my wife treats him well i was just in the garden with my daughter we took him to see if he could go the toilet i was told if he tries biteing you stand still my daughter was scared but i put my hand over her eyes and told her not to look at him or take any notice of him he kept biteing her feet her crocks really got bit bad bless her she was brave , ive been told hes trying to be dominent , im the pack leader and he keeps chalenging me im going to respond not by previous methods but by ignoring him outside and set bounderies inside not walls or doors but different bounderies that i will learn when we go to puupy classes
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This can be reversed, but you MUST stop all forms of harsh handling... surely the reaction of everyone here about the pinching advice told you that hitting your pup was not the way to go... ::) >:(
As I said before, you are going to have to rebuild your pup's trust in you - that means he needs to associate you with fun, nice things... hand feed him, play with him...
If you are going to keep taking the advice of people who want you to bully and dominate your pup, you could very easily end up with a scared dog - and a scared dog can become an aggressive dog.
If you read the various posts on here about puppy-biting, you will find tonnes of good advice on how to manage it... kind, positive methods may take longer than harsh handling, but they are far more likely to result in a happy, well-balance dog.
And forget all this pack leader, dominance stuff... he is not trying to dominate you, he is being a normal puppy... ::)
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Completely avoid ANYTHING to do with dominance and pack theory - you have a perfectly normal pup, he's doing nothing wrong. Pups bite and growl - it's all part of their learning. I think if your daughter is not coping then you need to separate them until your pup is out of this phase. I'm afraid I agree with Rats and Dogs, if you do not start ignoring the bad and praising the good behaviour there is a very good chance you could end up with a very mixed up pup :-\.
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my wife treats him well i was just in the garden with my daughter we took him to see if he could go the toilet i was told if he tries biteing you stand still my daughter was scared but i put my hand over her eyes and told her not to look at him or take any notice of him he kept biteing her feet her crocks really got bit bad bless her she was brave , ive been told hes trying to be dominent , im the pack leader and he keeps chalenging me im going to respond not by previous methods but by ignoring him outside and set bounderies inside not walls or doors but different bounderies that i will learn when we go to puupy classes
He's 10 weeks old, of course he's not trying to dominate you! He's being a perfectly normal puppy showing natural behaviours. You really really have to do a hell of a lot of research and reading if you are going to raise this pup well or 6 months down the line I promise you that you'll have a dog with issues caused by your lack of knowledge. I know you mean well but you're needing to learn a lot about puppies and dogs in order to help your wee boy. Why dont you have a good read through all the puppy board topics to get a better idea of how puppies behave? They are hard work and its a steep learning curve if you haven't had one before The first few months of a dogs life are so vital to its future so I really hope you can make some headway with this :-\
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Grunty have you done any reading on puppies and puppy care? I would suggest you get yourself a few books such as The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey, The Complete Idiot's Guide To Positive Dog Training by Pamela Dennison and/or Before And After Getting Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar and have a read of them, I think you'll find it useful. As Jo suggests having a good read back through the puppy board on here is also a good idea.
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I also hope your daughter doesn't become frightened of him after her experience... I think it would be better to distract Chester away from your daughter rather than expect a child to go through that (especially with her eyes covered). :-\
Once Chester is getting the hang of things, it will be easier for your daughter to join in the ignoring approach, but it's a bit much to expect this straight off (puppy-biting generally reduces most adults to tears at some point in the process, so IMO it really is too much for a child).
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my wifes in bits here crying her eyes out this is no game major problem please help
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Definitely read some books, puppies playbite and thats a fact even though they look cute and cuddly, they can be an absolute nightmare. Pinching, wacking him on the nose with a newspaper are not going to work, I had the stupid advice to pick mine up by he scruff of her neck and shake her like a ragdoll :o I'm a sensible person and knew this advice was rubbish even though the person had done it to their dog. Raising a puppy involves common sense, please just think about what you are doing. I never hit my babies or shook them so why would the crap advice to pinch a puppy or hit it on the nose make sense to a normal person.
Your puppy is not trying to dominate, it is playing and thats what puppies do. You need to teach your puppy what is acceptable and believe me it can take months and months, there is no quick fix after 2 weeks. Mine stopped playbiting and chasing my son altogether at about 6 months old and that is with a lot of work and training constantly for it to eventually sink in that he wasn't a plaything for her.
