Please help - not sure if this is normal and at my wits end...

[mmeears]

Hi, we have a 4 and a half month old black working cocker called Daisy and she's been here with us since she was 8 weeks old. My husband and I have both had dogs before - we said goodbye to my gorgeous 14 year old boxer Bobby just over 2 years ago - so we understand the hard work, time and patience needed to train and bring up a happy and healthy puppy. Daisy has been a fairly difficult puppy from the start due to her frenetic behaviour ie a complete inability to settle and be calm for more than 10 seconds other than when she is in her crate. She is constantly on the go, very boisterous with us and other dogs (although not aggressive as such) and has to be on a leash if not in the crate whereupon she will chew it and whatever it is attached to. She bites pretty hard (although I appreciate this is mostly play) and its often if we are not paying her any attention ie when we are eating - I've tried standing on the lead to stop her jumping up etc but she will then bite my foot, leg etc.  I have followed all the advice on here in that respect and we have had a trainer come to the house to give us advice which we have followed.

We thought this was all pretty "normal" behaviour for a cocker spaniel puppy but Daisy has recently stayed with an extremely experienced dog handler/carer (she also whelps local cocker breeders' litters and has her own working cocker bitch) while we were away on holiday. She is a friend of the breeder from whom we got Daisy and she also knows the owners of the stud dog, Daisy's father. Her first words to my husband when he picked Daisy up were that she wasn't sorry to see Daisy go. She basically said Daisy was bonkers/a bit mad and very very difficult. She had another puppy from Daisy's breeder and that puppy was what she would expect from a cocker puppy - full of fun but much calmer than Daisy; Daisy was 1000 miles an hour all the time. She even contacted the stud dog owners, who are very successful gundog trainers and breeders, to ask for some guidance. They said for us to contact them on our return which we have done and are awaiting their return call. However I dont know where to go from here. Maybe Daisy would be happier working rather than being a family pet?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. We dont want an adult dog that is unmanageable, particularly as we have young children, but is there another option? I'm so very upset at the thought of her not staying with us but I dont know if I can cope with this for the whole of Daisy's life . Thanks so much for any help anyone can give.

[mmeears]

I also wanted to just mention that prior to buying Daisy we did lots of research into the issue of whether a working cocker would be right as a family pet and were reassured by the owner of Daisy's sire that their puppies were often taken in as family pets as they are such a loving and affectionate breed with a great temperament. Exercise isn't an issue as Daisy gets the right amount of exercise for her age and I can see from this forum that many of you have working cockers as family pets. I just didnt want anyone thinking we had jumped into the frying pan before testing how hot it was!!

[mooching]

As she is a working cocker, not a show cocker, her behaviour is not at all abnormal, and definitely within the range of what is to be expected from a working cocker puppy.

How much exercise and training/mental stimulation does she have each day? How much socialisation is she getting, and does she have some off-lead time every day?

[bajoleth]

I really don't have any advice as I have Show type Cockers but for the lady who is used to working Cockers to say what she did maybe she is a little much for a family 'pet'? I don't say this lightly as I would hate to be in your position, maybe try the Gun dog breeder again and await his response and go from there, but from your post it sounds like you have tried all that has been suggested and she is still a handfull. I hope somebody will come along soon with some practical and sensible advise for you, I am not sure I agree that that amount of hyperactivity is what is to be expected to be honest but as I say I am not exerienced in owning a Worker.
Good luck and I really hope it all works out for you

[Karma]

It sounds like your pup has a very high working drive... it sounds like you are willing to put in the effort, so I'll go straight to a few things which might help.

1.  You say in your post that she is happy in her crate.  Use this to your advantage - pop her in there when you are eating or at other times when it is impossible to give her attention, so she doesn't resort to attention seeking behaviour.

2.  Mental stimulation - this is more important than physical exercise for a working cocker.  Have you tried clicker training?  This is really great for making dogs use their brains... this is a good site for some info and guidance on clicker training - http://www.clickersolutions.com/ - there's some great articles on there which explain the theory behind clicker training, and go through training the basics...
Other things are treat balls, kongs etc - even kibble in a plastic bottle (with the lid off) - these will all provide mental stimulation.

