Author Topic: Worried: Aggression, dominance?  (Read 3884 times)

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Offline happydog

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2006, 01:10:46 PM »
Personally I would take no notice of the growling, act like nothing has happened! If there are areas where he is clearly not happy with what you are doing, I would from this point forward make them rewarding. Before you pick him up give him a treat, then give him another when you put him down - it is better that you teach him that it is a good thing to be picked up, than wait for him to get it wrong and feel the need to chastise him ;)
Over excited puppies who run around biting and growling and chasing any thing that moves are completely normal, it is not exclusive to cockers. Quite simply ignore it, leave the garden your self, or wherever he does it, by you being calm you will teach him to be calm, impersonate a lampost until he calms down! :005:
You have to forget the whole 'dominance' theory, it will only make you anxious. Just be calm and kind and consistent. He is such a baby who is finding out how the world works by using the equipment he was born with, it is up to you to teach him what is good using positive, kind, calm,  methods. Agressive dogs are not born, they are made ;)
Well said Bluebell  :D.
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Offline scooby's mum

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2006, 04:57:09 PM »
Hiya Simon

Sounds just like Scooby as a pup  :lol:  All you have described, I would say, is normal behavour.

Scooby was a very dominant pup, the trainer pointed that out straight away - she picked him up and he was really struggling and "mouthing" her hand, although he never growled. 

He did start the "growling" however, when he was about 7 or 8 months, like you, it really shocked me initially.  He growls whenever he's playing, or if he's being grumpy and doesn't want disturbing.  The breeder said cockers shouldn't do this, however, so like you I was a little worried but can now recognise what the growls mean - I think it's just his way of communicating, although I am always on my guard with children around  ;)  Scooby always growls if you try and lift him off the sofa so we tend to tempt him off with a treat.

With regards the "hanging on the bottom of your trousers", Scooby did this all the time and it drove us mad.  Just keep removing him and saying a firm "no". 

Scooby was toilet trained by about 16 weeks but every so often would just wee in the lounge, I was a little soft with him I think and when he did this I just lifted him outside without any vocal reprimanding.  However, after speaking to a friend of my sisters, who has bred and shown dogs for years, she advised me to say a firm "no" and tap him on the nose.  I know you shouldn't do this, and I haven't done it since, but I was that fed up that I did it and he never did a wee inside again.

Sounds like you've got a dominant pup on your hands so just be very firm and consistent with him and, like the others have said, ignore the growling - have fun  ;)

Edited to say:  just read this back and it sounds like I'm advising you to tap your dog on the nose - I'm not, I'm just sharing my experience with you (I still feel guilty about it now  ph34r)

Love Joanne, Misty & Scooby

Offline Poppy W

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2006, 06:11:47 PM »
Think you just have a pretty normal cocker pup on your hands!!!

I think most of us can sympathise with the trouser tug of war game!!! Its great fun for pups...but a bit of a nightmare for their owners. Luckily, if you are firm with your NO it doesn't last that long.

As for biting and growling. Pups playbite, that's all there is to it. Its up to you to educate your little one and make sure he doesn't take what he thinks is 'fun' too far. And they hate to be disturbed when they are settled. Percy (who is now 7 months) still grumbles and growls if we try to move him off the sofa etc. when he's sleeping. The result...we shove him off immediately. We don't reward his grumbles by letting him stay where he wants!

Its all a bit strange when you first get a pup and you are never sure what is normal and if you are doing the right thing. The good thing is that you have found COL and can always ask for advice. We've all been through it...and we all still ask questions!!!!

Offline scooby's mum

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2006, 06:48:34 PM »

Its all a bit strange when you first get a pup and you are never sure what is normal and if you are doing the right thing. The good thing is that you have found COL and can always ask for advice. We've all been through it...and we all still ask questions!!!!


Well said Poppy, couldn't agree more  :D
Love Joanne, Misty & Scooby

Offline CraftySam

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2006, 07:22:45 PM »
Ah a man after my own heart!  :005:

I too have worried about all the things you've mentioned. I found when Barney was really young he would grumble a bit when he was tired and you wanted him to move or go out for a wee. That soon passed.

I was going to mention food too. We had a similar problem with our lab as a pup, and when we changed her on to something more natural it did help, though don't expect a mircle and for it to stop altogether!  ;)

With regards the trouser legs excited behaviour, Barney does something similar. Fortunately my trouser leg is spared as Barney takes it out on Max's leg. Barney gets mega excited when anyone comes to visit particularly if he's outside when they arrive. He will run around growling and carrying on then he will start attacking Max's leg. It sounds absolutely dreadful and I was mortified when it started. My dog trainer friend came to see what he was doing after I was being very alarmed by it. It is just Barney getting excited.  It did start to decrease but since his adolescent behaviour has started he's started doing it again.  ::)

Just you wait until he's 7 months old. Barney had me in tears twice last week with his behaviour.  ph34r
Sam is mum to - Sapphi (working black Lab 5 1/2 yrs), Max (Golden Retriever 4 yrs) Morgan (American Cocker 2 1/2yrs) and mum in spirit to Barney (English Cocker 3 1/2 yrs now living in Scotland)

Offline Simon

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2006, 07:47:24 PM »
Thanks for all your advice everyone.

