puppy is biting/ snapping.

[Jeanette]

Hi everyone.


But we are having problems with him snapping biting at us & its only when we decipline him, for example when hes chewing the sofa we say 'AH' & take him away but he snaps his jaw at us trying to bite us or warning us off. You can actually here his jaw clapping together & gets quite scary because you can tell he wants to bite us & not playing. He doesnt do any mouthing now on our hands, he hasnt done that for 5-6 weeks.
We have pinned him down to the floor & closed his jaws together so he stops snapping, & only release him when hes got a relaxed body. We have sort of growled at him to warn him but he doesnt care as soon as we release him he does it again. So we have to pick him up & take him into another room but also holding his jaw together because if we guide him by his collar he will try & do anything to bite us.
I get upset because i dont know if i need to be harsher with him, or upset because i feel like ive been to harsh on him. 

Can anyone give us advise for him to stop this, we have also tried walking out the room & leaving him but he follows trying to bite our legs. He seems to a stubborn puppy when being told off.
Ive tried looking on the internet but they only seem to talk about mouting & being agressive with food or toys but rufus is not, its only when we tell him 'AH'

Can anyone help please.

Thankyou

Gem xxxxx

Going back to the OP, I've re-read this and you said that he turns on you when you say AH and not any other occasion.   Maybe Rufus now associates you saying AH with the pinning down and holding his muzzle and so reacts when you say this  .   Just a thought, I'm by no means a trainer, maybe someone more experienced can advise. 

When we used the "AH AH" with Indie, it meant time-out and no more play and so she didn't react with trying to bite us, she stopped what she was doing if we turned our back on her.   It took months and months til I realised one day she didn't chase and try to bite/mouth my little one.   The longest months of my life but so worth it now, she is adorable now and wouldn't bite.

If you have problems with the chewing of the settee, maybe it would be best to avoid this room with the pup until he knows better.    As I say, I'm no expert but have been through this but used a different approach.   If you search through threads on here, there are loads about puppy biting and at 15 weeks, I really think you've still got a way to go until this stops completely.

[Cob-Web]

I think its too much of a copout to suggest these methods are Ok because of the children. Would people do this then to their 2 year old if they were just as brattish.

It does seem to be a more frequently used justification - I've lost count of the times I have read/heard recently the line "I have to physically punish my dog, because he's hurting my children"   

The real fault lies with the adults who are expecting too much of a child and a pup, and instead of making a commitment to train and educate both, take the easy option of physical domination of a weak, defenceless animal

I don't think I could sleep at night if I was faced with the frightened face of a puppy every day; a pup which feared me, and cowered under my hands. TBH, I don't think it matters if someone (no matter who they are) recommends it or not; surely you feel bad doing it?   

[Jeanette]

I think its too much of a copout to suggest these methods are Ok because of the children. Would people do this then to their 2 year old if they were just as brattish.

It does seem to be a more frequently used justification - I've lost count of the times I have read/heard recently the line "I have to physically punish my dog, because he's hurting my children"   

The real fault lies with the adults who are expecting too much of a child and a pup, and instead of making a commitment to train and educate both, take the easy option of physical domination of a weak, defenceless animal

I don't think I could sleep at night if I was faced with the frightened face of a puppy every day; a pup which feared me, and cowered under my hands. TBH, I don't think it matters if someone (no matter who they are) recommends it or not; surely you feel bad doing it?   

I was advised by a friend to grab Indie by the scruff of the neck and shake her as that is what her mother would do to her (apparently) - too many people do actually use these methods though and then recommend them.    I never hit my child and wouldn't hit my puppy - its the same in my eyes. 

[PennyB]

If you have problems with the chewing of the settee, maybe it would be best to avoid this room with the pup until he knows better.    As I say, I'm no expert but have been through this but used a different approach.   If you search through threads on here, there are loads about puppy biting and at 15 weeks, I really think you've still got a way to go until this stops completely.

