Author Topic: Had to do what I had to do... U/D Better news  (Read 3885 times)

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Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Had to do what I had to do...
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2008, 10:36:10 PM »
Poor you, and poor Ollie....you are both trying so hard and yet you have very little chance of success if you don't have the support of your family  :'(

I honestly think that your parents need to be shocked into action; if they are not prepared to support you and take responsibility for the puppy that they have bought, then someone that they will listen to needs to spell out the possible consequences..... :-\
If there are no family members who can help you, how about a vet nurse, or a dog warden, or even Ollies breeder?   You really need someone that they have respect for on your side, emphasising how incredible your commitment is, and how they need to help you  :-\

Puppies reduce even the most experienced and prepared families to tears, so I can't imagine how you are feeling with no support and their actions undermining everything you are trying to do  :-\

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Offline KatieJean

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Re: Had to do what I had to do...
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2008, 10:38:50 PM »
When I went to puppy classes there was a young girl with a springer. She has great difficulty trying to train as 1. Family were not doing the same as she was and
           2. He was on a high protein diet which the trainer felt was making him hyper
The trainer realised the young girl was not getting enough support at home so gradually she was tactfully asking the father to get this or do that. Slowly it seems to be working so I agree training classes may be the answer if you can and outside support and suggestions to your family may help.
Don't give up. Good luck you'll get there in the end.





Offline Karma

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Re: Had to do what I had to do...
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2008, 11:05:10 PM »

I agree with what others have said - scruffing is not something I would recommend - it's not what the mother would do, and it is a hangover from the old dominance theory advice that sadly a lot of people still give out.  But I don't blame you at all for resorting to it - you are obviously putting in so much work with Ollie and without the support of your family that must be absolutely exhausting - Ollie is at the age where most puppy owners are tearing their hair out - Honey had me in tears on several occassions at around that age, and we reacted in frustration at times - but it is better to be proactive and prevent the problems is you can.

A "leave" command is something you can teach, but in the meantime everyone needs to keep Ollie away from situations where he might do something that is not acceptable...
Looking at what you described (and with the benefit of not being in the situation) I think I would have run away making excited noises, or used a squeaky toy, to distract him from chewing - if he hasn't yet learned what "leave" means, don't set him up to fail by telling him to leave something he finds rewarding.  Personally I wouldn't recommend a water pistol either, as this can backfire and cause negative associations with something else completely...  :-\
(Oh, and I have acted like an absolute loon on several occassions simply to regain control of Honey - the best one has to be at one of our first older puppy romps when all the pups were merrily playing and we were asked to get our pups back and play with them instead of them playing with each other - Honey was far too engrossed in playing to pay any attention to our calls, treats or toys, so I squealed her name in a really high pitched voice, and rolled around on the (muddy) floor with my arms and legs waving all over the place - Honey came to see what on earth I was doing....  :005: )

I think Ollie has learned that running off into the garden with stuff is a good way of getting attention (especially if this gets him attention from people other than you??) - as long as it is something (ideally a treat) that isn't the end of the world, call his bluff and run away inside and be really, really interested in something else in there (get down on the floor and stare at it) - he'll soon come to investigate what is so much more interesting than him!! But keep that up - don't let him see whatever it is you are looking at - you need him to think it's really really good - this should help encourage him to drop whatever it is he has.  Once he has dropped his treasure, give him the treat, but make sure you can get his treasure back (lure him away from the treasure using the treat, maybe?).  Honey learned that she could get a great game of chase out of us by taking the laundry off the airer - after a while we cottoned on to this and, as she never damaged or ate the socks, we decided to ignore her efforts - she pulled about 15 socks off the airer, and put them all in a pile nearby, barking desperately trying to get us to see, but she eventually gave up!!!!

Good luck - I hope your family begin to see just how much you are investing in Ollie, and how much more difficult this is without their co-operation....
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: Had to do what I had to do...
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2008, 10:28:55 AM »
I've been watching your threads with interest.. and I have to say my piece now. You really didn't 'HAVE' to do what you did.

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I'm a bit of a tell it like it is person and whilst this does upset some people, it's said with the very best intentions and i don't really believe in pussyfooting around. When I've really benefited from other peoples advice in life, it's when I've had a bit of a straight talking to... so here goes.

I think you are a little out of your depth at the moment. As has been said, pups can drive even experienced adults to total distraction there are no quick fixes for any of Ollie's behaviour and you and your family need to accept that what he's doing is TOTALLY NORMAL for a pup and will continue for months yet and needs calmly and positively managing proactively - not shouting, fighting and 'rules'.

You will ALL have to put in place some inconveniences to your lives compared with before Ollie also. He shouldn't have free run of the house, furniture etc at this age and he does need informed and educated behaviour from everyone in the house. The confrontation you resorted to as you've described at the top of this post is also a very bad thing for him. Some pups will take that kind of treatment without reacting as Ollie did but lots wont and it's still not a method that will bring out the best in any dog long term and can totally ruin a trusting relationship - which is presumably what you want long term with your dog.

You are not a dog and so trying to mimic other dog behaviour will at best confuse and scare him and at worst give you a lot more problems.

