Doogle does not like to be told off

[Snoo]

I second what Holly2009 wrote. Scruffing, even gently, doesn't sounds like a nice way to train a puppy. Mother dogs might do it, but I don't think we humans need to resort to it! 

[Amanda463]

I've always had dogs and Doogle is just one of many pups I've had before.  The only difference is that all my pups have been girls, he is my first boy, and what a difference.
I can honestly say that my girls where a breeze compared to him.
However, having said that he is starting to calm down quite a bit.  Of course there are the mad half hours but occasionally he does go a bit too mad so we put him in his crate for a bit of time out.
He is actually listening to us now and follows us everywhere..I think he will turn out to be a fine dog 

[Juno]

She whelped like I was really hurting her but I have continued to just hold her gently by the scruff when she wont listen - she now accepts it to the point if I only touch her gently by the scruff she obeys (gets 'down' off the sofa for example - great game waiting for me to say off then leaping up in the air doing a bit of a spin and landing on her feet looking at me saying da-dahh! then doing it again on the other sofa) - a gentle couple of scruffs and a low tone 'down' does it - well till next time! - but it gets her attention. She still doesnt really like it and pretends she is going to nip me but doesnt and I let go quickly as soon as she does what I ask.

As it's only working "till next time", then I'd say it's not working at all and you should perhaps try a kinder method.

You really REALLY don't want her to associate your hands coming near her with something horrible and possibly painful (you said she yelped) like scruffing.  My dog is bolshy and confident and we have a great bond but once she bolted for the door without a collar on and I had no option but to grab her fur around the scruff area - for a week or so afterwards, if I put my hand down towards that area she leaned away from me and it was horrible.

Also, she's not pretending to nip you - she's telling you in her own language that she's uncomfortable with you doing it!  My dog hates having her feet touched and will mouth my hands and arms me to tell me so.

Surely a much simpler, and kinder method to get her off the sofa would be to toss a treat onto the floor. Once she has the hang of it you can fade out the treat and replace with praise/a fuss.

[JeffD]

I have scruffed all of my spaniels the best way to get them  back from over a barbed wire fence, I have seen to many ripped spaniels to let mine jump barbed wire. None of them have ever minded being lifted or helped over by this means. One of the reasons I chose a Cocker this time was because I wanted a small dog that I could lift easy now I suffer with a bad back.

For this reason I would never have used scruffing as a part of punishment, not that I ever punish dogs even old fellers like me worked out many years ago that is not the way to go as it simply doesent work.
I have seen many gundogs being physical punished on shoots and never once did it ever correct the fault for more than a short time, 2 weeks later same dog, same shoot, same problem so dog gets the same punishment and guess what it still don't work end of story.

Joe Irving's book is very good but very old school in places, but a lot of gun dog trainers strongly recommend it, so pick out the good bits and leave the old fashioned bits, change the punish to reward.

 

[Karma]

Just to echo what others have said... please don't scruff your pup to control it (there is a big difference between scruffing as a "behaviour management" tool and lifting an adult dog over a potentially dangerous obstacle using their scruff).
Your pup could easily become hand-shy and nervous of you.  Even if your pup doesn't suffer the negative effects, the "positives" will only apply when the "threat" (ie you) is there, or as long as the level of "threat" outweighs what the dog views as the positives of the undesirable behaviour - better to train with kind positive methods so that they know what behaviour you *do* like, and that this is rewarding for them. 

I have recently had to restrain my dog at the vets for examination and later for stitch removal after she got plant debris inside her armpit.  Now, when I get down on the floor with her and come anywhere near her front leg, she runs for her crate.  I had no choice but to restrain her for the benefit of her health, and it has damaged her trust in me which was 5 years in the making.  Because I have had 5 years of gaining her trust, I am sure that, in time, she will trust me again (aided by some clicker work to help desensitise her again), but this does just show how easy it is for any hands-on approach to our dogs to cause problems.... 

[penguins87]

I have just been reading through your other thread regarding Doogles 'manic howling' and I'm not sure water pistols and shaking stones in bottles has helped in that Doogle does not like being told off . It may be why he is barking and lunging at you ..

Please be careful as he may become frightened of you he is so very young  and needs to learn to trust you to develop a strong bond . Please try reading a few threads on the forum regarding positive training methods .

[Amanda463]

I have just been reading through your other thread regarding Doogles 'manic howling' and I'm not sure water pistols and shaking stones in bottles has helped in that Doogle does not like being told off . It may be why he is barking and lunging at you ..

Please be careful as he may become frightened of you he is so very young  and needs to learn to trust you to develop a strong bond . Please try reading a few threads on the forum regarding positive training methods .

I've always had Cockers but they have all been girls. Doogle is very demanding.  He tries to get my attention by being naughty or barking/howling. The stones in a bottle was suggested to me by a dog trainer, which we have tried over the last week. As I said in the previous thread they see to work initially but not for too long. He doesn't see what makes the noise and he never saw the water squirter, for the reason that I did not want him to associate them with me.  His crate was always covered. I would be grateful for any positive enforcement ideas to help stop this behaviour.
He's currently cuddled up on my lap fast asleep  Definitely not afraid and never likely to be 

[Juno]

I've always had Cockers but they have all been girls. Doogle is very demanding.  He tries to get my attention by being naughty or barking/howling. The stones in a bottle was suggested to me by a dog trainer, which we have tried over the last week. As I said in the previous thread they see to work initially but not for too long. He doesn't see what makes the noise and he never saw the water squirter, for the reason that I did not want him to associate them with me.  His crate was always covered. I would be grateful for any positive enforcement ideas to help stop this behaviour.

If you want him to love his crate, don't scare him with loud rattly noises he can't see while he's in it.

What do you mean when you say he is "being naughty"?  It takes a good few months for pups to settle into their new lives and learn their new routines and what is expected of them.  Instead of frightening him with a loud noise, you need to distract him - perhaps with a toy or call him over and reward him with a treat when he comes.  What we would consider "naughty" is usually just normal puppy behaviour - they explore the world with their mouths.  Imagine a toddler exploring - they pull your hair, poke your eyes, etc. - you just distract them with something else!

I'd also take what that dog trainer says with a pinch of salt as anyone who knows their stuff will tell you aversives have no place these days

[Karma]

The stones in a bottle was suggested to me by a dog trainer, which we have tried over the last week.

Have given you advice on the other thread, but just on this point, if the trainer you are using is registered with the apdt (anyone can set up as a trainer with no qualifications or experience, but the adpt keep a register of trainers who have met specific standards of practice) he would be breaking the code-of-practice by advising this kind of training.