Don't be under the impression that you are going to learn all this at puppy classes either from my experience and not sure what boundaries you are expecting to learn at a puppy training class. :-\
BTW how old is your daughter? If its that much of an problem at the moment with your puppy biting your daughter then commons sense says to limit this, theres no way your daugher should be subjected to a puppy biting her feet especially if the puppy is biting hard, if the puppy isn't responding to the ignoring then seperate them. Why let the puppy bite your daughter - yes she was brave but she shouldn't have to deal with that if she is really young. They need to mix but not when the puppy is biting like that.
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my wifes in bits here crying her eyes out this is no game major problem please help
What is she upset about? His biting or the pinching etc.? You need to be more specific before anyone can advise you... If it is the biting then read the advice on here - it is normal puppy behaviour, it is what puppies do and it does stop but you must be kind, patient and consistent in your handling of it. If it is the pinching/newspaper well that's unfortunate but he's very young and as long as you only use kind, positive methods in future more than likely it will have no lasting effect on him. Forget this dominance/top dog idea - none of this is him trying in any way shape or form to be dominant and it is not aggression either - he's a tiny puppy and he's just doing what puppies do.
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my wifes in bits here crying her eyes out this is no game major problem please help
Your puppy is a baby, there is no overnight fix and they don't come pre-conditioned - that sounds harsh but its going to take a lot of time and repetition with positive training method.
What is the set-up in your house, can you have a time out area i.e. dog gate at the kitchen door for when the puppy is going manic.?
Please don't despair and don't give up, it just takes time and you need to start from scratch.
Oops, posted same time as Nicola.
PS How old is your child?
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I think to be fair to grunty he is trying hard to do the right thing by his pup and is asking for the right advice (by coming here) That is what COL is all about after all. He knows that some of the advice he has been given outside of COL isn't 'quite right'
i think ive made a major mistake
It is all very well for those of us on our fifth or sixth dog to see straight away where he is going wrong, but I know that first time puppy owners find it really difficult to get good sound advice. There are a lot of 'old timers' (and some of them are on TV) spouting outdated 'dominance' and 'pack theories' out there who are all too willing to offer advice to first time pup owners. I joined COL only two or three years ago and even though I was on my sixth dog and thought I was doing pretty well, I have learnt an awful lot.
I totally understand where some of the above posters are coming from though and why they are posting what might be thought of as harsh comments. I know it is out of concern for the dog.
Grunty, keep reading and posting as you will get excellent advice here. I have :blink: . Tell your wife to calm down. I have been in tears with a young bitey pup before and I know sometimes it all gets too much. Try ;) to stay calm and relaxed and it will eventually transfer to the pup. Cockers are sensitive beasties and will pick up on any anxieties you have. A calm owner will eventually produce a calm and responsive pup. It will get better. It really will.
Oh and get your daughter to put her wellys on meanwhile ;) :005:
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I think to be fair to grunty he is trying hard to do the right thing by his pup and is asking for the right advice (by coming here) That is what COL is all about after all. He knows that some of the advice he has been given outside of COL isn't 'quite right' i think ive made a major mistake
It is all very well for those of us on our fifth or sixth dog to see straight away where he is going wrong, but I know that first time puppy owners find it really difficult to get good sound advice. There are a lot of 'old timers' (and some of them are on TV) spouting outdated 'dominance' and 'pack theories' out there who are all too willing to offer advice to first time pup owners. I joined COL only two or three years ago and even though I was on my sixth dog and thought I was doing pretty well, I have learnt an awful lot.
I totally understand where some of the above posters are coming from though and why they are posting what might be thought of as harsh comments. I know it is out of concern for the dog.
Grunty, keep reading and posting as you will get excellent advice here. I have :blink: . Tell your wife to calm down. I have been in tears with a young bitey pup before and I know sometimes it all gets too much. Try ;) to stay calm and relaxed and it will eventually transfer to the pup. Cockers are sensitive beasties and will pick up on any anxieties you have. A calm owner will eventually produce a calm and responsive pup. It will get better. It really will.
