18 Month old Esther (human) meets Murphy (dog)

[Tessawoolfson]

I have been reading through some of the previous posts about pups jumping up etc.  I think some people say it's just what pups do and you should just embrace it, and other says they can be trained out of it.

Murphy is lovely, we've had him for a week now.  He goes through periods of being very calm and just sitting on it own chilling out, and then has mad half hours where he dashes about as fast as he can jumping up on everything.

We've been trying two tactics.  If he jumps up on the sofa or something we put him down and say 'no'.  If he does it again we remove him from the room and put him in the ktichen on his own for a few minutes.  I wouldn't say this is having a ground-breaking effect but does sometimes work.  I have also been training him to sit for treats so he sometimes remembers to sit with me instead of jumping up on me.

But he does often jump up on Esther and she really doesn't like it.  She is fine with Murphy if he is pottering about but as soon as he goes through his 'crashing around' periods she tenses up to brace herself.  He jumps up on her a lot and she gets pretty upset.  I guess that as it gets a good response, he probably likes doing that more than jumping on the sofa or us!  But Esther is too young to explain to her to ignore him - she generally shouts 'no murphy, down' but then screams.

I'm not sure how to approach this.  I know that at some point Esther will grow older and realise that it's no big deal, but I'd rather not torture her in the meantime.  I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions?

[bibathediva]

I know there are a few members that have had or have young children that will offer you sound advise  but yes it is a puppy thing and can be eventually trained out of them but takes time    and he only has a baby brain so isnt able to retain the info you are giving him plus its much more fun to play with a child than sit at his age   
If he is going *off on one* then seperate them so no one gets stressed...someone will be along to give you alot more in depth solutions 

[alfiesmum]

We also have an 18month old daughter and we had to just teach him to not jump up at her...he doesnt now..just goes mad with my 2 boys(3 and 9yrs old) who can more than handle themselves! we used to give him time out when he got too excited by putting him in kitchen behind baby gate and he sooned learnt to leave her be...now the boys..thats a whole nother story    

[CJ]

Sounds like you are doing all the right things, I also agree with Bibathediva, remove small hooman whilst himself if having a cracker dog moment!!

I'm sure someone with small people will come up with more ideas soon. 

Have fun with him, and all your family.

[pamela]

You seem to be doing the right things so far, it's early days and it will take time.
 Could your daughter help you to teach Murphy sit, that might speed things up a bit.
 A house line is also quite handy to remove him quickly away from Esther (lovely name by the way) if he is getting too energetic.
Don't worry, it will get better and the chaos will pass

[Tessawoolfson]

Thanks for your advice.  We are now one month on but, unfortunately, things are no better and I feel like we may be just making things worse.

Just to describe our space to you....Our main room is a large, l-shaped room.  You come in the door at the top of the L into the dining room, and the bottom bit of the L is the lounge where we have sofas, coffee table and Esther's toys.  We have had to put a gate across the L to divide it into two rooms - so that when esther is playing in the lounge Murphy is in the dining room part.  This means that esther can play happily, Murphy can play happily and the chaos is averted.

However, the end result is that Esther has to basically be 'gated in' to play, as do any guests we have over as Murphy is just too hyper with them, jumping up etc.  He cannot be around Esther when she has toys out as he will take anything from her hand and also pick anything off the coffee table; and even if she didn't have toys out he jumps up and knocks her over.

In the evenings when Est has gone to bed we clear the coffee table and put her toys out of reach and then he can come through the gate into the lounge.  He can be calm at times but would take anything off the coffee table if it was there.

When Murphy is in the kitchen eating his meals, Esther can be there and he tends to be calmer and they can hang out together.

Overall, I think we now have a 'family' dog who really can't be near my daughter unless she has no toys and he is being fed!  This is really beginning to upset me and I'm not sure what to do about it.....

[Jeanette]

How old is Murphy now - hang on in there it does get better.    I've got a 3 year old and Indie is now 15 months, it took til Indie was about 6 months old before she calmed down slightly, I had to go through the jumping, chasing, play biting.     Have you been teaching him not to jump at anyone as that is what we had to do as couldn't have different rules for different people.     

[Tessawoolfson]

He's 4 and a half months.  I find it difficult teaching him not to jump up on guests as he gets so excitable.  We basically just have to remove him or hold him down!

[Karma]

Holding him down is not going to help in the long run! 

You need to work on a reliable "no jumping up" rule - do not ever give any attention unless all 4 paws are on the ground.  Ask all guests to do the same.  If he jumps up, ignore him completely - if necessary turn away, so that attention is definately gone.... he will soon get the message!!!

And from what I've read here, it's quite common to have to keep puppies and young children almost completely seperate. You might find a house line helps you introduce some interaction in a controlled manner - the house line will mean you can guide murphy away before he gets over excited without having to physically intervene!!!! 

[fifer]

You say

In the evenings when Est has gone to bed we clear the coffee table and put her toys out of reach and then he can come through the gate into the lounge.

am I right then that Murphy gets excluded from family life at all other times?

[Jeanette]

I agree with what Karma says, if Murphy still jumps up at you, the first step will be to teach him not to jump with you.   When you walk into the area where he is and he tries to jump, turn your back on him and when he has all four feet on the floor then praise him, even if ours was just sat when we walked into a room, she was constantly praised so she learnt that she got lots of fuss for not jumping at all.   My son is older so was a bit easier for me as he used to copy what I did and if Indie jumped at him, he turned his back on her (had to keep reminding him to do this though) and then when she stopped jumping he gave her a fuss.    It is repetitive but does work in the long run.   Not sure if you clicker train but I always had a clicker on me when she was a pup and if she didn't jump when I walked in the room, I clicked and gave her a treat.     

The same thing applied if I was going back into the kitchen where she was, I'd only open the gate when she was in the sit position. 

