Met breeder, pups and Mum

[Joules]

Coco was housed outside before I got her and you could not meet a better socialised pup than she became.  She had been handled and played with by the breeder and her kids but she lived outside in a kennel with her mum and littermates so most of her socialisation happened once she came home - I really did not expect the breeder to get her used to all the usual domestic noises she would come across when she left.  I have yet to find anything that fazes her so imo being kept in a house and socialised in the first 8 weeks is not the b all and end all.    If you ask me the temperament and treatment when they are brought home has a lot to do with how they will react to all that stuff 

I know you do not believe in any form of commercial breeding Rachel but the fact is it is there and there are many different types of commercial breeder.  Wanting to make some money from breeding does not make someone an evil puppy farmer imo 

[Katina]

it takes great commitment on the part of a breeder to ensure that puppies housed outside are used to domestic noises and hussle and bustle 

Excactly. I personally would never buy a puppy that has been living outside. ( And yes, I know, that some very reputable breeders also have puppies growing up in kennel premises, so it's not always a sign of "bad breeding"). Maybe I am a big softie  , but all my dogs live inside my house, as beloved pets, before, during and after their show/hunting careers and when I buy a puppy I want it to be well socialised and adjusted to normal life and household sounds before she/he comes to live with me. The first few weeks of the puppies life are very significant to it's future life. Far more important than is often thought about.

I really did not expect the breeder to get her used to all the usual domestic noises she would come across when she left.  I

Well, it doesn't really take much from the breeder to do this if the puppies live inside. All you got to do is lead a normal life, and they get used to everything: hoover, tv, radio, doorbell, phones etc..

[emilyjw]

People will always go to commercial breeders etc as they may not be able to find a litter from a "reputable" breeder that fits into their time scale. I would say that a commercial breeder is a better option than a puppy farm. I just think it's important that when people go down this route they find the best one they can and are informed as much as possible.

If Heidi is happy with what she has seen then it's her decision. My main regret for us is that we didn't know about Optigen testing, we have to face the possibility that this may happen. Even though we aren't going to breed from Bracken we had her eyes tested at a local BVA clinic. We know that she is clear on both of the tests at the moment. 

We would like to breed dogs further down the line and when and if we do this, we will be finding a reputable breeder with good dogs of a show standard, with the aim that if she shows well and everything else is fine we will breed from her.

I know that some people may see that as irresponsible and deem me a Back yard breeder, but we will join the cocker club and be looking to improve the breed etc.

[Cob-Web]

I know you do not believe in any form of commercial breeding Rachel but the fact is it is there and there are many different types of commercial breeder.  Wanting to make some money from breeding does not make someone an evil puppy farmer imo 

You are right - I don't agree with any *commercial* breeding; but not because I think that well housed, well cared for commercial breeding is "cruel" in the same way as illegal puppy farming, but because it is totally unnecessary, and therefore irresponsible.

I don't understand why someone will buy a commercially bred pup which has been produced with no consideration to genetics, temerament or health screening; why not rescue a puppy from a rescue centre instead?  They are both *unknowns* in terms of health, temerament and ancestry 

[emilyjw]

I don't think you can say that all commercial breeders don't take temprement, health screening and genetics into account. We met both Brackens Dam and Sire and they both had lovely temprements. We wouldn't have got her if they didn't have.

It is very easy to generalise and make sweeping statements, again why I think in some instances you have to go on your feelings and make an informed decision.

Heidi has met the mum and is happy with her temprement and that of the puppies. We don't know the breeder or their circumstances, all we can do is guide Heidi with our own experiences.

[Helen]

While it is good that you are reassured - I'm not sure I would be at all happy tbh; commercial breeders are exploiting animals for their own financial gain, after all

So what about buying from people who have won more FT than you can shake a stick at. They are commercial breeders and have done an immense amount for both breeds, cockers and springers? Rytek and Chyknell are probably two of the most famous prefixes out there.

i do worry about the overuse of some FTCH studs....

very rare to find a working cocker on here without Mallowdale Rackateer in it's pedigree - nothing against him, fantastic dog...but he does seem to be used an awful lot

[Alpha]

If people who are trialling for a living had to live off their winnings they wouldn't be able to do it as it is so expensive nowadays.
Most actually have a few income streams including training, exhibitions, boarding,writing books, videos, stud fees and puppy sales. At the end of the day these people have to earn a living, and come on how many of us envy them the opportunity to have a nice lifestyle doing something they absolutely love doing.
I know i for one would be over the moon 
Rackateer was  Badgers sire, he was like a rocket and as sharp as a whip when out hunting so i can see why people want him as a stud dog especially if you do want to go on and trial. Lilly doesn't have him in her pedigree at all and she is a lot easier to handle than "Old Big Ears" was.

