Yet another post about biting - very long but need thoughts on my theory please

[April Shower]

So .....  I don't know if I'm being fanciful and completely misreading doggy signals (complete novice) but please let me know what you think.  I'm afraid this is an extremely long post, but I genuinely want to get to the bottom of this problem and I value advice from forum members with all their experience. If you have any feedback please be brutally honest - if you think I'm crazy, please say so!!  Archie is now about 15 weeks and has been a biter (not a nipper, a biter), since we've had him.  I've followed advice on how to handle it (positive reinforcement etc.) and now I'm starting to develop a theory - but I really need those of you with experience to tell me what you think.  Who knows, it may be a well documented puppy behaviour that everyone else knows about and I don't.....   Here goes.  I think Archie bites out of affection.  I think he thinks the more he bites the more he's showing affection.   The biting happens mostly when we get affectionate with Archie - scratching him behind his ears, rubbing his chest etc.; also when he's allowed in our living room with us in the evening - he just clicks as soon as he walks through that door; and also when he's excited to see us again after we've been in another room for a while without him - 5 minutes, an hour, whatever. There's no biting connected with food or toy possession, or fear of us, or fear of a situation, as far as I can tell.  As soon as we start to talk sweetly to him, and rub his chest or his ears he either rolls onto his back for a tummy rub - with the jerky legs which I'm guessing is a reflex, snaking his head and body from side to side, seemingly in bliss.  Or he'll bow his head while you rub behind his ears, or he'll start licking your arm as you rub his chest.  Then all of a sudden in each of these situations he'll snap (literally and metaphorically) and bite really, really hard - your hand, arm, calf, thigh, roll of belly fat (too much info sorry)  This only happens when we think we are being affectionate (and also during his zoomies which might be a slightly different scenario).   We've tried a little yelp, time out, ignoring, etc. and as soon as we start to make up again afterwards by touching him & sweet talking he bites again.  It could go on endlessly in a loop if we let it.  If we stop the affection so that he can't get in this state, then Archie himself instigates it by 'sitting nicely" in front of us, head on one side, paw up to our knee, or rubbing his head against our legs.  And then when we respond, Bam! he's off again.  Now - heres my theory - I think he believes all the biting is affection.  When he wants to make up he bites harder.  When I make the ah-ah-no sound, he might sit back, look concerned, tilt head,whimper and shuffle slightly backwards in that way they do when they're trying really hard not to bark, and then Bam! launches and bites even harder.  After he bites I might put him behind the doorgate and walk away from him.  Then he does the whimper-trying-not-to-bark thing and as soon as I go back in to him or let him out  Bam! biting again.  The only way I can explain it is he thinks biting is a sign of affection and if he wants to  be really affectionate, he bites harder.  He seems to be confused by us rejecting him when he bites, and he bites again and again seemingly in an effort to win us back.  Am I mad thinking this?  Am I seeing something that's not there? I'm just confused and don't know how to let him know the biting is BAD.  I think he thinks its showing his LURVE .  I feel as though I should rap him on the nose or something when he's clamped onto me, so that he knows he's hurting, but that sounds terrible .  What do you think?  I've just read over my post and sound like a complete twit.  He flipping well bites and hurts us and I'm reading it as affection.  I sound nuts.  I so want to sort this out though.

[Sirius Mum]

Speaking only as the mum of a nearly eleven week old cockerdile I think pups use biting in lots of ways and some are easier to understand than others. For example there's the classic ankle grab often happens in the garden when excited at being outside or an anticipated ball game. Then there's the bites which say "I'm loosing it cos I'm tired" and need some rest. You can see these ones in his eyes too. Then there's the affectionate nudge nibble nip when he's on my lap after a meal and play and wants to get even closer. Then there's the "ow Mum I'm teething "and I will chew anything even my own paws.

So I'm thinking your theory has something to it. In our case the biting isn't aggressive or guarding. It comes from over exuberance and an incredible drive to mouth something all the time. Saying no and turning away is just an invitation to bite my back. Yelping ow seems to mean come on this is fun do it again. I'm trying sit and rewards as a distraction and this will work but only if he's not too excited and it doesn't last long. He justs wants to be at the centre of our world. So I've resorted to popping him in his pen for a few minutes and then letting him out with a hug and off we go again all forgiven till the next time. It's just if I could work out why he's biting perhaps I could give a clearer consistent message to say Stop that's not the way.

At the end of the day I hang on to the belief that cockerdiles will grow up and become gentle cockers and we will love them all the way. Sooner or later he will work out what his Hooman is trying to say. 