We also had to clicker train her not to chase my son but that was with help from my trainer as I didn't know how to stop this.    I had to have Indie on a lead in the hall and my son had to walk past her, if she stayed still and in the sit position she was clicked and treated, if she went to chase him she got nothing, this only took a couple of days of lots of practising.

Indie now doesn't jump at anyone (probably tempting fate here now  ) and she doesn't chase as she learnt she doesn't get rewarded for this. 

Holding him down or just removing him won't teach him not to jump at people.   Rewarding him when he doesn't jump will teach him that he isn't supposed to jump.     It is a lot of work involved when you've got children, people I know when I go out walking have dogs that jump (as I come home covered in mud) as it isn't a priority to them whether they do or not as they don't have children so its not a big deal, I probably wouldn't have been that bothered if I didn't have children as I like the excited greeting.   

And yes we also kept Indie and Ethan seperate when he was playing with his toys on the floor.

I don't know what else to suggest really but don't give it, it does get easier with lots of training.   The more you show him what he should be doing, the quicker he will pick this up as otherwise he won't understand that he's not allowed to if that makes sense.

[PennyB]

am I right then that Murphy gets excluded from family life at all other times?

If so he's never going to learn how to act (I don't mean he should be with you at all times but he shouldn't be isolated either just becuase its easier). Having a pup is very hard work an dnot just abuot housetraining and stopping him pulling on the lead or chewing.

Training a dog is as much about being proactive rather than reactive. How much time to you spend training him during the day (plus he also needs active socialising as well) --- the more he learns, the more he can also bond with you and eventually the more he will listen --- + stimulating his brain can also calm him as well. He doesn't need an intensive training course just little and often (because he has a small brain and very litte concentration).

Read a couple of books if you can as well (have just picked up the 'culture clash' again by Jean Donaldson and in certain bits its a good insight into what you're doing/not doing now)

[Tessawoolfson]

Thanks for your advice.  On the 'is he excluded from all family life' question - the answer is that I don't think so.  We spend time with him on his side of the gate (in the dining room), time with him in the lounge when Est is asleep, time with him in the kitchen and time outside as well as training time.  But I do feel that a big part of our family life is Esther playing in the lounge and he is excluded from this and I am concerned that we are just isolating him from this important part of family life and not teaching him how to manage it, which is why I am worried.

About the jumping up on people - I realise that holding him down is not a solution.  With us we have been just turning our back on him and praising him when he is down and this is definitely making a difference with us.  Esther cannot do this though as she jut screams whenever he jumps up on her!  I haven't tried a clicker or the other techniques Jeanette mentioned but they look really helpful and I will look into them.  With guests I find it very difficult to order them to turn their backs and ignore him, but maybe this is just what we need to do.

For example, at the moment my sister is here and Murphy was jumping up at her while she was sitting in the chair in the lounge (Esther is having a nap).  I asked her to ignore him and he just kept jumping up and then started biting at her jumper.  She became a little nervous and we had to remove him - he is now on the other side of the gate playing happily with his toys.  He is in the same room as us but there is a gate dividing us so in that sense he is now excluded from 'family life'.

But he jumps up on objects as well and the ignoring trick definitely does not work with this.  For example he'll jump up and put his front paws on the coffee table and grab whatever is on it, or just have a sniff around.  Or he'll jump up at the dining chairs or shelves.  I can see that ignoring him makes no difference in these situations but I'm not sure what the solution to this is.

He is going to puppy training classes just now but I have thought about getting some one-on-one advice - I'm not sure if I am over-reacting.

[bibathediva]

He is still only very young and is himself still a baby.....it does take alot of time ,consistency and patience with a young pup and could be months and months before there is any real difference...he has a lot of growing up to do and a lot of learning.
Pups do disrupt family live for a while but it really does get better with time 
You have been given some good advise about long lines to use in the house and the ignoring technique but everyone has to do the same even guests
Could you let Murphy be around your daughter with supervision  it doesn't have to be a long period of time perhaps 10 mins a day to start with as he does need to learn how to behave around her and excluding him full stop could make him more excitable when he does get to see her 
If he is taking stuff from the coffee table or other places then just remove the stuff then he wont get hold of anything...have you taught him a leave command or the off command as they both would be useful in this situation 
Some one to one training would be good for you both 

[Cob-Web]

I do feel that a big part of our family life is Esther playing in the lounge and he is excluded from this and I am concerned that we are just isolating him from this important part of family life and not teaching him how to manage it, which is why I am worried.

I have an eight year old daughter, a four year old dog who we have had from a puppy, and a three year old dog who we have had since she was just over a year old (both cockers) - and there are still times when the dogs are "excluded" from the normal parts of family life that involve my daughter playing with her toys in the lounge.

IMO, young children and dogs are the most misrepresented relationship in the media - they cannot and should not co-exist without supervision and management 

I expect lil'bit (my daughter) to act sensibly and responsibly towards the dogs when she is sharing space with them and she is not mature enough to be able to *remember* to do this if she is absorbed in playing with her toys; she naturally wants to behave like the child that she is, so the dogs are removed from the situation .......

Toys are played with upstairs in her room, where the dogs are not allowed, or on one of the tables, where the dog can't reach - or if the game play is on the floor (she was playing jacks with her Nanny this morning) then the dogs are popped behind the gate so they don't interfere and steal the pieces     

We have had negative comments from family and friends about this arrangement; my reply is that it works well for us, and although I appreciate the implied offer, I don't really want them to give up their time to train my dogs to behave differently    It was very hard when lil'bit was a toddler and Molo a pup/young dog - in order to give them both the time they needed, OH and I had very little time together; but it was well worth it, as lil'bit has grown into a confident, sensible dog handler and Molo is bombproof when it comes to children