I agree as there are times when their heads are all over the place and they're just not listening so its often best at times to try to avoid some situations all together and pick up the training of these when the pup is calmer --- choosing to train a pup when you are frustrated and possibly angry are best avoided as you can often just set the pup up to fail. Use the quieter times when the kids are in bed to have a few moments to train the pup so they don't get overexcited in the 1st place --- I often found that pups have their manic moments and then it just wasn't worth tryign to 'train' them out of anything. These periods would often happen at certain times so I'd say attach a houseline then the pup could be escorted out with fewer problems. Some days nothing will work but as time goes on you will see small breakthroughs as they begin to listen and learn more.

[tiamaria]

Children and pups are hard work together without the child knowing the boundaries (obviously not too young). My son wanted to play with Charley, but that usually meant him being biten/scratched - with our guidance he soon learnt to swap his hand/arm for one of his toys, and when he got too much, he got up on to the couch and ignored him like we'd told him too. This really helped as Charley seemed to be a lot rougher with Lewis than he was with us.

I must admit i didnt really know about all the biting that came with a puppy - but reading on here and a few books helped me no end.

Good luck with it all! 

[gemgem]

thankyou for your replies,
It has upset me with some of the comments  , we love my puppy rufus very much & the last thing i would want to do is hurt him, this is why i came to this board for support. He recieves alot of affection & love.
We are first time puppy owners but have had alot of conflicting information.
We have stopped pinning him down, we were only doing this if he was getting really bad, we would try the first approach of showing his toys & distracting him, but we will only use this method now.
I feel very bad that we have done this method, me & my partner did ALOT of homework about getting a puppy & nothing mentions about how bad a puppy's biting can get.

Jeanette thankyou for the advice of changing 'ah ah' we have now done this also.

[tiamaria]

thankyou for your replies,
It has upset me with some of the comments  , we love my puppy rufus very much & the last thing i would want to do is hurt him, this is why i came to this board for support. He recieves alot of affection & love.
We are first time puppy owners but have had alot of conflicting information.
We have stopped pinning him down, we were only doing this if he was getting really bad, we would try the first approach of showing his toys & distracting him, but we will only use this method now.
I feel very bad that we have done this method, me & my partner did ALOT of homework about getting a puppy & nothing mentions about how bad a puppy's biting can get.

Jeanette thankyou for the advice of changing 'ah ah' we have now done this also.

Aww please dont be upset! Im sure you wouldnt harm him purposely! Please stick around and everyone will help you get through this phase!

and post some puppy pictures for us! I have another 6 weeks to wait for mine 

[Jan/Billy]

Aww please dont be upset! Im sure you wouldnt harm him purposely! Please stick around and everyone will help you get through this phase!

I agree. What is done is done, you will find more than enough help and information on this board to get you through the puppy stage  

[spanielcrazy]

Try not to feel bad, some of us have come by this knowledge by making the same mistakes ourselves   It is very confusing, there is a lot of conflicting information out there, and what works for one dog or one breed won't necessarily work for another.

You have your puppies best interest at heart or you wouldn't have come on COL   Just try some gentler, non confrontational methods; keep in mind that he is just a baby and has loads to learn (and you too!), and that he will go through lots of phases, some of which may reeeeeally test your patience   but all of which are temporary  and not necessarily a sign that you have a monster in training. Just keep in mind that it will all eventually be outgrown and you will have a dog who is a joy to live with  

If you do a search on puppy biting/mouthing/aggression you'll find loads of good tips. Again, what works for one dog won't necessarily work for the next, give something that makes sense to you a chance and be consistent, but if you don't start seeing results, try something else.

And don't forget, baby steps for both of you; baby steps  

[Jeanette]

What the others have said, this site to me is invaluable and also my puppy trainer was.   When I was trying to teach Indie to stay with the word "stay" as part of our puppy training, I wrongly taught her that this meant come  I didn't realise I had done this as when we went back to training, I told my trainer she just wouldn't stay and also followed me instead, basically I was doing the "stay" but when she moved to me I used to laugh as she is so funny so she was rewarded by me laughing and thought that when I said "stay" it mean't come to me.   I then had to start again with this and change the word to wait for stay and she got this straightaway.    Thats the only reason I thought the Ah noise might mean something negative to Rufus now, instead of the effect you want.   