[elaine.e]

Here's a cut and paste from a file from the facebook group Dog Training Advice & Support Group:

"Biting is a normal puppy behaviour. Puppies investigate the world through their mouths. If it is within reach, it will probably be picked up and chewed! If it is exciting and moves fast it will definitely get bitten. Dogs play by using their mouths because they don’t have hands. Puppies need to bite and they need to play. What he/she is doing is simply trying to elicit play. Play is by far the best way to bond with your pup and is a great way to reward him during training.

Use tug toys that he can bite. Old knotted towels or a favourite toy with string attached. Unwanted dressing gown cords are ideal. You need to encourage him to bite one end of the toy whilst you hold the other end. Then you can have a great game together without getting bitten.

Ensure your tug toys are long enough and soft enough for your puppy to happily bite. Your toy should touch the floor whilst you are holding the other end. This allows you to animate the toy and keep the game low to the ground and not encourage jumping up. It also puts distance between teeth and hands.

Keep these interactive toys out of your pups reach whilst they are not being played with. It will keep them more novel which means the pup is more likely to want to bite and play with them when given the opportunity. Plant toys around the house and garden (out of puppies reach) so you have them easily accessible and as much as possible, take the game outside.

Rotate chew items that you leave on the floor to also keep them interesting.

Do not play with your puppy unless you have a toy for him to grab. Don't let anyone in the house roughhouse with him or roll about on the floor with him.

Start by animating the toy on the floor and saying 'getit' every time your pup grabs the toy. You hold on to the toy and let him grab it and shake it. Let go of the toy sometimes so that puppy is encouraged to come back to you to get you to start the game again.

Also teach a word for letting go. To do this you simply stop the game by putting a finger in pup's collar and keeping hold of the toy, release the pressure on the toy so that it becomes boring. As soon as pup lets go say 'thank you' and immediately invite him to grab it again with a 'getit'. He will quickly learn to let go when you stop playing in order for the game to start again and eventually the word 'thankyou' (or your word of choice) will become his cue to let go.

Once your pup is getting the idea of the game then you can start to add in a 'sit' 'are you ready' before the 'getit' and before you know it you have a dog sitting and waiting patiently for the game to start."

I think the first paragraph is a really good explanation of puppy biting. He wants to play because he's a puppy, and sees your affection towards him as an invitation to play, which is very exciting for him and involves biting because that's just the way puppies play.

Good points by Sirius Mum too, as a puppy that is overtired or overstimulated will bite too.

[Murphys Law]

I understand exactly what you are saying. Murphy still likes to bite when you are showing him affection but now, at nearly ten months, he has very goog bite inhibition and is very gentle.

He does absolutely love some rough and tumble though. My twenty year old son will have a right ding dong with him and for a casual observer it might look quite serious. Murphy will jump in like a boxer, teeth bared, take a nip at you and then spring back before you can retaliate. He loves it but the second that you decide that the game is over he calms down.

I can't see any problem with that.

[theshrew]

He is still very young and that sounds pretty normal.

Its when they go for your toes when your watching tv and not expecting it that hurts the most 

Don't let him bite you give him a toy etc and have a few different toys so he can choose his fav like a soft one, rubber type and a rope.

[Redked]

Normal puppy behaviour as everyone else says. They just bite and some bite more than others (Bonnie being one of those as a pup  ). Then one day, it stops. They grow up and its just not interesting to bite anymore.

With regards the affection, I'd say that when pup is getting the affection its one big play time. They are enjoying it, they get excited and are having fun so they bite as that is natural to them at that age. What they don't know is that it isn't as much fun for you  It will get easier. Just keep doing what you are doing; time outs worked best for us. A LOT of time outs some days. As soon as the bites started, we left the room for a minute or so, returned and carried on playing as if nothing had happened. As soon as the teeth came out again, we repeated it. We were often out the room more than we were in but in the end it sank in (pardon the pun!). If she bit us, the play stopped. Good luck xxx

[tilytots]

Sammie was a constant 'nipper' for the first few months (she's 1 year old in two weeks) the nipping drove me insane and with two children I was beginning to be concerned .... But now the nipping is extremely rare but she loves a tummy rub and too much excitement plus cuddles can make her start to become nippy! Over excitement plays a big part! She has a 5 mile run most days and as soon as we say walkies she just gets so over excited then nipping can then start ( but a stern NO has began to make get realise she has to stop)..... So I completely see your point you are making .... Like I said the biteing is now extremely rare and Sam is a lovely beautiful happy cocker....