[CarolineL]

Hi Heidi....

I just wanted to re-iterate what Gilly was asking.....

(I have written this before and have copied and pasted it!) 

Is it a show type or working type cocker you are after?? This doesnt necessarily mean that you are going to show or work them. Although both are cockers, they look different and their personalities can vary greatly.

A typical working cocker is on the go all the time, it has been bred to work and as an adult worker will require hours of stimulation on a physical/mental basis. They can take as much exercise you give them, and then some!!! Increasingly working cockers are being sold as pets and it is not unusual for them to be in a home environment. On the whole the are extremely bright - give em an inch and they'll take a mile!! 

Show cockers, although also very busy and on the go probably dont need as much mental physical stimulation. Again, the same applies with them, they can be exercised as much as a worker but will probably flake out at the end of the day whereas a worker will still want more. They too - are in the main clever dogs and will take a mile too!!! 

A working cocker's coat tends to be shorter than a show cockers coat and there are physical differences too.... show cocker have more of a domed head, whereas a workers is slightly flatter, and working cockers are longer in the body.

I would fully advise you to research exactly what type of cocker it is you want before you go ahead and buy one, alot of working cockers have ended up in rescues because their owners didnt quite know what they were getting!!!

A good way to know, if you check the dogs pedigree on a workers pedigree if it comes from good lines it will have FT CH (field trial champion) and a show cocker will have Sh Ch (show champion).

If you do a search on show and worker differences using the search facility you will see that this has been discussed many times before.

Hope that helps

Cx

[Tasha]

Ayla doesn't have Rackateer in her peds as far as I can see

[Gilly]

If Heidi is happy with what she has seen then it's her decision. My main regret for us is that we didn't know about Optigen testing, we have to face the possibility that this may happen. Even though we aren't going to breed from Bracken we had her eyes tested at a local BVA clinic. We know that she is clear on both of the tests at the moment. 

Unfortunately that is EXACTLY ALL it means  Buttons had the KC/BVA test 2 or 3 times and was always clear. She had an Optigen test and is a "B" carrier, the KC BVA scheme can't tell you that, although obviously they are looking at other things too, not just PRA.
And from what I'm seeing results wise with Opitgen A LOT of the Liver line are carriers or worse. Don't get me wrong though of course there are some clears but there don't appear to be as many as there are with other colours, that is just based on my OWN personal observations and NOT fact 

[Tasha]

if a puppy isn't available from the breeder at the time and they can't recommend someone isn't it worth waiting???

I waited two years for Ayla because I wanted to observe the sire and dam and the other pup I have booked I've been waiting six years for... am waiting for a specific line to breed and that time is nearly here

[Nicola]

We would like to breed dogs further down the line and when and if we do this, we will be finding a reputable breeder with good dogs of a show standard, with the aim that if she shows well and everything else is fine we will breed from her.

I know that some people may see that as irresponsible and deem me a Back yard breeder, but we will join the cocker club and be looking to improve the breed etc.

Sorry, just curious but isn't Bracken part working cocker? How will you show her in that case?

[Gilly]

I think Emily means she won't show Bracken because she has got some worker in her, something she wasn't told about but if/when she get's another one she wants Show type and will go to a reputable breeder.

[Nicola]

I think Emily means she won't show Bracken because she has got some worker in her, something she wasn't told about but if/when she get's another one she wants Show type and will go to a reputable breeder.

Ah ok, I did think that but wasn't sure! 

[Cob-Web]

I don't think you can say that all commercial breeders don't take temprement, health screening and genetics into account.

Anyone who does consider all these things and breeds responsibly in order to improve the breed cannot possibly make a living out of breeding and therefore can't be considered commercial imo    If it was possible to make money and still breed ethically, then why don't all commercial breeders do this? They cut corners in order to make breeding profitable, hence, commercial 

As individuals, we have to chose a breeder who we are happy with; but that doesn't mean that others will agree with the ethics of our choice