Ian Dunbar Toilet Training?

[honeysmummy]

Hello!

I'm new to these parts.

I've got a beautiful 9 week old orange roan girl who's been with us for a week now.

I'm home 24/7 so I'm trying to do as much as I can from the Ian Dunbar methods.

At the moment I am following the crate training during the day plan where you let them out on the hour for three minutes and if hey go then 10/15 mins play and then back into the crate with food inside a kong and out again after another 50 mins or so.

This is fine and she is doing well in her crate. She occasionally has a little cry but mostly she likes her crate and she sleeps in there at night without any moans.

My query is, and I can't find anything on the internet about this, how long is this process supposed to be? It seems like it can't be great for the dog as they get older and the need to sleep is lessened and the need to wee and poo less frequent too.

I'm really confused and I'm hoping I'm going about this all the right way.

Has anyone done this method? Can anyone give me any advice? I'm not using a play pen with her because I'm here with her so she is in her crate with no room for accidents.

Additional info: she sleeps 10.00-6 with a 2am toilet trip and has only had one night of a wet bed at 2am so she's getting there for night time routine.

Thanks for any advice!!

[EmmaRose]

Hello and Welcome to COL 

I have heard of Ian Dunbar but haven't read anything of his so can't offer any advice on this - maybe someone will be along who has.

Do you mean your puppy is in her crate during the day and only comes out for the toilet, gets to play if she goes to the toilet and then goes back into her crate until the next hour??

[Mudmagnets]

That's how I understood the post, but thought & hoped I must be wrong, seems an extraordinary way to treat a pup   

[twiceover2]

I haven't heard of this method either but would worry if she spending three-quarters if every hour in her crate. I crate trained my first two puppies but only used the crate when I couldn't supervise them- popping out, getting showered etc. Otherwise they were in the room with me. What's the thinking behind the training?

[honeysmummy]

Hi,

See below for Ian Dunbar's training guide for if you are at home 24/7:

***Whenever you’re at home, keep your puppy closely confined to a dog crate, or on leash tied to your belt or an eye-hook in the baseboard. Make sure your puppy has a stuffed Kong in the crate, or within reach when on leash. Maybe tie the Kong to the dog’s end of the leash or to the eyehook, so that it doesn’t roll out of reach.

Most people simply do not understand the principle behind close confinement and think that a dog crate is a place to leave puppies for hours on end. Others think that a crate is a cruel prison. Confinement procedures are only temporary and need not be cruel at all. Once your puppy is housetrained, he may have full run of your house for life.

And so, when you are at home, confine your puppy to a crate and every hour on the hour, take your puppy to his toilet area.

Open the crate door, snap on the puppy’s leash (so your pup doesn’t get distracted run off), quickly walk to the toilet area and then:

Say, “Go pee and poop”
Stand still and wait
As soon as your puppy starts to pee and/or poop
Praise profusely as if your puppy has accomplished a most wonderful and amazing feat. As a rule of thumb, give three treats for a good pee, five treats for a poop and maybe a bonus treat for doing either quickly.
Now, go back indoors and have fun training and playing with your gloriously empty puppy for five or ten minutes before putting him back in his crate with a stuffed Kong for 50 minutes. Then repeat the procedure every hour on the hour that you are home. If your puppy does not eliminate when you take him to the toilet, put him back in the crate with a stuffed Kong and try again every 30 minutes. In no time at all, your puppy will be peeing and pooping at the drop of a hat.***

This is what I am following. Are you all saying I'm doing the wrong thing? At this age puppies sleep around 19 hours per day also so usually she has her Kong with her kibble in, chomps on it in her crate and falls back to sleep.

I'm hoping someone will have done this exact method so that I have some advice to go on. It's an unusual situation to have someone at home all he time when a pup is so small I seem to find when I've been looking for help and advice on different forums.

[bizzylizzy]

From what I've read on the internet, this seems to be quite common practice in the United States. Its an individual decision and although I recognise the thinking behind it, its not something I'd endorse as I don't think it has any great advantage over the conventional way and I wouldn't want to keep a puppy that confined. We used a crate at night and for emergencies but the rest of the time just kept an eye on him and went outside regularly, (still use the commands though, its good practice). You're going to have to get used to keeping an eye on your pup for a long time after toilet training is over anyway, - if I'm busy in the kitchen then the lounge door stays shut. Yes,,there will be accidents and the carpet will probably get weed on occasionally but if you have a spaniel you have to be prepared for a bit of a mess now and again  . I think, the more your dog is with you in the earl stages, the better he'll bond with huge, which makes all other training much easier.
Both my husband and I are at home full time now by the way!