Good luck

[Joules]

Agree with the others, nipping is more to do with excitement than affection.  Although it may start when pup is giving or receiving affection, so both can be linked I guess 

Oh, and please never "rap him over the nose" for nipping.  If it gets too much, then just walk away from him until he calms down.  It will improve, but this is perfectly normal puppy behaviour.  If he is clamped on to you, then just distract him with a toy or something else that he can bite!

[moneypenny]

I'm no expert at all, but it might help to know that when we brought our puppy home I was distraught at her biting. I had bites all over my arms for a couple of months. I almost thought of taking her back. I'm sure she thought she was showing affection, but her teeth were razor sharp.
18 months on and she is fine. She never bites. All the family can put their fingers in her mouth at any times. I regularly take things out of her mouth, even her treasures, and have no problem.

I've not had a puppy from 8 weeks ever before so I assume it is just a puppy phase. I'd forgotten about it till I saw your post.

[Hellas mum]

Hi my dog Bella has just had her second birthday. I was also alarmed that she jumped jump and bit my clothes and I was worried I had brought home a mad dog. However after finding this forum I was relieved that this was normal behavior. I followed the advice and tried a few methods, the most successful, turning my back on her and leaving her on her own, going back a few mins later. Even now when she us very agitated the urge to bite is there, she will grab the nearest soft object instead such as a toy, cushion, slipper, sock etc as she has learned it is not acceptable to mouth humans

[April Shower]

Thanks for all the reassurance, we really need it.  When my elderly inlaws visit we can't let Archie near them and if we had young children we wouldn't be able to have them in the same room - he launches to about face height of a young child and stays clamped.   We are naturally concerned about this. Thanks for your words of experience, we'll keep doing what we're doing and don't worry, the 'rapping on the nose' comment was nothing more than a desperate thought whilst in great pain!

[Redked]

Thanks for all the reassurance, we really need it.  When my elderly inlaws visit we can't let Archie near them and if we had young children we wouldn't be able to have them in the same room - he launches to about face height of a young child and stays clamped.   We are naturally concerned about this. Thanks for your words of experience, we'll keep doing what we're doing and don't worry, the 'rapping on the nose' comment was nothing more than a desperate thought whilst in great pain!

We have a 4 yr old granddaughter and Bonnie's biting was so bad we had to keep her away. Whenever Evie stayed over or visited (several times a week) it was usually me and Evie upstairs or we went out whilst OH stayed down with Bonnie. We couldnt have them together. They are best friends now and cuddle each other constantly 

Bonnie also used to jump up and try to attack our faces, which I thought was an indication that something was very wrong with her. I seriously wanted to re home Bonnie as I thought we had a vicious dog. Honestly, even though its blooming hard to cope with now, you will end up with a soft, silly, cuddly and most loving doggie you could ever imagine. Try not to worry (hard I know) as your pup is just a normal cockerdile xxx

[Sirius Mum]

Hi I wondered how Archie was doing? I hope things are getting easier. I know sometimes it feels really hard but then surprisingly soon they do something incredibly cute and you forgive them the tough times and enjoy the good times.

It's clear that there are easier times ahead as these pups grow. I don't doubt you will soon be sharing Archie's triumphs and that the bitey puppy days will fade away. One day we too will be able to reach back to new puppy parents and offer reassurance that our pups grew into loving gentle well mannered cockers. ( hopefully with just a touch of nortying to keep us on our toes )      

[Vixter]

Hi All,

Have been reading all the posts as I also seem to have a very bitey puppy.  Although when she is calm and settled she is the most lovely puppy ever and likes nothing more than cuddles.  However, when over exited she seems to have a personality change and can turn into a little  .

I was starting to get really worried as at times she can really snarl and growl, and this often goes hand in hand with her hanging off my trouser legs.  I try to do a time out and walk out the room but can struggle to get to the door with her hanging off and me moving seems to make her worse.  There are perhaps some small signs its coming which I should be more aware of and then I can nip it in the bud, but I don't always see it.  Any advice?  I try to redirect onto a toy but in the thick of it she just isn't interested.

Its really good to hear that others have been through this, and come out the other side!

xxx

[cardiffbec]

This is all sounding very familiar. I haven't managed to stop Ralph from doing it but here's a few things that have helped:

Staying very calm at all times so he doesn't get too excited.

Avoid tug of war - this gets him very excited so I try to give him toys and leave him to play with them on his own when he's in an excitable mood. I will throw them for him if he drops them but won't get into a tugging battle.

take him for a walk - before mine was old enough to go out I would just walk around the block with him in my arms. All the new sights, sounds and smells really calmed him down and wore him out!

Hope that helps a bit