Met breeder, pups and Mum

[emilyjw]

I think Emily means she won't show Bracken because she has got some worker in her, something she wasn't told about but if/when she get's another one she wants Show type and will go to a reputable breeder.

Ah ok, I did think that but wasn't sure! 

That's right, we go to companion shows and I enjoy that but obviously can't enter proper ones.  I have spoken to a few people about this and when the time is right we will spend the time researching breeders, going to shows etc and work from there. This site has armed me with a huge amount of knowledge and contacts for when the time is right for this.

I just worry that sometimes we scare people off the forum who have come here for help and advice. At the end of the day Heidi has to make her own decision all we can do is try to offer her and others constructive advice.

"Unfortunately that is EXACTLY ALL it means   Buttons had the KC/BVA test 2 or 3 times and was always clear. She had an Optigen test and is a "B" carrier, the KC BVA scheme can't tell you that, although obviously they are looking at other things too, not just PRA.
And from what I'm seeing results wise with Opitgen A LOT of the Liver line are carriers or worse. Don't get me wrong though of course there are some clears but there don't appear to be as many as there are with other colours, that is just based on my OWN personal observations and NOT fact"

I have heard this from another source as well due to the small gene pool. Obviously there is nothing I can do about this now and wouldn't change Bracken for the world.

[Gilly]

I wouldn't change Buttons either  but obviously this does show the importance of Optigen/DNA testing when breeding.

I think this thread has probably gone a little off topic. Heidi no one is trying to scare you off this breeder and if you are happy then that is fine. I do still think health testing is very important and I do think it is something you should ask about.
Also with all people looking for a puppy make sure you are armed with as much information as possible. There is a lot of mixed strain breeding going on by backyard/pet market breeders and you might not always end up with exactly what you want if you're not careful.

[lyn]

i have recently discovered there is a well known show kennel that houses its dogs outside. i think they produce quite a few litters a year yet i have never heard a bad word against them. are they classed as a comercial breeder? i'm not sure but, i am sure that as well known as this kennel is i wouldn't buy a puppy from them if i were looking for a show type. a lot of show dogs here on col will have this kennel in their pedigrees and have done very well in the show ring but, the dogs are in kennels and not in the home enviroment.
i think there is now a fine line between some well know kennels of both working and show strain and comercial kennels.
heidi, i hope you have many many years happiness with your little puppy. 

[emilyjw]

This was posted by Jane on a different thread:

The law defines a commercial breeder as anyone who breeds sufficient litters a year to require licensing by the local authority. Under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act, anyone breeding 5 or more litters a year needs a licence as they are deemed to be carrying on a business. Generally when we talk about commercial breeders on COL, we're talking about those who breed large numbers of litters a year solely to supply the pet market. They may have other breeds or they may only have Cockers - some of the largest commercial breeders have in excess of 20-30 Cocker litters a year so it is not surprising their affixes crop up on so many puppy pedigrees.

So I guess if they have 5+ litters they are commercial breeders.

[Cob-Web]

So I guess if they have 5+ litters they are commercial breeders.

Not necessarily:

Generally when we talk about commercial breeders on COL, we're talking about those who breed large numbers of litters a year solely to supply the pet market.

It is the motive behind the breeding that defines commercial to me - many reputable breeders, who show or work their dogs and are committed to the breed are also licensed by their local council, but make no money from breeding 

[emilyjw]

I guess this is why going back to the other thread it is often hard to define what each type of breeder is as the definitions mean different things to different people. There are a lot of grey areas with things like this.

[Alpha]

so its really your own personal choice as to what you want the terminology to mean, when the law states a commercial breeder breeds 5+ litters a year that would be pretty clear to me then that most larger kennels (either work or show) ARE commercial breeders .
I don't agree for one minute that they make no money they have to cover their costs, stud fees, vets, research etc or else breeding 5+ litters a year would put them in debt.
I agree some people do do it for the love of the breed but i don't think that would be very many of them.   

[lyn]

I guess this is why going back to the other thread it is often hard to define what each type of breeder is as the definitions mean different things to different people. There are a lot of grey areas with things like this.

i think you've hit the nail on the head there emily i suppose ellie would be classed as being from a byb she has no kennel affix attached to her name but, her breeder didn't just put two dogs together and hope for a litter. they had researched the breeding and had carefully considered the health of the puppies before going ahead with the deed so to speak. ellie and livercakes jarvis are wonderful dogs. i don't believe for one second that every so called good breeder doesn't make a profit on the puppies they sell be they show or working. i'm not knocking breeders of quality dogs for making a profit but i do get annoyed when some play down the money side of things. its not a crime to make money and as long as the dogs involved are properly cared for then whats the big deal? better a healthy pup from a breeder who makes a little money in the process than a not so healthy pup from an uncaring breeder. as far as i can see its the dogs welfare that is most important. there are some wonderful people here who breed wonderful puppies. they take all the right precautions and try to guide us novices in the right direction. they can do no more than that. if heidi has found a breeder she is happy with then i wish her and her new puppy the very best of times for the future

[Luvly]

i have recently discovered there is a well known show kennel that houses its dogs outside. i think they produce quite a few litters a year yet i have never heard a bad word against them. are they classed as a comercial breeder? i'm not sure but, i am sure that as well known as this kennel is i wouldn't buy a puppy from them if i were looking for a show type. a lot of show dogs here on col will have this kennel in their pedigrees and have done very well in the show ring but, the dogs are in kennels and not in the home enviroment.
i think there is now a fine line between some well know kennels of both working and show strain and comercial kennels.
heidi, i hope you have many many years happiness with your little puppy. 

putting breeding into catagories isent as simple as it seems .
I think the way to look at this is . is this kennel/breeder a good one .
Is the stud dog owner  a good one .
The question is whats a good breeder of both bitches and dogs ?