Your relationship with your family doesn't seem to be at the stage where they will listen to you and additionally I suspect that because you are a first timer at this also, they are reluctant to listen to you because you are learning and making mistakes too.

So how do you move forward? My HONEST opinion is that as a family, you need to get a proper trainer to come into your home and sit down with all of you and discuss all the concerns everyone has, then provide you all with a plan that all of you try to stick to. The way things are at the moment clearly isn't working and it's getting to the stage that you and they may be starting to cause yourselves even more problems by the way you are all living with and handling Ollie.

I hope you understand why I've said this as fighting your way though it on your own may seem like a noble thing to do right now and it MIGHT work but it's also very unlikely to work when you all live together and all have to be involved with Ollie. If Ollie has a long term future as a family pet for all of you, it really has to work for all of you. All of you have to work together, as a family and be open to doing that and taking some professional advice from someone that everyone, including you, will listen to.

I do feel for you, but think it's time you all approached this differently as you passing on direction is not working at the moment and I think  you need a proper 'tailored for your family' training plan. A good trainer coming into your home will explain things very clearly and make sense to all of you and could really turn this experience around for everyone in the house - in particular Ollie.

Lots of luck
Hannah xxx

Hannah, Dave & Normy xx

Trev 2001-07 soul dog, always in my heart and dreams x

Offline Helen

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Re: Had to do what I had to do...
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2008, 02:56:42 PM »
Agree 100 percent with Hannah's honest and well written post  ;) :D

helen & jarvis x


Offline bluegirl

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Re: Had to do what I had to do...
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2008, 05:05:16 PM »
Go back to basics with him, he's only 4 mths I see but the more you go over stuff the better he will be come. I was 14 when my mum brought home a pup, we'd had a dog before and the new pup came 1 mth after we lost our old dog so we all knew about dogs, but I trained her myself without puppy classes, because back then (sorry I'm old) it was the done thing.
I took my dog in our garden and did recall over and over, I used treats and praise. I did sit and stay, walk away and call her and she was as good as gold, but it took a while.
I tried calling her sometimes and she'd ignore me, I didn't give up because I knew if I let it slip I'd be teaching her it was ok to ignore me later. I'd tried a different pitch to my voice and I'd crouch down with arms open when calling her to try to get her to come.
If she had something she shouldn't then I'd try to get it off her, I found if I went towards her she'd run off, making a game out of it and in turn it was get me a bit angry that she wouldn't give it up. Again I found distraction or swaps to be the best course of action. I'd distract her with something else, she'd come to me forgetting the other thing thenI could remove it, or I'd go nearer to her, but not near enough to make her move and offer something else (food for example) and she'd only get it once she'd given up the other thing.
You have to be consistent in everything you do so that she can learn the correct response for it.
Try to come up with a plan as others have said with your family, but if they find it difficult to commit make sure you practice as often as you can with him.
At his age if his response is to growl and snap then confrontation will only exaserbate his temper so a calmer approach would help to achieve the desired outcome most effectively imo.
Hope it gets resolved, but by airing your problems on here you are showing you only have his best interests at heart so good on you. :D
Karen, Penny, Logan, Phoebe and Bronte.


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Offline Oliver21508

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Re: Had to do what I had to do...
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2008, 06:30:28 PM »
Thanks Hannah for the honest post. :) Shall I say what he has in the house (like what he is allowed to do), then you can tell me where I'm going wrong and how to improve it? Is there any exercises where I show I'm in charge, like walking through a door first?



Offline Beth

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Re: Had to do what I had to do...
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2008, 06:45:57 PM »
Thanks Hannah for the honest post. :) Shall I say what he has in the house (like what he is allowed to do), then you can tell me where I'm going wrong and how to improve it? Is there any exercises where I show I'm in charge, like walking through a door first?

I would have a look through the behaviour section and do some reading of the positive dog training books mentioned. You seem to be mentioning  (and using :-\) dominance theories.

I have never had to show my dogs that i'm "the boss" i always approach them in a fair way and reward the good behaviour and ignore (or mutter to myself and make a cuppa :lol2:) when there's bad behaviour. ;)
Owned by Jarvis (Cocker), and Lucy (Cavalier).

Offline Nicola

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Re: Had to do what I had to do...
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 06:47:16 PM »
Is there any exercises where I show I'm in charge, like walking through a door first?

It doesn't really work like that. I make my dogs sit and wait at the front door before going out but it's because I don't want to be knocked clean off my feet when I open the door or have them charge out in front of a car, not because I'm trying to show them I'm in charge. For me I've found that the best way to earn my dogs' respect and make them want to work with me (which to me is far better than the notion of me being 'the boss') is to be firm (but not harsh), fair and consistent with them and to make doing things fun and worthwhile for them.

I really agree with what's been said about you getting some professional guidance to help you learn how to deal with Ollie. It's all very well people putting advice on the net (and it's brilliant that you're on here asking, it really shows how committed you are to him) but in some situations there really is no substitute for an expert giving you some properly tailored in situ advice.
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline Oliver21508

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Re: Had to do what I had to do... U/D
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2008, 07:06:30 PM »
What sort of behaviours do you expect from a 4mth-old pup? I'm going to get the Perfect Puppy book by Gwen Bailey.



