Met breeder, pups and Mum

[Heidi]

Myself and OH called down to see the pups today and pick one out. They won't be ready for another 2 weeks (24th August) but I wanted to pick one out and reassure myself about their surroundings, mother etc. The breeder is definitely a commercial breeder, with a good few springer spaniels and cocker spaniels. However, both the surroundings and dogs were well-cared for and all the dogs were happy and boisterous.

The mother of the pups was nice and healthy looking (beautiful clear eyes - I wanted to bring her home as well!!). She was also really happy and friendly with both myself and the owner and his wife - giving us the paw etc. The pups were fairly shy - perhaps a result of not being inside with humans all the time? But they seemed curious enough about myself and OH so were maybe just a bit wary of us newcomers. To be honest I can't imagine any other breeder having dogs that were any healthier or happier than the ones I saw this evening.

Anyway, my fears about the breeder have been allayed and I can now truly start planning for the arrival of Heidi on the 24th!

Thanks to all the posters on the commercial breeder post - it really geared me up for checking out where our puppy was coming from.

[Cob-Web]

While it is good that you are reassured - I'm not sure I would be at all happy tbh; commercial breeders are exploiting animals for their own financial gain, after all

More important though, did you see any form of certificates relating to health screening of the sire and dam?  Just because the dam has clear eyes doesn't mean she isn't a carrier of PRA, and if the sire is as well, then the pups could go blind early in life 

If the puppies are kennelled, and don't spend much time inside, then you may find it harder to settle your pup at home with everyday noises like the washing machine; Molo and his litter were born and brought up in a corner the breeders kitchen, so he curled up and went to sleep when he heard the spin cycle of our machine for the first time     I think any pup would prefer to be one of the family, especially as their litter mates leave, rather than being housed in kennels outside  Molo was the last pup to go, and he spent a week curled up on the sofa every evening with the breeder and her hubby 

[Alpha]

 

While it is good that you are reassured - I'm not sure I would be at all happy tbh; commercial breeders are exploiting animals for their own financial gain, after all

So what about buying from people who have won more FT than you can shake a stick at. They are commercial breeders and have done an immense amount for both breeds, cockers and springers? Rytek and Chyknell are probably two of the most famous prefixes out there.

Heidi I would try not too worry too much if they ran a poll on here and everyone was honest I am sure that the % of people who did every single check you are supposed to do would be quite low.
I'm sure she will settle quite quickly, cocker puppies are amazingly quick and love a cuddle.
I'm sure your Irish lilt will sooth her, she will be unsettled at first its a big change for her she will be pining for her mum and littermates
But if you look back at some of the old threads you should find everything you need to make sure her first few days and nights arr as loving and reassuring as you can make them.
I hope she brings you great joy.

[Nicola]

While I wouldn't recommend buying from a commercial breeder I wouldn't worry too much about the pups being kept in a kennel as long as they receive adequate attention and socialisation with people. Rodaidh was kennelled at my gundog trainer's place (he bred him) until I got him at 6 months and he is absolutely fine, he took to living in the house like a duck to water and we've had no problems at all on that score. In fact he's the only one of my 3 who is not scared of the hoover 

I wouldn't really call them I don't think they churn dogs out for the money. They breed good quality, true to type, trainable cockers with sound temperaments and good pedigrees (FTCh Chyknell Gold Star is Rodaidh's granddad). I'm not as familiar with the springers although of course I know of the Rytex lines. 

[Tasha]

I'd like to see a commercial breeder with the Field Trial record of the Openshaws!! Or selling a puppy to the royal household

Theyare not typical commercial breeders they have a waiting list as long as your arm for a puppy very similar to the best of the show kennels except these are excellent proven working stock... whilst the working community are slow to take up testing this is something that is slowly happening with younger breeders.  You can't fault their record for their wins can you and that makes them popular.   If you look on their website they have four FT champion stud dogs and NO DOGS FOR SALE.  You'll never find that with a commercial breeder.

If your happy with your commercial breeder then fair enough but to be honest unlike the best of the show and the working kennels who are breeding their stock with a mind to achieving something special and have a good history of doing so a commercial breeder is only interested in one thing... your money.  Ask to see the dogs health certificates and read up a little bit on the sort of puppy to choose, cockers should not be shy they are a gundog breed and should be curious to differing levels. 

At the end of the day you can get more for your money from a reputable breeder from either the show or the working community but the choice has to be yours.

[Alpha]

i have actually had two dogs off Wendy...and they do advertise litters on the website when they have them they had a litter on their in February when i was looking for Lilly. The only reason i ended up with Lilly is because when I called they were both in the States and didn't return my call until I had been too see her.
I would be the last person in the world to knock either of them, as they let me have my beloved Badger....i was trying to get across the fact that not all commercial breeders are the spawn of the devil some of them are the best people you could possibly buy from.   
So does that mean I'm posh now then if as me and Madge buy from the same breeder.