Oh and get your daughter to put her wellys on meanwhile ;) :005:
I agree with what you are saying and all is not lost but its not just people you are on their multiple dogs, I am a first time dog owner and no it is not difficult to find advice, there are books and the internet and common sense and I'm not being harsh, was trying to help.
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I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone in particular :-* .
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my wifes in bits here crying her eyes out this is no game major problem please help
We are helping. Everyone on here is trying to help you, so please take on board what people are saying, read through all the puppy boards, and learn to realx and enjoy your pup. I bet your kids were hard work too, and your wife was in tears with them many times, it's the same thing.
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I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone in particular :-* .
Don't worry, was just saying its not just first time owners who always do this type of things to their puppy. :shades:
I know somewhere there is a great document on bite inhibition and may have seen the link to it from this site where it says at what stages and ages you should be at - does anyone know where that linky is as I found that really useful. Or maybe I didn't see it on this site. :-\
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I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone in particular :-* .
Don't worry, was just saying its not just first time owners who always do this type of things to their puppy. :shades:
I know somewhere there is a great document on bite inhibition and may have seen the link to it from this site where it says at what stages and ages you should be at - does anyone know where that linky is as I found that really useful. Or maybe I didn't see it on this site. :-\
If you look on page two of this thread I've posted a link that leads to the article you are talking about - but it isn't working for me :huh:
ETA here it is - is it working for anyone else? http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm
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I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone in particular :-* .
Don't worry, was just saying its not just first time owners who always do this type of things to their puppy. :shades:
I know somewhere there is a great document on bite inhibition and may have seen the link to it from this site where it says at what stages and ages you should be at - does anyone know where that linky is as I found that really useful. Or maybe I didn't see it on this site. :-\
If you look on page two of this thread I've posted a link that leads to the article you are talking about - but it isn't working for me :huh:
ETA here it is - is it working for anyone else? http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm
Oh yes, just looked, I didn't look at the linky's as have seen most of them before on playbiting. Wonder why that doesn't work as its a really good link, maybe MODs can look into it as its posted on the sticky.
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I did a search for Ian Dunbar puppy biting and found
http://www.roycroftcavaliers.com/manualbiteinhibitionarticle.htm (http://www.roycroftcavaliers.com/manualbiteinhibitionarticle.htm)
It's not quite as detailed as the link in the sticky was, but gives some good initial reading... :D
editted to add....
This one is a great article with several good links!
http://www.doggonesafe.com/stop%20puppy%20from%20biting.htm (http://www.doggonesafe.com/stop%20puppy%20from%20biting.htm)
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Found this
http://dogtime.com/puppy-training-biting-nipping-dunbar.html
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my wife phoned the breeder last night shes traveling 95 miles to sort out the pup shes saying 1 thing and other people are saying different who do i believe, i know shes grab the pup behind his neck and shake him like his mum does in the pack i said to her will this turn the pup violent she said if anything hell go of and sulk shes been breeding cockers for 45 years + the advice on here is brilliant but we need to be shown i think , i know a few people on here will object , im not sure its right either? :-\
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my wife phoned the breeder last night shes traveling 95 miles to sort out the pup shes saying 1 thing and other people are saying different who do i believe, i know shes grab the pup behind his neck and shake him like his mum does in the pack i said to her will this turn the pup violent she said if anything hell go of and sulk shes been breeding cockers for 45 years + the advice on here is brilliant but we need to be shown i think , i know a few people on here will object , im not sure its right either? :-\
Grunty your pup doesn't need 'sorting out', your wife could save herself the time, effort and expense of a long trip if you read through the links you've been given above rather than visit a breeder who up to now hasn't given you best of advice.
If you think about whats been posted, lots of people have told you they've been through a similar experience and the pup is behaving like any other. To 'sort it out' read through the links, take a deep breath, keep it in perpestic and try not to over react. You have a small pup displaying normal behaviour and there is good advice in the links about the best way to handle it without resorting to harsh methods.
What is she travelling all that way to be shown? Your post makes it sound like the breeders going to demonstrate (in your words) 'grab the pup behind his neck and shake him like his mum does in the pack'.
I appreciate you're asking for advice which is good, but now try to listen to the advice thats been given.
