Resource Guarding

[Archie bean]

Spot on advice from Emilyoliver. Re-thinking my approach to retrieving objects from Archie by asking him to give them to me willingly, rather than me taking them from him was a really important step to getting his guarding under control. If he has something I can see he might guard, but that I don't want him to have, I stay very calm and keep my voice light. I will often tell him he's a good boy or a clever boy for finding whatever it might be and I then walk away. I call him to me (we have a phrase "fetch it for a biscuit"!) and he will bring it to me. Being completely non-confrontational with him is the key.

[hoover]

Hi, do you encourage him to bring you things?  All things?  and not take them away?  I've not had a resource guarder, however I very rarely approach my dogs and take things from them.  Instead I encourage them to bring me whatever it is that they have.  I say 'thank you' if I want what they have and they give it up, but most of the time if I take something from them I give it straight back.  so they very rarely feel like I am after them to get something from them.  as said I've not had a resource guarder, and all of my dogs will happily bring me high value objects (including bones) to show me as they get loads of praise and don't worry about me taking them away.  It is their decision to approach me and come in close rather than me entering their space to take anything from them.  May not help, but just my experience.

Thank you for this advice - we are going to put it in to practice more. He does get a huge amount of praise for returning a ball, and when he accidentally drops something we want we tell him he's a very clever boy and give him lots of pats...we know he didn't intend to do that, but as it is the result we want it's good for him to feel the positive associations with such an action.  His pride in doing something we are pleased about is very visible and we need to capitalise on that sentiment more regularly so he is set up to succeed rather than fail.

[JeffD]

Hi, do you encourage him to bring you things?  All things?  and not take them away?  I've not had a resource guarder, however I very rarely approach my dogs and take things from them.  Instead I encourage them to bring me whatever it is that they have.  I say 'thank you' if I want what they have and they give it up, but most of the time if I take something from them I give it straight back.  so they very rarely feel like I am after them to get something from them.  as said I've not had a resource guarder, and all of my dogs will happily bring me high value objects (including bones) to show me as they get loads of praise and don't worry about me taking them away.  It is their decision to approach me and come in close rather than me entering their space to take anything from them.  May not help, but just my experience.

just clicked the like button, also hold a hard treat like a paddywack and let the dog chew the other end teach the pup your hands are its best friend

[hoover]

I thought I would give an update on this situation.  Ollie is doing better in some respects because we aren't giving this particular bone and we have followed the advice in this thread and don't follow him for things but rather walk away to the 'treat corner' where he brings them anyway, drops them and receives a small treat.  It is making it a smaller deal..however when mistakes are made, for instance if my partner forgets that this might happen and reaches for a toy nearby Ollie to move it so that she can sit down he flares up in the same way. I guess it's a question of not forgetting, but naturally my concern is that WE both know this, but not everyone who comes into contact with him can be expected to..this really limits us and how we can leave Ollie with others.. the unpredictability of his reactions means I don't think we can leave him with anyone who doesn't know him well or children (although everything we have seen indicates he is brilliant with children)

This sudden reaction is happening in other areas too... we don't get much warning.  For example if we reach down to pick him up and he's not in the mood (although he's all loose, wiggly bum prior which would seem to indicate he's relaxed and happy)he might growl, bark and then bite all within a second - which is not enough for someone reaching for him to recognise that he is warning.  Normally I would know..I would see him tense, side eyes  and I would know to leave whatever it is for a second, distract him with something else and come back with a treat to re-attempt something.  But on these occasions with the prior wiggle bum and the sudden immediate escalation it's impossible to predict. 

I guess I'm just really worried about something like cocker rage.  Which I know is meant to be rarer nowadays, and isn't he, at 4.5 months, too young to be showing signs of this?  I thought it was something that occurred a little later in dogs.

He occasionally wears a 'clix no bark collar' when he is very vocal and today, when he reacted with very sudden aggression to being picked up, it vibrated on his bark and he backed down as he doesn't like the vibration setting.  This is the first time that this particular scenario has arisen and I am thinking he should wear this collar all the time now, just in case?  (Just to point out, he is generally (90% of time) fine with being picked up and I don't want to back away from this altogether as there might be times when this is necessary - for eg, when he was confronted by 14 chihuahuas recently)

[Murphys Law]

Don't worry about cocker rage, what you are seeing is nothing like that at all. I'm not best qualified to help you with your issues but I do know that it is not cocker rage.

[Patp]

Just wondering why the bark collar? Surely it will make him more reactive to situations in a negative way?

[elaine.e]

Just wondering why the bark collar? Surely it will make him more reactive to situations in a negative way?