[Nicola]

So does that mean I'm posh now then if as me and Madge buy from the same breeder.

It'll take more than that love 

[Alpha]

Darling I'm from Cheshire it doesn't get more than that, one has stayed with the Laird Of Borthwick don't you know.   

[Cob-Web]

While it is good that you are reassured - I'm not sure I would be at all happy tbh; commercial breeders are exploiting animals for their own financial gain, after all

So what about buying from people like Ian and Wendy Openshaw etc...who have won more FT than you can shake a stick at. They are commercial breeders and have done an immense amount for both breeds, cockers and springers? Rytek and Chyknell are probably two of the most famous prefixes out there.

That depends on your definition of Commercial Breeding really - as you will see from my comments on the other thread about this, I would not consider someone who is breeding to improve the breed as commercial breeders, as they are not the churning out of puppies for the pet market with no consideration for genetics etc 

Whether or not it is responsible breeding though, is another issue  I would prefer to see working line dogs (especially proven working lines) only bred for true working homes; there really are not enough suitable pet homes for these special dogs 

[emilyjw]

Hi Heidi,

Glad you were happy with what you found. Sounds like the mum had a nice temprement and with continued socialisation you will have a happy well adjusted pup.

As long as all the health checks are fine, you are happy with the breeders pedigree etc.

Good luck with your little girl. My first cat was called Heidi as she was always hiding (not my idea though  )

Em x

[Gilly]

I have had to edit nearly every one of these replies as some of you have mentioned a breeder by name!!! PLEASE do not mention individual breeder my name especially when you are tagging the words "commercial breeder" next to it, this is a PUBLIC forum that can be read anytime by the very people you are talking about.

Back to the topic and the question, Heidi are you buying a Working Cocker or a Show Type? and do you know the difference? from what you have described it sounds like Working Cockers which is fine if that is what you have set out to find, them being kenneled is fine too but regardless of the strain I still think you should be asking for evidence of some form of health testing.

[Heidi]

Goodness! Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "commercial breeder"?! I don't know - the dogs all seemed happy and healthy to me when I saw them and a happy dog and mummy is always a good sign where I'm concerned.

Perhaps there are some dodgy commercial larger-scale breeders out there, but the conditions the dogs I saw yesterday were kept in were fine.

As for the health, I asked all about eye problems, as one of the cockers we had when I was a kid went blind as a result of genetic eye illness. All was clear on that front. I know I should have enquired about kidney problems as well.

Is a healthy and happy puppy that was born and kept in a kennel really that worse than a puppy that was born and kept in a house?

Edited to add: I should also say that the litter I saw yesterday was the only litter of cocker spaniel pups the breeder has at the minute. He only breeds a couple of litters of either cockers or springers each year, which at least shows that he's not that interested in making huge profits out of either breed. Like I said above, perhaps some posters have come across/ heard of unscrupulous larger-scale breeders, but just like all smaller-scale breeders don't carry out genetic testing on their breeding dogs to ensure the betterment of the breed, neither do all larger-scale breeders all run their dogs into the ground churning out puppies for profit.

[emilyjw]

Hi Heidi,

Did the breeder show you the clear eye certificates for the Dam and Sire? This is something that can develop when the dog is older which is why breeders are moving towards the Optigen tests.

Like I said before if you are happy that is the main thing. Out of interest are they working or show cockers and are they KC registered?

Em

[Jane S]

As for the health, I asked all about eye problems, as one of the cockers we had when I was a kid went blind as a result of genetic eye illness. All was clear on that front. I know I should have enquired about kidney problems as well.

Unless both parents have been Optigen DNA tested for PRA with certificates to prove it, the breeder cannot possibly tell you that the eyes are clear with no problems. Please don't assume that because a breeder tells you there are no problems, that this is the truth - they may believe it themselves but unless they are DNA testing, they cannot possibly know. If you are talking about Working Cockers, then FN (kidney) testing is probably not relevant as FN does not appear to have been recorded in Working lines but PRA definitely has.

[Cob-Web]

Is a healthy and happy puppy that was born and kept in a kennel really that worse than a puppy that was born and kept in a house?

If they are happy, healthy and well socialised, then probably not - but it takes great commitment on the part of a breeder to ensure that puppies housed outside are used to domestic noises and hussle and bustle 

Sadly, I do not think that you have found a reputable breeder, who is committed to the future of the breed; why does he breed his dogs every year? How does he chose the sires? Is he a member of a breed club? Does he show/work his dogs? If not, how can he know if they are good examples of the breed?

It sounds as if you have found someone who is breeding puppies for the pet market, and no matter how "nice" the conditions are for the dogs, this type of breeding can lead to health problems, temerament problems and contributes to the 000's of unwanted dogs every year