Offline AnnieM

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Re: Had to do what I had to do... U/D
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2008, 07:22:39 PM »
Personally, I think the Ian Dunbar - Before and after getting your puppy, is better.  Not so much dominance theory twoddle.   ;)

Jazmin is a pretty good girl, she is 19 weeks old.   :luv:  She is however still a puppy and I do not expect her to be a well behaved model doggy citizen 'yet'!! She went through a very chewy stage at about 16 weeks then her teeth started to fall out, so that explained that.  She is quite good on the lead and her recall is not bad, much better when we do not have the distractions of the other dogs with us.  :shades:   She is however, a barker, I think Uncle Archie has taught her well.  >:( :005: She is now the ringleader when there is serious barking to be done, if anyone dares to walk past our gate, which is quite often as we live on a pretty busy road, then she is the first one there, however she is the last one to be seen if they actually come through the gate.  All mouth springs to mind.  ::)  I think you are very sensible to ask for advice and really feel for you that you do not have your family on the same side.  Just remember he is only a baby, 4 months is still very young.  :luv:

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Offline Han

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Re: Had to do what I had to do... U/D
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2008, 08:10:07 PM »
I also got The idiot's guide to positive dog training, by Pamela Dennison. Not that I think either you, or I, are an idiot, but it was recommended on here. Looks good so far and has lots of little exercises in to practice positive training techniques with your pup.

I am a huge novice myself tho and if anyone feels this book is unsuitable I prepare to stand corrected   :D

xx



Offline Karma

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Re: Had to do what I had to do... U/D
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2008, 08:38:03 PM »

When my Mum and Dad got their new dog 8 years ago I had read all about how to make sure they knew who was boss and advised my parents of the things like going through the door first and eating first etc - fortunately I don't think they took much notice of me, and since having Honey and being a member of COL we have learned so much!

As others have said, the key is consistency, which is why you need to have your family on board.  Stick with positive reinforcement - reward the behaviour you approve of! At 4 months, he is probably at his most frustrating - he will be starting to teeth (so will be wanting needing to chew an awful lot - we found Paddywack great for this!), and will be starting to find his own personality, but still won't be fully house trained or have that many commands down cold.  Do lots of short, fun training sessions - but stop them if you feel you are getting frustrated, calm down, then come back with slightly lower expectations. 

If he is allowed on furniture, try to make sure he waits for an invite - this will avoid potential difficulties in future.  Also teach a good "off" command, so you can remove him from the sofa without having to physically intervene.  Make sure he sits and waits for his meals, and always does "something" for a treat (even if he doesn't realise what he has done).  Make the environment as safe as you can so that it is possible to ignore his "bad" behaviour.

While you are waiting for your books, take a look at this website - http://www.scallywagsdogs.com/ogindex.html - this is the training school we used and they go through various aspects of training step by step.  It may be useful to use when talking to your family, as it is a clear reference, rather than just what people have said on a forum....  ;)

I do agree that getting a trainer to come and see you and your family would be helpful - they will be able to let your family know what their actions are actually doing to Ollie, and will be able to give all of you some concrete advice as to how to proceed - just make sure they are properly accredited and use positive methods - if anyone starts talking Dominance or Pack theory, or using aversives such as rattle bottles, then walk away... there are actually companies out there who offer franchises for pet behaviour advice for which all you need is an "interest in animals"  ::) .

Good luck!  :D
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline Oliver21508

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Re: Had to do what I had to do... U/D
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2008, 08:44:01 PM »
Thanks. Tonight, Ollie was sitting on the sofa with us, and he started to get too playful, mouthing and that, so I just picked him up and put him into another room. I think that went well.

He's starting to be fearful of hands and other dogs, which is very worrying. What can I do to help him?

I'll do the invite thing when he goes on the sofa. He's so big now, all he has to do is hop and he's on, so it's going to be a little tricky. His mouth is quite red, and has been for a while, I suspect this is because of his teeth?



Offline Karma

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Re: Had to do what I had to do... U/D
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2008, 10:05:12 PM »

If he is getting fearful of hands, I would avoid using hands for anything remotely negative - though to be honest I think at this age Honey really just didn't want us fussing her, picking her up or anything (we just respected this and she learned to trust us).  Try using a house line so you can guide Ollie around without having to put hands on him.

Also, to be honest, Honey sounds quite similar to Ollie - as soon as she could, she was straight up on the sofa - but by inviting her just as she was about to jump up, it meant we kept some control over the sofa, and we also always made sure she would get off when asked (without having to lift her off).

Time outs are the best way of reducing unwanted behaviour, so you are certainly on the right track there!  ;) But if he is becoming hand-shy, then a house line may help this too....   As far as other dogs, do you have any dogs he can play with regularly?  This is one aspect of puppy training classes that is often overlooked - even though they don't get the chance to play (at least they didn't in ours) they did get used to being around other dogs....
He needs to have lots of positive experiences of time with other dogs...  :D
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020