I am finding the 'lamp post' technique very helpful!! It honestly works very very well. Also, distracting with toys (when one is within reach), but the most important thing is that I can see his mad half hours coming on now, and leave him to his toys. I am not too worried about the growling now, I did feel I was going over the top, but it was a real surprise at his age to hear it.

One quick question: What age is it best they should start climbing stairs? Tommy managed to get half-way up the stairs today when I went to the toilet, then knowing he wouldn't be happy for me to pick him up (probably due to fear more than aggression, of course), I tempted him up the last few steps with a treat. Now, I don't let him out of my sight all day, so I am not letting him go up the stairs by himself, but do you think it's safe even with supervision at his age? He can't climb down, yet he managed to get down two of the bottom steps, but it was hard work! I can't see him stopping now, so is it worth teaching him to climb up and down the stairs properly, or another option, buy a stair/baby gate?

Thanks.

Oh by the way, just got time to upload some photo's. Here he is the little  >:D and  :angel: all in one!




Offline PennyB

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2006, 07:58:47 PM »
but the most important thing is that I can see his mad half hours coming on now, and leave him to his toys. I am not too worried about the growling now, I did feel I was going over the top, but it was a real surprise at his age to hear it.


I had a staffy cross foster pup who had these mad half hours and if you were in the thick of it they were a real pain in the a**, and very painful but if you just stood back and let him get on with it they were quite fun to watch (even if it did involve rearranging bits of the sitting room) --- he used to have them at roughly same time every night so I used to just go and make my tea then and then tiday up the mess afterwards.
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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2006, 08:26:12 PM »
Buy a stair gate....

Growling isn't necessarily aggressive - in cockers it is definitely "talking" as well.... :D

Offline PennyB

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2006, 08:59:36 PM »
Growling isn't necessarily aggressive - in cockers it is definitely "talking" as well.... :D

My two are real growly talkers ::)
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Offline Bluebell

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2006, 07:46:28 AM »
Glad you are feeling happier and more in control of the situation :D Definitely buy a stair gate!!! My little pup Lillie has a chatty growl too - More of a 'grrooooo' than a 'grrrrrr'!! :005:
He looks like a lovely little chap :luv:

Offline CarolineL

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2006, 10:18:46 AM »
Growling isn't necessarily aggressive - in cockers it is definitely "talking" as well.... :D

My two are real growly talkers ::)

I wouldnt worry about the growling or the ankle biting this is just normal puppy behaviour. Some dogs like being picked up either for a cuddle or to be moved elsewhere - others hate it. Hurley is definately a bit of a growler. He has never liked being picked up (even as a puppy) and would let me know by growling at me or wriggling desperately so that he could be put down. He's now about 8 months and that hasnt changed at all - I just avoid picking him up. If he ever needed to be picked up to to go the vets or to be bought downstairs whenever he'd managed to sneak up there I would try and do it quickly and without fuss.

Get a stairgate to go across the stairs its not advisable to let puppies climb up and down stairs as its bad for their joints - we put a stairgate across too and problem solved.

Hope that helps

Cx
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Offline DennyK

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2006, 02:01:25 PM »
Simon

I'd also suggest that you read a fantastic book called "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson.  Lots of people on here recommended it when I first joined COL (Paddy will be one next week - whhoooo hoooo) but I didn't get it till he was about 8 months old and I really really wished I'd read it in conjunction with Gwen Bailey's book "The Perfect Puppy".  Gwen's book is really good, but I was never comfortable with the dominance theory stuff in it and quite a few knowledgeable posters on here were dismissive of dominance theory.  Once I read The Culture Clash - it completely de-bunked dominance theory and explains so many of your dog's behaviours and how to modify them in a positive and effective way. 

The growling you described sounds like it fits into different categories - the "play growling" - just having fun in that mad half hour, or when playing tug - and the "leave me alone, I'm not impressed/happy" growling when picked up/moved from the sofa.  That's "warning" behaviour and Jean Donaldson explains clearly how to desensitise your puppy so he/she is happy/relaxed about obeying you, being handled etc.  But it also gave me huge insight about where I should draw the line with other people's and other dogs' interactions with Paddy - he shouldn't be expected to "just take it" if approached aggressively (in his eyes), and it's my job to provide a safe space for him and to teach him what's OK behaviours and good manners.

Do hope you read it!

Denise

Offline Simon

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Re: Worried: Aggression, dominance?
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2006, 04:12:40 PM »
Very interesting Denise, I'll check it out. I must admit so many people on here have mentioned "The Perfect Puppy", and to a lesser extent I've seen "The Culture Clash", there must be something good in there! Can't wait to give them a read. Thanks!