Maybe thats what we need to figure out . Ive recently been shocked at what I thought was good   I have high standards of what I think a reputable breeder of both bitches and dogs is and its changing all the time 

[Cob-Web]

I have high standards of what I think a reputable breeder of both bitches and dogs is and its changing all the time 

I agree, and it seems some breeders change their ways over time, as well - not always for the better 

[Joules]

I just worry that sometimes we scare people off the forum who have come here for help and advice. At the end of the day Heidi has to make her own decision all we can do is try to offer her and others constructive advice.

I agree with Emily and have said this many times    Some comments can come across as quite patronising   

In an ideal world all breeders would produce pups for the love of the breed and with the highest of motives but that is just not realistic and why shouldn't they make a bit of money?   As long as they are breeding responsibly and not purely for the money I have no problem with it being done as a business.  Would you say the same about doctors, people who offer IVF etc.  Not many people can afford to operate as a charity 

Anyone who does consider all these things and breeds responsibly in order to improve the breed cannot possibly make a living out of breeding and therefore can't be considered commercial imo    If it was possible to make money and still breed ethically, then why don't all commercial breeders do this? They cut corners in order to make breeding profitable, hence, commercial   

Some cut corners and some do not - I am sure like in every field there are good and bad breeders.  Some will take more care than others,  some will make more money than others and while there are no legal restrictions on breeding this will continue    Rachel you make it sound as if there is no difference between a good commercial breeder (if you would accept that there are such things) and a puppy farmer 

[Cob-Web]

Rachel you make it sound as if there is no difference between a good commercial breeder (if you would accept that there are such things) and a puppy farmer 

I don't accept there are such things though - my opinion is that a Commercial Breeder is someone who doesn't do those things, no matter how well cared for the dogs are, they are breeding them with no consideration of the long term future or commitment to the breed.

I don't believe it is possible to *ethically* breed dogs on a commercial scale, because ethical/responsible breeding involves the selection of the very *best* dogs, in health, temperament, skill and/or appearance and finding them the best possible genetic match.  These *best* dogs are few and far between and there are not enough to breed puppies in large numbers 

If there were no unwanted dogs, no accidental litters, no vets advising that a litter would be good for a bitch - then maybe I could accept that pet-breeding was acceptable; but there are thousands of dogs pts every year, and every dog that is born adds to this problem    I hesitate to condemn all breeding,  but only because I think it is important to maintain the diversity of breeds that we currently have; but imo, there are far too many dogs being born each year, and breeding should be restricted only to that needed to maintain a healthy genetic pool for each breed 

[lyn]

reading the responses on here made me think that if we people were as concerned about humans breeding as we are the dogs breeding then our society wouldn't be in the mess its in today
sadly our world is less than ideal and there will always be unscrupulous(sp) breeders of all breeds.
it would help some if the kc made working and show type cockers into different breeds for registration purposes. i know there would be the arguement about those of us who have working x show types being unfairly discriminated against but they could maybe state a date in the future where all x cockers(showxworking) will no longer be eligable for registration. after all you can't register a sprocker with the kc and they started in the same place as the cocker. they are now so different in type that i truly believe they should now be seperated.

[Alpha]

i do sympathise I am sure most of us in here give to animal charities regularly or even foster or adopt. But on the whole most dogs homes, strays etc are cross breeds that are pts the pedigrees don't hang around at any of these centre for longunless there are behavoural or health issues.  And if it was only to mainatain a healthy gene pool what would then happen to all the people who want a certain breed.....the prices would rocket and then the whole cycle begins again.
And I whole heartedly agree with Lynn that workers should be a seperate breed as i find every day someone with a "show" type who knows more than i do about a breed I have had for 11 years telling me I "haven't got a cocker i must of been done!" "it must be a cross" "my daughters dog doesn't look like that" all the usual rubbish . They are completely different and i think it would certainly stop people buying a working dog by mistake and this would be the best thing that could happen IMO as there would be less working cockers going to Pat and Gill.

[Gilly]

i do sympathise I am sure most of us in here give to animal charities regularly or even foster or adopt. But on the whole most dogs homes, strays etc are cross breeds that are pts the pedigrees don't hang around at any of these centre for longunless there are behavoural or health issues.  And if it was only to mainatain a healthy gene pool what would then happen to all the people who want a certain breed.....the prices would rocket and then the whole cycle begins again.
And I whole heartedly agree with Lynn that workers should be a seperate breed as i find every day someone with a "show" type who knows more than i do about a breed I have had for 11 years telling me I "haven't got a cocker i must of been done!" "it must be a cross" "my daughters dog doesn't look like that" all the usual rubbish . They are completely different and i think it would certainly stop people buying a working dog by mistake and this would be the best thing that could happen IMO as there would be less working cockers going to Pat and Gill.

But that was my point earlier . NOT everyone knows there ARE 2 types and a lot of backyard/commercial type breeders would not bother to disclose this fact as they are getting a sale, the person then can end up with something they didn't envisage.

I take it you have some personal grudge against people with "show" types then? I really hope that we're not going to get into the working vs show debate, not that old chestnut again as a board that started out with just a few members we have evolved with the times as more and more people have working cockers. We all joined this board for a reason, Cocker Spaniels, not working, not show, Cocker Spaniels plain and simple.