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not thinking your breeder is the sort of person too many people would appreciate on this site, although i am new myself :huh: But seriously, just begin again today, you must have read all of your replies, now just put the kettle on have a cup of tea, sit on the back step and enjoy watching your little baby run around the garden, then huge praise when he does anything, if he does anything. Then when your tea is finished sit a while longer then all go back in and have a cuddle infront of Match of the Day. then when thats over, more tea and more playing outside then Chester will probably want to go and have a little snuggle somewhere. Make sure your daughter is really calm around him or why not get your wife and daughter to pop out for a while. then it will be quiet in the house. and you can read more advice when Chester is sleeping.
It's all learning, but gentle and slow. None of the training stuff happens over night but a few months down the line you will one morning think yahoo there has been no biting, or wee on the floor but it takes time.
Please think very carefully about what you are doing taking advice from the breeder as opposed to the kind people on here who give their advice without bias. REMEMBER your breeder will be desperate for you not to return Chester, these wonderful people on here have nothing to gain but peace of mind you are treating your pup with care, love and UNDERSTANDING!!!! Good luck
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Grunty,
In which part of the country do you live? I only ask this as I am sure a member on COL will be able to recommend a good dog trainer for you to seek well quailfied advice from ;)
Much better that, than rely on the 'help' of your dogs breeder. TBH, from what you've said, I wouldn't let her in the same room as one of mydogs ph34r
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Well put Harveynmax ;).
I haven't checked out all the links given, so apologies if this is the same, but this is another one of Ian Dunbars advice on puppy biting. If you can substitute the Americanisms for UK responses you wont go far wrong.
http://www.tristateweimrescue.org/information/info_dog_bite.html
I found out very early on that it is easy to overexcite a cocker pup (not sure if it applies to all breeds, but I suspect so) , purely by tone of voice alone, especially a tired one. A tired and overexcited one can easily get into a biting frenzy that it doesn't respond well. If you can't calm him down by tone of voice, and then ignoring him,, then the next option is to immediately remove yourself from the room ( if that is not a safe option, then quietly and gently removing him from the situation to a safe place), so that he gets no attention until he calms down. You will undoubtably have to repeat this several times a day for several weeks, but in this way you will have dealt with the situation without jeapordising your future relationship with him. HTH
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Forgot to add.... My breeder is absolutely lovely and she would be absolutely appalled by the advice you have been given. LOVE is the only way forward for you......please don't let your baby get shaken!!!! I am sure you wouldn't let your daughters carer, shake her if she is throwing one so please don't let anyone do it to Chester. x CALM CALM CALM Did I miss which part of the country you lived?
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my wife phoned the breeder last night shes traveling 95 miles to sort out the pup shes saying 1 thing and other people are saying different who do i believe, i know shes grab the pup behind his neck and shake him like his mum does in the pack i said to her will this turn the pup violent she said if anything hell go of and sulk shes been breeding cockers for 45 years + the advice on here is brilliant but we need to be shown i think , i know a few people on here will object , im not sure its right either? :-\
Thats the crap advice I received ::) ::) How is she going to sort the pup out :o, he hasn't done anything wrong - its normal puppy behaviour.
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Please, please, please do not start scruffing your pup - you have already said this doesn't feel right to you - and remember this breeder is the person who previously suggested pinching your puppy!!! >:(
Have you read the links that were posted last night??? These discuss step by step how to manage puppy biting and give other excellent advice.
Have a look at this link too - http://www.scallywagsdogs.com/Downloads/owners_guide/owners_guide_frame.htm (http://www.scallywagsdogs.com/Downloads/owners_guide/owners_guide_frame.htm) - it's the owners guide from the dog training school we use - written by qualified trainers.
As Bluebell says, if you really feel you need someone to demonstrate how to manage puppy biting, let us know where you are and I'm sure someone can recommend a good trainer - most will do a home-visit for new pups to give advice on a whole range of issues, including toilet-training and play-biting!!! :D
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my wife phoned the breeder last night shes traveling 95 miles to sort out the pup shes saying 1 thing and other people are saying different who do i believe, i know shes grab the pup behind his neck and shake him like his mum does in the pack i said to her will this turn the pup violent she said if anything hell go of and sulk shes been breeding cockers for 45 years + the advice on here is brilliant but we need to be shown i think , i know a few people on here will object , im not sure its right either? :-\
Nooooooo!!! Please please don't let your pup be anywhere near that breeder! You CAN sort this out yourself but first you need to take a step back, relax a little and have some confidence in yourself. This is a puppy, with lots of question asking on here and a little bit of straight thinking you CAN sort this out.