[PennyB]

I use the 'ah ha' type noise as well with the dogs (and cats) and it seems to work a lot as it has a tone that gets the message across rather than 'no' sometimes

I also use the 'whatsthis'/'was-is' (practically stringing the words together and using a exaggerated tone sometimes) and mine automatically associate it with a reward --- however they learnt it by the fact that in training they got a treat --- because every time I said it they looked at me and in doing so broke off what they were doing and focused on me (the looking at you at that moment often means they are no longer actually doing the thing you don't want them to either) (some use a small squeaky toy only used for that --- basically it is that distraction moment that's needed) . I remember the trainer who I saw when they were pups and older who used 'was-is' in his classes (he doesn't clicker train), and one day we'd taken another cocker from the rescue over there for him to see. At one point martin was recounting a story to us and in the middle of it he said the magic words as part of the story and as he used his arms a lot when telling this story my two just sat there animated like two little puppets in unison moving their heads at the same speed and level he moved his arms --- would've made a great funnyvideo --- but he'd focused them beautifully as they never took their eyes off him the whole time.

[Karma]

I would echo what others have said... I certainly did not intend any offence by any comments, and I am confident no-one else here did either.  As I said, we were also very confused by all the different information out there - and if I had not found this site, we may very well have followed advice from elsewhere  . The subject does tend to cause an emotional reaction amongst people who are committed to animal welfare - but it is the people/organisations who advocate these methods who should be on the receiving end of any ill-feeling - not people who innocently believe they are doing the right thing!!

Your pup is young, and everyone makes mistakes (I know we did!!!).  I am sure you and your pup will develop a fantastic relationship!!! It's amazing how quickly you forget how awful it was when your pup was young - it is so easy to have rose tinted glasses when you see cute little pictures - the hours in tears, pulling your hair out just seem to melt away!!!.
 

[Eceni]

OK, as a vet with an interest in (but no qualifications in) animal behaviour.... I can state quite categorically that I had not the slightest clue what I was doing until I started really learning/reading/going to courses and if I didn't then it seems likely that my colleagues didn't.  And likely also that Purina and Pedigree and the rest are having their 'behavioural' information provided by vets who are similarly clueless.

everyone else has gone into the reasons why adversives are a really, truly bad idea.  I'd add that scruff shaking is monstrous and you will never, ever see a bitch do this to a pup.  These are all insane ideas promulgated by people who have not the first clue what they're talking about and basically make it up as they go along (tho' they're all singing from the same sheet so it begins to sound congruous)

what I'd heartily recommend is that you - and anyone else even thinking of buying a puppy - buys and reads the following books:

'Before and After Getting your Puppy' by Ian Dunbar

'The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training' by Pam Dennison

'Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson (and if you aren't afraid of basic science, go on to read 'Oh, Behave!' also by her - which is one of the very best books on dog behaviour that exists and will explode many of the myths for you - but it's not a 'first' book)

If you want to progress, then I'd heartily recommend 'Control Unleashed' by Leslie McDevitt, but that's also not a first book.

And

find help NOT from the people who spout dominance/abuse - it really has been totally discredited by now - but from someone local who practises genuine positive training - aka clicker training. 

If you spend hours on the web and are happy with it, join some of the web-based clicker training lists

I do so wish breeders would insist people read these books *before* the crisis starts, not after. 

good luck.  your pup is behaving entirely normally for a young dog. It's just that they're not a young human. The culture clash sees 50% of every puppy born in the US (and probably here) doesn't make it to its 2nd birthday.  It'd be good if that weren't to happen here.

e

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Puppies aren't 'evil' they don't know any better and are exploring the world showing them kindness will teach them how to be kind to you in the long run. The only thing I can add to this thread really is that so often people want a quick solution with puppies, they want to see results fast and want their pet to be easy - if you watch any animals with their parents you'll see that their parents put up with a lot more than we expect too when we take charge of their offspring.