[twiceover2]

All I can say is it just sounds wrong to me.  I work from home so have also been at home 24/7 with puppies and with rescue dogs that have needed to be house-trained.  It seems an extraordinary length to go to to train something which most dogs pick up fairly quickly anyway.  Mine were always just in the same room as me as they need supervision at that age to stop them getting into other sorts of mischief too.  I took them out every 1-2 hours.  If they had an accident, it was no big deal - I just cleaned it up. 

I would think it's more important for your puppy in her early years to be getting as much experience of the world as possible and, as bizzylizzy says, she needs to be with you, playing/training with you, bonding with you, even if it is just sitting on your lap or lying at your feet. 

The method is basically using a crate and a kong as a dull babysitter.  I would rather be the one babysitting my puppy.

[dawn]

Yep, totally agree with twiceover2. I used Henry's crate overnight and when I was exhausted! About an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon.

The rest of the time was play time, mental stimulation, training, short walks etc. We went out every hour, at least, for,toilet training. It was spring when H was a pup, so he was in the garden all the time.

I did try and use an Ian Dunbar book and found it very stressful to meet his expectations! Cocker spaniels pups don't often fit in with conventional training! They are a little too crazy and hyper they made me very worried I was doing it all wrong, when in fact H has turned out to be a happy outgoing fun dog.

[wendall]

I agree with the other comments. Also, how many stuffed kings do you get through?!!

[PollySpaull]

I agree with twiceover. It just sounds wrong. If you are lucky enough to be home all the time with your pup, then I see no reason that she should be confined to her crate all day. You can still take her out every hour but let her explore, play and just be around you. Cockers crave attention and I worry that keeping her shut away could cause problems later down the line.

[PollySpaull]

Also she must be consuming a heck of a lot of food from her kongs if she gets one every hour!?!

[honeysmummy]

Please don't be judgemental of me. If I follow a book which is highly rated and seems to be well respected, I hope I'm doing the right thing for my pup.

Let me be clear, she is happy in her crate and settles immediately in there.

The majority of her food for the day is consumed in her little Kong and she tends to chew until she falls asleep.

There's 101 ways to toilet train and I thought by picking the person most people rave about, I was doing the right thing.

Most people on here seem to approve of bite inhibition training from the same guy so I'm surprised at the level of disapproval of his toilet training.

I'm none the wiser to be honest.

I'm hoping someone will have done this method and can advise me with their experience.

I'm also consulting with a reputable trainer tomorrow so maybe I'll get more info there.

Thanks anyway.

[Mudmagnets]

Maybe a good idea to contact the man himself, if you are unsure of what you should be doing. Ian Dunbar has a facebook page and probably an email address too. Does it not say in the guidance info, if there is any.

Personally I have not heard of this method, & don't think you will find many on here who have I may be wrong though,  but I would not use it if I had - no matter who advised it.

Sorry I can't be more help.

[twiceover2]

I'm certainly not judging you.  We all hope to do the right things for our dogs.  I don't know about most people raving about Ian Dunbar and I don't know if most people on here approve of his bite inhibition training either.  I had a quick look at his method and it was something we tried but I have to say that didn't work for us either as saying "ouch" or similar made our dogs more excited and bitey.  We found it worked better just to walk away and ignore them.  They learned bite inhibition better from playing with each other and getting a telling off from our other puppies/adult dogs when they went too far.

There are lots of ways to do things and it's about finding what works for you and your puppy and what you are comfortable with.  I wouldn't slavishly follow one trainer but would pick and choose from all the advice and methods out there.  I have also found that there is a lot of brilliant advice on this forum from people who have cocker spaniels and know their characteristics.  My main concern with the crate method is that cocker spaniels, more than other dogs, need to be with their person.  The method might suit more independent dogs but I would worry that it would be distressing for a cocker spaniel puppy.  Just my opinion though.

I hope you find someone who can give you the answers you are looking for and hopefully you won't have to use the crate method too long because, as you say, it can't be great for the dog as it gets older.

[Jane S]

Please don't be judgemental of me. If I follow a book which is highly rated and seems to be well respected, I hope I'm doing the right thing for my pup.

As you're finding out, there are lots of different ways of toilet training and there are also lots of trainers and behaviourists who have produced books on puppy training. Dr Dunbar is highly respected & yes there is lots of useful info in what he says but as with all trainers, you don't have to take every word as "gospel" which must be adhered to at all costs - you can take what works for you & leave the rest & also read other opinions too. Of course you want to do what's best for your pup and no-one is judging you for trying this method, just expressing concern that it means your pup is spending an awful lot of time in a crate. I wonder if this method is only meant to be used for a very short period of time (because toilet training will proceed quickly using this method) Dr Dunbar does say in the quote you posted that people can misuse crates and use them to leave pups in for long periods so he is not advocating crate confinement for long periods, just as a temporary measure. I'm not sure you will get a personal reply if you contact Dr Dunbar (he probably has staff running his FB page) but certainly it is worth having a go as I'm sure you can't be the first owner to have this question about his particular method of toilet training.