There are breeders on here that combined probably have over a hundred years of experience but yet I bet you anything that not one of them would agree with your breeder.
Just ask yourself, if you are going to pinch this puppy everytime he does something wrong, what are you going to do when he's older with a bit set of teeth? What happens one day when he is older and you go to pinch him for doing something wrong and he turns around and takes a chunk out of your arm? What then?
If you carry on you WILL end up with a dog that will see a hand coming towards him as a threat. Be it your hand, your wife's hand, a strangers hand or even worse a child's hand. Believe me that is a much bigger problem than the one you are dealing with now .
Please listen to what you are being told on here , you won't regret it :blink:
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Grunty, its really great that you have come on COL to seek help and you have had loads of great advice, but maybe having a pup at this time is not the best thing for your family or for Chester. Reading your posts it seems you are rather overwhelmed, and you say your wife and daughter are getting upset. If Chester isn't handled correctly now then it may cause further problems.
I would suggest your two options are a) to let us know where you are located, so that we can recommend a trainer to help and guide you with Chester in the proper way or b) to let this site help you find a more experienced home for him BUT if this is your choice, please let the people at COL help you with this, there are some great people on here that could help you with either option.
I do understand that it is overwhelming to get a new puppy, I am finding it so and do feel for you, but it is important that you sit down and ask yourself whether you can cope with Chester. Please seek help with either option from here first.
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Grunty, I have answered all of your posts and given you advice from our experience of owning a pup, Belle is 6 mths and I have 4 children 3 of them 7 and under. So I do know how much hard work it is. I don't think that you were prepared at all and I am going to be brutally honest here, I don't think you are ready for this pup. I am only going from all your posts and responses, you sound like you are at the end of your tether and want a quick fix, there isn,t one :-\ I don,t think you are willing or able to put in the hard work expected and needed. I think and its hard for me to say it that the pup needs to be rehomed, usuallly the pup would be returned to the breeder but in this instance I think you need to do what is right for the pup and take it to a reputable rescue centre to be responsibly rehomed. I honestly think this is best for you and the pup. I have no more advice to give you and really hope you can do the right thing , all the best and take care, Jo
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my wife phoned the breeder last night shes traveling 95 miles to sort out the pup shes saying 1 thing and other people are saying different who do i believe, i know shes grab the pup behind his neck and shake him like his mum does in the pack i said to her will this turn the pup violent she said if anything hell go of and sulk shes been breeding cockers for 45 years + the advice on here is brilliant but we need to be shown i think , i know a few people on here will object , im not sure its right either? :-\
Grunty, canine mums do NOT behave like this - I have never seen any of our Cocker girls do this to their pups over a period of 25 years. Your breeder may well have been producing pups for 45 years but that does not make her a good breeder - it sounds like she has very fixed, old-fashioned ideas and believes physical force is needed to train puppies. Please listen to all the people who have given you sensible advice on this thread. There is no need for your wife to travel 95 miles to be shown how to train your puppy (particularly as the advice you're getting from this breeder could well make matters worse). If you would like someone to come to see you and give you some one-on-one tips on training, then check out www.apdt.co.uk for a trainer near you who offers one-to-one training sessions. These kind of sessions can be invaluable in showing you what to do and reassuring you that you have a completely normal puppy.
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my wife phoned the breeder last night shes traveling 95 miles to sort out the pup shes saying 1 thing and other people are saying different who do i believe, i know shes grab the pup behind his neck and shake him like his mum does in the pack i said to her will this turn the pup violent she said if anything hell go of and sulk shes been breeding cockers for 45 years + the advice on here is brilliant but we need to be shown i think , i know a few people on here will object , im not sure its right either? :-\
I am a professional dog trainer with a foundation degree in canine behaviour so hopefully I do know what I'm talking about ;) so my advice would be to listen to what you have been told on here.