Puppies need to grow and learn things for themselves not have it 'disciplined' into them with rough handling. Given time and consistency your pups will learn that when they behave how we want them to, they get rewarded and I have yet to meet a cocker- or any other dog for that matter, that doesn't love being praised for good behaviour... then try harder to please you next time and the reward you will get from seeing them gazing at you wanting to know if you're pleased with them is worth barrel loads compared with a dog that sulks but does as you say.. some of the time or carries on ignoring your requests most of it's life. This enjoyment of pleasing isn't as evident when they are pups but comes with time. Of course you can try bullying puppies and doing what Purina suggests or some out of touch vet, but if it's done with patience and kindness... you will have MUCH better long term results and they will be a lot more consistent because you dog will be doing what you want because he wants to not because he knows he'll get hurt/bullied or shouted at if he doesn't.

I have a friend who'd had dogs all his life who encourgaged me to use the same 'dominating method' with my first cocker pup years ago.. I tried it briefly before I knew any better and regretted it. My pup suddenly didn't trust me and I could see that straight away so I stopped and used the same method I have with my subsequent pup and rescue Weimaraner. Which is to ignore the bad behaviour and time them out everytime they get too rough - it took over six months of very hard work with the pups but I have had two cockers from puppies (one solid golden and one blue roan from completely different breeding lines) that I can totally trust around kids, (I have a young child also and the second grew up with my son as a 4 year old whilst the first cocker was 1 yrs when my son was born) the vets can do anything they like to them too, no rough handling or muzzles are required all they have to do is ask kindly and my dogs trust. I rarely use negative commands with them ('no' or 'ah ah' are long gone just the occasional 'off' or 'leave it' - both commands are rewarded afterwards but I'd rather distract with a 'here... good boy!')

It may be of interest to know that my friend who recommended the 'purina' type method - and the one recommended by Swanjacks vet also has a cocker. A very grumpy cocker that is totally untrustworthy around his young kids and has to be kept separate a lot of the time. If you want a dog like that carry on with the methods you've been recommended by your professional and Purina. Otherwise, accept that a puppy is a very young creature that needs a great level of patience and tolerance from you until it grows and that to get the best out of your dog as an adult, put up with the grief and hardwork now and show kindness and patience then reward like mad when they behave how you want them too and you will grow a strong and wonderful relationship that you'll never regret.

Hannah x

[Hurtwood Dogs]

OK, as a vet with an interest in (but no qualifications in) animal behaviour.... I can state quite categorically that I had not the slightest clue what I was doing until I started really learning/reading/going to courses and if I didn't then it seems likely that my colleagues didn't.  And likely also that Purina and Pedigree and the rest are having their 'behavioural' information provided by vets who are similarly clueless.

everyone else has gone into the reasons why adversives are a really, truly bad idea.  I'd add that scruff shaking is monstrous and you will never, ever see a bitch do this to a pup.  These are all insane ideas promulgated by people who have not the first clue what they're talking about and basically make it up as they go along (tho' they're all singing from the same sheet so it begins to sound congruous)

what I'd heartily recommend is that you - and anyone else even thinking of buying a puppy - buys and reads the following books:

'Before and After Getting your Puppy' by Ian Dunbar

'The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training' by Pam Dennison

'Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson (and if you aren't afraid of basic science, go on to read 'Oh, Behave!' also by her - which is one of the very best books on dog behaviour that exists and will explode many of the myths for you - but it's not a 'first' book)

If you want to progress, then I'd heartily recommend 'Control Unleashed' by Leslie McDevitt, but that's also not a first book.

And

find help NOT from the people who spout dominance/abuse - it really has been totally discredited by now - but from someone local who practises genuine positive training - aka clicker training. 

If you spend hours on the web and are happy with it, join some of the web-based clicker training lists

I do so wish breeders would insist people read these books *before* the crisis starts, not after. 

good luck.  your pup is behaving entirely normally for a young dog. It's just that they're not a young human. The culture clash sees 50% of every puppy born in the US (and probably here) doesn't make it to its 2nd birthday.  It'd be good if that weren't to happen here.

e

I wrote my post at the same time as yours, but what a great post thank you so much.

Thank you
Hannah x