I'm thinking the same. Anti bark devices don't fix the underlying problem of why a dog is barking. They may give a quick fix, but they're likely to cause the dog a huge amount of frustration because his method of communicating with the world has been stopped. Dogs bark for a reason, and if you can identify the trigger or triggers that start the barking you can then work out ways to stop or minimise the need for barking.

As an example, if it's because he becomes over excited when he's playing, learn to recognise the signs and stop the playing before he goes over the top and give him time to calm down. If he barks for attention in the house (I've had a couple do that when they were puppies) try totally ignoring him and just walk out of the room. No eye contact, no telling him off or speaking to him, just walk out until he stops barking. Come back in when he's stopped and carry on as normal. You can also praise him quietly every time he's quiet and settled in the house so he learns that being quiet and calm is rewarding. It's all too easy to ignore them when they're finally quiet and all we want to do is enjoy the peace! Take a few seconds to praise that quietness.

[elaine.e]

Please don't worry about rage. Yes, it exists (and in other breeds too) but it's extremely rare and your boy isn't showing any signs of it. He's a resource guarder, as you already know, and that's an entirely separate issue.

Back in the 1980s "Cocker Rage" was very high profile. My first Cocker, born in 1987, was a gold show type male, bought from a good breeder. When he was a puppy I had so many people come up to me and tell me that I shouldn't have bought him because he was male and golden and would have rage that I became really worried. He was a sweetheart as it happens and the worst you could say about him was that he was reluctant to give toys back and would walk away with them.

Back then, Cockers were already a breed of choice for puppy farmers and they seem to have been the principle source of badly bred Cockers with temperament problems, including some, typically red or golden and males, that had what came to be called Cocker Rage. A dog with rage will typically be asleep or resting and will then get up and attack without warning. Afterwards the dog will often appear dazed and bewildered and seemingly not to know what has happened.

It's extremely rare nowadays because it's largely been bred out of the breed. It's also thought that it may be similar to epilepsy because of the way it manifests itself and the dazed behaviour of the dog afterwards. The saddest thing is that many dogs have been mislabelled over the years by owners, vets and behaviourists and have been put down when in fact they had behavioural problems that could probably have been sorted out.

http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/rage_syndrome.htm

[bizzylizzy]

Thanks Elaine - Humphrey has also starting the barking for attention or because he wants his dinner. It starts as a little wine and the tone goes up and down and then develops into a bark, which is actually quite funny as it seems he's really trying to talk. I just took him into the hall yesterday and closed the door and he gave up quite quickly. When he was quiet, I fed him.
 

Spot on advice from Emilyoliver. Re-thinking my approach to retrieving objects from Archie by asking him to give them to me willingly, rather than me taking them from him was a really important step to getting his guarding under control. If he has something I can see he might guard, but that I don't want him to have, I stay very calm and keep my voice light. I will often tell him he's a good boy or a clever boy for finding whatever it might be and I then walk away. I call him to me (we have a phrase "fetch it for a biscuit"!) and he will bring it to me. Being completely non-confrontational with him is the key.

Also found that very helpful - I've also made the mistake of just taking things off him and now he's started to run off, which, from his point of view, is logical!! (OH reckons I'm becoming addicted to this site, but its just SO helpful, I love it!  )
 

[hoover]

Just wondering why the bark collar? Surely it will make him more reactive to situations in a negative way?

I'm thinking the same. Anti bark devices don't fix the underlying problem of why a dog is barking. They may give a quick fix, but they're likely to cause the dog a huge amount of frustration because his method of communicating with the world has been stopped. Dogs bark for a reason, and if you can identify the trigger or triggers that start the barking you can then work out ways to stop or minimise the need for barking.

As an example, if it's because he becomes over excited when he's playing, learn to recognise the signs and stop the playing before he goes over the top and give him time to calm down. If he barks for attention in the house (I've had a couple do that when they were puppies) try totally ignoring him and just walk out of the room. No eye contact, no telling him off or speaking to him, just walk out until he stops barking. Come back in when he's stopped and carry on as normal. You can also praise him quietly every time he's quiet and settled in the house so he learns that being quiet and calm is rewarding. It's all too easy to ignore them when they're finally quiet and all we want to do is enjoy the peace! Take a few seconds to praise that quietness.

We do all the above but sometimes nothing works.  He is a puppy that can quite happily bark to himself and increase the barking when he is ignored (and no other cause apparent such as thirst, discomfort, toileting requirements).  We have occasional 35 minute car journeys where he can spend 30 minutes barking and being ignored and then the remainder 5 minutes collapsed in a sleepy heap out of exhaustion at his own barking! He is simply very vocal and has an entire repertoire that we can recognise now (there is the 'I'm wet and want to be immediately dry' warble which is especially interesting.)  We use the anti bark collar on occasion out of consideration for neighbours who have complained and to be honest, it works.  He gets praise when he's quiet and playing nicely with his toys, but that also sometimes stuns him / interrupts him out of the good behaviour that he is doing and so he starts another activity which is more destructive / louder! 