Your breeder sounds like she has not got a clue. >:D
Just because some body breeds dogs does not makethem a behaviour expert. :huh:
In fact from the advice given to you by her it is obvious to me she is far from it. >:(
There have been some very good links put on here, I suggest you read them and if you need help with your pup's behaviour then contact a suitably qualified and experienced local trainer (preferably a member of the APDT) who can help you.
Please do not go down the scruffing road as it will more than likeley end in tears.
As others have asked where are you in the country?
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If you would like someone to come to see you and give you some one-on-one tips on training, then check out www.apdt.co.uk for a trainer near you who offers one-to-one training sessions. These kind of sessions can be invaluable in showing you what to do and reassuring you that you have a completely normal puppy.
Jane I just tried to look at that link, it wouldn't work for me.
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Ditto x 1000 to what the others have all said. I reckon that if you tell us where you are then the nearest COL member will be getting straight in their car to come and help you and your pup! I know I would! Please dont go to this breeder or anyone else who has given you bad advice. Take our advice and that of a qualified APDT trainer.
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If you would like someone to come to see you and give you some one-on-one tips on training, then check out www.apdt.co.uk for a trainer near you who offers one-to-one training sessions. These kind of sessions can be invaluable in showing you what to do and reassuring you that you have a completely normal puppy.
Jane I just tried to look at that link, it wouldn't work for me.
I think the apdt site is temporarily down.... I'm sure it'll be back up again, but I noticed this earlier when I was looking for advice for grunty.
When it's working they have a section with advice for puppy training and this advices against the sort of methods he is being told by the breeder...
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you have been given some brilliant advice on here :D
From reading your posts you seem very much at the end of your tether which I can understand. Me and my OH have never argued as much as we did when when we have had a new pup. The lack of sleep and deemands of a new puppy are really difficult to deal with and as we couldnt take our frustrations out on the pups we took them out on each other :embarassed:
I do think tho that your breeder is offering you false hope >:D the solutions given to you on here are a slow process and take time where as shes saying do this and it will have immediate effect and I can understand why that must be very tempting for you.
I have no doubt the scruffing and shaking the pup will have the effect you desire and he probably will very quickly stop play biting but he will stop because he will be frightened of you and you family and he will lose all trust in you. He will be confused and scared. Once that has happened you could end up with a dog thats frightened to come near you and whats called a "timebomb" dog. His fear and frustration could build and build until one day he bites :'(
Puppies are little >:D >:D and try the patients of a saint but play biting is just that to a pup PLAY. they have no idea it hurts or that its not acceptable to us humans and its our job as owners to teach them. Your pup has no idea the effect this is having on your family hes just doing something thats completly natural to him. Hes spent the last few months with his litter mates playing by biting them and rolling round play fighting with them and wont have made the connection that humans do not play in this way yet. The same as a toddler explores by putting things in his mouth your pup is experimenting with his teeth.
The quickest way I personally have found to deal with this is to say "time out" and leave the room. You do have to teach them that this behaviour is not acceptable and you wont give any attention for it but you have to do it in a way that makes your dog think, the lightbulb will go on and one day they will get that biting means they are on there own. Frightening a dog really is the worst thing you can do.
I also like time outs because it gives the puppy chance to calm down, just like toddlers they get over stimulated and over tired but never know when to go to sleep, there too scared of missing anything! A pup thats over excited wont take anything in and wont be in control of himself. Its also your dog to teach your pup some self control again in a positive way. A confident, happy pup is the easiest to train because a worried pup cant focus.
To get the most out of your pup or dog the main thing is trust. Our dogs have to truse us that were not going to hurt them and that what we are doing with them is a good experience. When you get to training classes if there is no bond with your pup it will not work with you. My biggest aim with all my dogs wether i got them from pups or adults is that they trust me, everything else comes with time. You cant build any kind of relationship IMHO until you have that trust.
The other problem with punishment is that it escalates, you have gone from pinching your pup, to tapping him with newspaper and now scruffing. What will you do when the scruffing stops working?
What about in training when your dogs frightened of you and not doing what you want will you scruff him for that too? If you choose to go down this road its very very hard to turn back. Please please think about what it will do to a tiny 10week old pup to be frightened, they depend on us for so much and our job as owners to protect them from harm not to cause it
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I think you need to get your wife to read the advice given here :-\.
