Had to do what I had to do... U/D Better news

[Top Barks]

If you want this dog to start trusting you  then cut out the I'm the boss mentality and work with your dog.
Dogs are not psychic, they need to be trained to understand what is expected of them when living with humans.
If you don't know how to get a behaviour to happen then call in a trainer.
At 16 weeks they try the best of us but as others have said it is all perfectly normal exploratory behaviour.
If you want to help the hand shyness stop scruffing and start hand feeding your pup instead.
If he is scared of you  you will have an uphill battle trying to get the dog to respond to your requests.
Forget the dominance pack leader stuff it's twaddle and just learn to train your dog.
If you need to time out the dogs keep it very brief and try not to show any emotion.

Mark

[Oliver21508]

Thanks. I'm changing my mind set around, and I'm just going to follow your lead. The reason he's scared of other dogs, is because recently, every dog he has met has either growled at him, or caused some upset. When Ollie is jumping up at them, or doing something unacceptable, then the other dog has every right to growl, but it's when Ollie has done nothing wrong or just wants to play, and the other dog nearly takes a chunk out of him. Every westie he has met so far has upset him, every Jack Russell. The only ones he likes are GSD, and cockers. He has a doggy friend to play with occasionally.

Because I'm at college 3 days a week, I forget, or don't have time to train Ollie. For example, I can't even remember the last time I did a training session with him, so it must have been weeks ago.

I'm thinking of using his dinner for walks, so I can give him as much as I like. I always worry about him getting fat on treats, so if I use his dinner, it won't make any difference.

[sarah25]

I wouldnt be worrying if Ollie had a bit of fat on him his a puppy he will run it off.

[cazza]

Because I'm at college 3 days a week, I forget, or don't have time to train Ollie. For example, I can't even remember the last time I did a training session with him, so it must have been weeks ago.

Sorry but I am going to be blunt here (Please don't take offence, it is meant with the best intentions) - Are you telling me you can't find 10 - 15 min a day when you get home from college   If that is ALL you did 15 min before tea time every day that would be 100% better than No training for weeks and IMO 10 - 15 min a day everyone can find however busy they are

Thanks. I'm changing my mind set around, Good am glad to hear this and I'm just going to follow your lead. The reason he's scared of other dogs, is because recently, every dog he has met has either growled at him, or caused some upset.
 When Ollie is jumping up at them, or doing something unacceptable, then the other dog has every right to growl, but it's when Ollie has done nothing wrong or just wants to play, and the other dog nearly takes a chunk out of him. Every westie he has met so far has upset him, every Jack Russell. what socialiastion have you done with other dogs? I would say you need to find a decent trainer / Obedience class and go!!!

The only ones he likes are GSD, and cockers. He has a doggy friend to play with occasionally.

I'm thinking of using his dinner for walks, so I can give him as much as I like. I always worry about him getting fat on treats, so if I use his dinner, it won't make any difference.

Firstly what are you feeding him? depending on what training you are working on will depend if this will totally work especially as he gets to the 'Kevin' stage.
I use kibble (their food) for sits /down etc in the house and then a higher value treat for recall etc when there is distractions etc

As for him getting fat just reduce his food slightly and use a handful to do some basic training and introduce some higher valur treats

I'm going to PM you a treat sheet for you to work out what value Ollie puts on things (treats and toys) which will help you work out what he sees as a high value item.

BUT I can't stress enough you need to do training every day for 10 min at least and you reall need to find and go to training classes

[Oliver21508]

I'm so upset. I confronted my family about this and I've come away in tears. I was doing the invite thing onto the sofa, and Ollie went into a state where he just barks and runs around, so I put him into the kitchen for time-out. Then, my brother goes in there. yeah, he didn't say anything to him, but that's not the point. I talked to my parents about it, and that they were contradicting every thing I do. And they just said "I'm the adult, you're the child". Well, I'm the one acting like the adult here, not you. I said that I'd do the training but it won't work if they don't help me, and they were just like "i dunno". Well, thanks for offering any sort of help.  They also said that it was a bad idea to get Ollie, now that they see how much work he is. Only me and my mum do anything with Ollie, I walk him on my days off, take him to the park, do off-lead, train him, etc. My mum just takes him for a walk when she feels like it when I'm at college, so sometimes he only get one walk, no training from her, no off-lead, etc. My dad is quite dominant to him, oh and can I say that they hate his barking, so they shout at him to stop? I told them to ignore him, and they are like what good's that going to do? and I was like it'll teach him that it doesn't get him anyway, and they just walked off.  My brother doesn't interact with him, and if he does, it's only to get from one room to another, or to tell him off, and he fhas the NERVE to tell me to control Ollie when he gets loose or I'm asking for some help. I feel so alone, and I feel so bad for Ollie. I'm trying to fight for him, but I can't do it. I don't want him to be fearful or aggressive because of what we've done. I sometimes feel like, , I'll leave you to Ollie, and you'll see the outcome of an untrained, abdly behaved dog!!!!! I'm crying whilst writing this. I don't know where to go from here.