Quite frankly if it is a tool that I can use to help him from starting aggressively on people, I'm going to use it.  For them, and for him. Last night his flash-quick 'grr-bark-bite' response was interrupted before it got to the bite stage.  That's a good result for us all, and hopefully it will stop this unpredictable response from becoming a repertoire in his behaviour. I can't have this flash quick unpredictable response and create an unsafe environment for us all.

I'm really glad to hear people don't think it sounds like rage!

[Murphys Law]

If you look on You Tube there is a very good video by Zak George on humanely stopping a dog from nuisance barking. I'm on my phone so can't find a way to link it but it comes up if you search Zak George barking.

[Ben's mum]

I agree with the others, anti bark collars are just not the way to go and can potentially cause a lifetime of fear based problems.  He is still a puppy and I would be amazed if he was being aggressive, cockers can be noisy, grumbly and vocal, and he is still so young and learning, it's a great time for teaching how you want him to behave.

Obviously on a forum we can all give advice, but can't really know what is happening so if you are really worried it might be good to call in a behaviourist who uses reward based methods for advice and tips about how to manage the situation.
 

[hoover]

It's not an electric shock collar that he has, it's a sound / vibration based one. It doesn't bother him much but it does startle him /interrupt him.  The vibrating setting startled him into stopping the escalation from grr to bark to bite (and like I say, it is quick, his jaws were closing around my wrist when he backed down although his teeth had not made contact.)  It stopped the bloodshed, and it might have helped prevent this particular behaviour becoming part of his repertoire through repeatedly practising the aggressive action...it's hard to feel sorry about that.

I get that it's a negative association, but I would ask anyone here to say they have never said 'NO!' to their dogs, or perhaps pushed down a dog that was jumping up, or pulled off their dog if it was being too boisterous with another or asked a dog to leave something he would rather be eating...these are all negative associations for the dog who doesn't want to be told NO, doesn't want to be back on the ground when he would rather have his paws on your shoulders, doesn't want to be stuck standing next to you with your hand on his collar rather than humping the cowering dog in the park, doesn't want to have to empty his mouth of the precious dead squirrel he has found.. but at times they are appropriate to help stop an unwanted behaviour.

[Karma]

I'd recommend you read the pinned post at the top of this section - it clearly explains why aversive training can potentially backfire.

Additionally, it's not really a great idea to stop the growl/bark without addressing the cause - if the cause isn't resolved, the dog is still getting stressed, but does not feel able to express that stress.  In the best case scenario, that is as far as it goes... in the worst case scenario, something happens to push them over the edge, and they end up biting without warning. 

[hoover]

I'd recommend you read the pinned post at the top of this section - it clearly explains why aversive training can potentially backfire.

Additionally, it's not really a great idea to stop the growl/bark without addressing the cause - if the cause isn't resolved, the dog is still getting stressed, but does not feel able to express that stress.  In the best case scenario, that is as far as it goes... in the worst case scenario, something happens to push them over the edge, and they end up biting without warning. 

At the moment this particular behaviour is without warning, the grr-bark-bite response is so fast that there is no time to avoid the end stage - the vibration of the collar reacts more quickly than we can to move our hand away.  (And yes, this behaviour started before using the collar) As I've said, this isn't the norm, normally I know exactly when Ollie is uncomfortable.. I can see him stand or lie stiffly, he looks at you in a certain way and so I pretend to be busy with something else, call him to me to sit for a treat, almost 'reset him' in a way and then he's absolutely fine after that.  These other scenarios are much rarer and unpredictable and a causal chain of events is not so easy to see (he hasn't had anything like this since Tuesday).

I really don't think the collar is doing him any harm, he's a confident, dominant dog (we realised we had taken home the alpha pup 2 days after we got him - he was almost identical in appearance to a more middling pup we had intended on taking home apart from being a bit bigger and having a very slighty different small white marking on his chest -he's a solid black).  He's not anxious or fearful in any way and this is like a fly buzzing to him..it distracts him out of the agression response and I think that's a good thing, just as it helps a toddler to be distracted out of throwing a tantrum.  I know I'm not going to convince everyone of that but I have his best interests and all of our best interests in my mind at all times and I think through scenarios carefully.  If ever I am more seriously concerned I will look into getting a reputable dog beaviourist in. Since Tuesday we've had a wonderful couple of cuddly days with him.