It's been said before numerous times and I'm going to repeat it again - your puppy is perfectly normal.
I have lived with a dog with fear aggression and believe me, that is a route you do NOT want to go down. I wrote earlier that my Brodie was a nightmare pup - if I had done the cruel methods that you have been told to do by your breeder, I would not have ended up with the lovely dog I have now - she absolutely adores people, especially children. Do you think she'd be like that if I went about pinching her or scruffing her? How would she know that the hand coming towards her is going to pet her or make her hurt?
Please please do not use these cruel methods. Playbiting is essential - puppies that playbite learn bite inhibition. Do the right thing and you'll end up with a beautiful dog. Pinch and scruff him and at best you'll end up rehoming him - at worst it will be a one way trip to the vet :'(. Please listen to what is being said here, there are a lot of very experienced people on here who know a lot more about dog behaviour than your breeder.
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My Mum has a working cocker who was raised with harsh methods. At the time she believed it was right to bite him back if he bit her :o
He was very heavily handled when he was younger and it has caused so many problems :'( My Dad had even pinned him to a wall by his neck for biting :'( :'(
They just wouldnt listen and my dad is the kind of numpty who thinks it funny to growl at dogs and stare them out ::) we actually dont speak now.
Even though my Mum saw the light and has been trying hard he can not be trusted around children, has bitten on more occasions than i can count, he is an extream guarder, suffers seperation anxiety and basically needs careful handling at all times.
Hes eight now and cant handle many situations and gets stressed or frightened so easily. Its horrible to watch and my Mum really struggles to cope with him and has to plan her whole life around him.
She feels so guilty about what happened in the past which has unfortunatly lead to her going to far the other way and shes constantly trying to cuddle him better ::)
Its really not nice to see and owning a dog you cant trust is horrible.
We have Guiness for her occasionally and when hes here although we have to be careful we have never had an incident with him, it really is all down to trust.
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Grunty Please do not be shy as to come back onto the thread as all these lovely people are trying to help. Please do not be too proud to admit you have made a few mistakes but today can be your new day one. Make a fresh start, there is lots of support for you on here. :blink:
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Grunty Please do not be shy as to come back onto the thread as all these lovely people are trying to help. Please do not be too proud to admit you have made a few mistakes but today can be your new day one. Make a fresh start, there is lots of support for you on here. :blink:
I agree :blink:. Here is a couple of links to articles that show the danger of rough handling -
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090217141540.htm
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2009/6361.html
and here's the original Ian Dunbar article that we were talking about - http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=64170.0. This article helped me so much with Brodie.....
Apologies if they've already been posted on this thread x
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Hi Grunty. I really feel for you as we have a 4 1/2 month pup who really tries our patience sometimes, but I have to say that any advice I've read on this forum has made sense, especially the "time out". They get past the point of understanding anything and both the pup and you need space. My mum was of the opinion that a whack with a rolled up paper would inhibit biting - her only experience of dog ownership was terrier pup bought in ths 60's from a pet shop in Manchester - he was PTS age four as he was completely uncontrolable and aggressive, poor thing. Needless to say I will be following the COL way. I really hope things get better for you.
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Grunty, I have been following your thread but haven't replied till now cos there are so many experienced dog owners and breeders on here that I felt any contribution of mine would be overkill. However, I feel compelled to comment now. I am a first time dog owner too and I had times when I thought to myself "what have I done, I can't cope with her". But the advice and support that I have had from this forum, has got me through. Please listen to what folk are saying to you. I know you probably think your breeder must be some kind of expert, having bred dogs for 40 odd years, but listen to the majority voice. Her views and methods are cruel and totally outdated. People on this forum use positive reward based training, and the forum actively promotes and reflects these methods. You have received some brilliant advice, some excellent links to further reading, and great support. I have been looking back at all your posts, and so far, I haven't read one positive comment you have made about your dog. As one or two others have said, it doesn't sound like you did much research before you got your pup, so I would suggest you start doing that research NOW...and listen up to what people on here are saying to you, otherwise you'll land up with a very unhappy dog, not to mention yourself and your family. And for what its worth, Crazy Cocker Gang's posts echo my thoughts word for word. Sorry for the long post
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Dear Grunty,
Please make a fresh start, forget what has gone by and start again. Your pup is 10 weeks old and you can get over this.