By the way, I've always had a good relationship with my family, but I've always been seen as the baby, (maybe because when I was younger, I did act very childish), and they still think I'm going to do it now. Maybe?? Since getting Ollie, it's caused so many agruments. Sometimes, I think, why on earth did we get him? He'll be much happier with another family. 

[debsallen]

sorry, but I think just the language used in your last post says it all, not a very grown up way of approaching anything!

[Oliver21508]

Sorry, but I'm really upset. Most people in this world swear. There is worse things in the world than swearing!! It's the only bad thing I do, I don't drink, smoke. Now, drinking and smoking is childish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bluegirl]

Dog training has to be daily and consistent.
You'd be unable to pass and exam at college if you wacked lessons all the time and didn't revise for exams and it's the same for your pup. You can't expect him to improve if you don't make the time to teach him. Dog ownership is a commitment and if people want dogs then they have to make sacrifices in order to put the needs of the dog as a priorty. He relies on you for all his daily needs and you should make time every day to provide them whether you go to college 3 days a week or not.
Your family have different ideas on the pup, maybe getting him was not a unanimous decision but whatever the reason you really wanted him now, you have to show him how to behave. Your frustration with your family should be turned into positive training techniques with your pup whilst he's still young and small enough to be moulded. He's like a sponge at the moment waiting to be saturated with training techniques.
For me if he's hand shy at 4 mths something is going really wrong with his training, he's been scruffed, shooed away and smacked I presume for all is undesirable behaviour.
Try some of the great advice you have already been given instead of venting your frustation about your family's lack of help, you can make a difference with Ollie if you start daily training with him. If your family see the improvement they may change too.

[Oliver21508]

But why should I? They don't care, so why do I have to do it all?

[degusuki]

I can really understand your frustrations but that is, unfortunately, part of life and being an adult. Whatever you do in life, you will meet this attitude and moaning about it will not solve it. You have been given some very good advice so now put it to use. When Ollie grows into a beautiful, well trained dog, you can say 'Look at him, I did that' and feel very proud. But only if you put the time and effort in.
Good luck.

[Oliver21508]

But, you've all said before, that if they don't work with me, I will get no way, however good I train him?!

[Beth]

But, you've all said before, that if they don't work with me, I will get no way, however good I train him?!

But perhaps if you led by example then your family would be encouraged to help out. You could impress them with what you can teach him using only positive methods then they can see the benefits. By not even attempting to train him then you are just guaranteeing that he will grow up a confused and bored dog.

[sarah25]

But why should I? They don't care, so why do I have to do it all?

Do it for Ollie

[Karma]

bluegirl has given some very good advice there - hard as it will be you really need to rise above all of the disagreements with your family and put Ollie first - set aside time for regular training, show your family you are committed to him whatever obstacles they put in your way and when they start to see the improvements in Ollie, they will be able to recognise the work you have put in.
I think you need to stop expecting your family to play a more active role - they obviously just aren't going to.  Tell them you accept that you will be doing the bulk of the work, but there are a couple of groundrules you need them to follow - and that needs to be absolutely no negative reactions which could cause him to be more hand-shy - if he continues to associate hands with being told off there will be a big risk of him biting (rather than just puppy chewing).

Just a few pointers - Time Outs for a small puppy should not need to be longer than a few seconds, so someone going into the room shouldn't be a big deal - the key is that attention is withdrawn for undesirable behaviour.  If he reverts to the undesirable/over excited behaviour then just repeat the short time out.
Don't turn the invite thing into a confrontation - at first just try and get an invite in as he is jumping up... To develop an "Off" command, lure him off the sofa with a treat then give him the treat...
In general don't turn anything into a confrontation - if Ollie doesn't yet know what is expected of him, confrontation isn't going to help - this also applie to confrontation around him - he will be picking up on the stress in the house - he might, for example, start to learn that him being near your brother gets you upset, and this may start to affect his behaviour.

As others have said, you need to get Ollie to trust you - this takes regular positive training, consistency and kindness.  Don't try and train Ollie when you are stressed, either, as he will pick up on your stress...  

[SimonandMandy]

I have been watching this post and replies for a few days and I really am concerned for both you and Ollie.  From what you have written at this point I think you need to consider whether now is the right time for you an Ollie and if not whether his needs can come first.  The best start on this might be about writing a list of what you can offer Ollie and what you need help with and then discussing that side of things with your family to see if everyone can act in Ollie's best interests.  A lot of members on here work, have family commitments etc but also know they have to find the time for everything in a day including training, walking etc.  One thing that you may have to consider is that at this time your focus needs to be on being young, experiencing life, completing college etc and as hard a decision as that may be it is the longer term that is so important.

If you do decide that you are committed to Ollie and his future he will need lots of stimulation both mentally and physically as well as a whole lot of love to learn to trust, if you lapse on this at all he is always going to be a handful and potentially destructive etc.  The training classes we have done with Harvey have been the best thing we did as it not only helped him and gave him socialisation but also gave us inspiration, we are counting down till we start again as this to us is a life long commitment.  It may help not only to look at training options but putting yourself a schedule together a bit like study to help focus on what you might do each day for variety etc

You have had lots of good advice on here but please do think about what you can offer Ollie not just now but over the next 16 years of his life.