We all make mistakes and are thinking we are doing the right thing when we are not. I wish I had discovered COL when I had my first cocker pup as there is a wealth of knowledge out their from some wonderful people.
My first pup Bella had me in tears on more than one occasion but we worked through it and I now have a fabulous dog who is so loving and endearing.
Having a pup is not always easy especially I found if you have not slept properly either. However it does get better with time.
I would always go for positive loving methods and even now if my dogs get one on them I send them out to "cool down" that means out of the room or in the garden where they get no attention. When they have calmed then they can come back in. I don't hit them..
Have you tried giving him carrots to chew or cardboard boxes to shred to keep him occupied. You can also get puppy Kongs and use kong paste or salmon paste in it. I used to think that my pups were crossed with crocodiles and those little teeth really hurt.
Before I had my pup I researched loads and I can highly recommend the Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey, its a lovely book, easy to read and follow with lots of lovely pictures. I read it over and over. Good luck Grunty and please let us know how you are getting on.
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Oh no..... Grunty, please please don't go back to this horrendous breeder. Neither of my cocker pup breeders would have suggested what she is suggesting and I wouldn't care if she'd been breeding dogs for 70 years, she is NOT giving you good advice. Do you want a relationship with a lovely adult dog.. or one that's scared of you and may start to fight you and become a fear aggressive adult dog because hurting and scaring puppies can end up with very messed up adult dogs - that don't trust you.
I'm so so disappointed to read your last post after all the advice you've had. There are a number of breeders on this website and NONE of them would suggest what you've been told to do.
What about meeting up with another COL member that's been through it too to talk it through a bit more? Where abouts in the country are you - I'd be happy to meet you if you're within a reasonable distance and you can meet my cocker that was the WORST puppy biter I've ever met and see what a lovely dog he's grown into and how trustworthy he is with my young child and baby too - I'm in Surrey.
Please please please do not take anymore advice from this awful woman... please.
Hannah x
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Hi to everyone, this is gruntys wife. From reading all your comments i am a little angry. I will not be taking chester to a rehoming place, i wouldnt dream of it. The problem was , that i was getting a little frustrated due to the fact i didnt know how to deal with chester when he was playbiting.
Some friends of ours came round to see us the other day. They are dog trainers at our local dog club. They gave me alot of advice on looking after chester.
I must say i feel more confident now. I have already got him to sit and stay for his meals and sit when i ask him too. I am well chuffed. He seems to be more awake in the day and playing more and slleping well at night.
We will not be giving chester up, he is ours and we will look after him well, he is getting used to our family now. Im looking forward to spending more time with him as he gets older.
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if there is anyone you should be angry at Grunty's wife, it is your breeder for offering such awful advice, and perhaps yourselves for not researching perhaps as much as you could have about puppies.
I must admit that reading this thread it really sounded like a cry for help from your husband and everyone has offered really helpful advice - it DID sound like the puppy was too much for you if you read what your husband wrote about your lack of sleep and tears so you can't expect people NOT to suggest re-homing under the circumstances.
I don't know why it has taken until now to come to light that you have 'friends' that are dog trainers - I only hope they are APDT trained and use positive and kind methods as to date the methods you have been using suggested by the breeder and others have been negative and cruel resulting in an unhappy and frustrated little pup.
I hope you and your husband will take on some of the advice offered to you on the threads ;)
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That is brilliant news :luv: I really hope you weren't offended by people's comments on here, everone was only trying to help, and those who suggested rehoming as an option were only doing so, because it sounded like you really were at the end of your tether. I for one, look forward to hearing lots more posts like this, I'm so pleased for you, puppies can be so incredibly hard work and its not always easy. Good luck to you...and keep posting :luv:
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Hi to everyone, this is gruntys wife. From reading all your comments i am a little angry.
That's a shame as you've received five pages of excellent advice from members who have taken the time to try to help you. I think only a few posts (out of the whole 5 pages) mentioned rehoming and while you might not have liked this, your husband certainly gave the impression you were all at the end of your tether so it's not really surprising that some were worried it might come to this. Anyway, it's great your trainer friends have been able to help so I'll close this now and you can start a new thread if you need to ask for more advice at any stage.