3.  Food - what are you feeding her?  What treats does she have?  Personally I would stop giving her meals and use all of her food allowance at the minute to reinforce the behaviour you do want... this includes calm behaviour (which a lot of puppy owners forget to reinforce!) - so any time she lies down, praise her calmly and give her a peice of kibble.  Reward good focus on you.  

I'm sure there's other things that can help - probably looking more at some of the specific problems, but this might give you a starting point!

[Nicola]

Some working Cockers are very high-drive, they can be extremely energetic and full on - as really they should be, although if channelled correctly they should not be overly 'manic'. Daisy is still very young but what training do you do with her and how much exercise does she get? At her age exercise needs to be limited but you can still do plenty of training and brain work with her to keep her mind occupied. Have you tried clicker training? Do your children interact with her a lot? A busy household with young kids etc. can be quite overstimulating and some working Cockers are just not very well suited to this kind of lifestyle. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case with Daisy, just stating something that I've seen in my experience. Imo these dogs need a job to do, if you weren't going to work Daisy were you planning to do any other kind of dog sport or activities with her? Dogs can 'calm down' with maturity but a high-drive working Cocker is a high-drive working Cocker and if anything that is likely to intensify as they go into adolescence. It's entirely possible to channel that drive and use it constructively though, but it does take a lot of time and training.

When you say she's on a leash when she's not in her crate and she chews what it's attached to do you mean that you have her tied up? What food is she on just now?

[mmeears]

Lots of points there to respond to so probably best to do it by reference to Karma's post.

1.  Yes we have been using her crate as much as possible as I know she is happy and content in there. The trainer who came to the house recommended that when we were in the sitting room (her crate is in the kitchen) and we were sat that to prevent her from jumping up we should attach her lead to the chair leg so she was prevented from doing so and to then praise her when she was sat which we did. She said to set her up to succeed and not to fail so to try and anticipate and avoid the behaviour you dont want. The thing is she then chewed the lead and then the chair leg and as soon as we let her off she jumped up at us, biting etc. If I had the lead on the floor and put my foot on it she would bite my leg.
2.  Daisy attended puppy training classes and we were given a clicker which we have been using since together with treats and affection. In fact my 1 year olds first words were "good girl"!! I probably spend on average about an hour over the course of the day, ie 5 minutes here, 5 minutes there, training her - her basic commands are excellent - sit, stay, lie down, off etc. I will have a look at that website tho for extra tips. She also has a kong which we fill with squeezy cheese and kibble and lots of other chews and toys. She also has a cube which contains treats and she must roll the cube around to get them out. In terms of physical exercise she runs around in the garden with my daughter 2 or 3 times a day playing fetch etc usually for around 10/15 minutes each time. We also go out of the house once a day and meet up with lots of other doggies so she can run around off the lead, usually for about 30/60 minutes. She is fantastic with the other dogs and hugely enjoys playing with them but most of the other dog owners are amazed at her energy levels! We were planning to do some sort of agility or flyball classes with her when she was older to provide mental and physical stimulation.
3.  She was being fed Arden Grange puppy food which the breeder was giving her and we have slowly introduced James Wellbeloved food which was recommended by the trainer at the puppy classes. I take the food out of her allowance to use as treats as I am very conscious not to overfeed her. The thing is as soon as we praise the calm behaviour she immediately jumps up at us and then runs around so we have to ignore her until she is calm again and try praise again but it can end up going on for 10 minutes and all it seems to do is wear us out and wind her up!

I think I have covered most questions there! Apologies if not. I do want to say though that we, as a family, absolutely love her to pieces and would be devastated to see her leave but if she is ultimately not going to fit in with us and would be happier working then I think its better to know that now rather than in 6 months time. As I said in my earlier post I had a Boxer for 14 years from being 8 weeks old so I know how much exercise and stimulation dogs need and how active and boisterous they can be  but Daisy never lays down in her bed  for a minute and I am worn out by it. We wanted a pet who would fit into our loving and active family life not us fitting into hers and this is why we spoke to the sire's owner before we even considered seeing the litter. If this is "normal" behaviour and she will calm down as she gets through the puppy phase then at least there will be light at the end of the tunnel!

[mooching]

The trainer who came to the house recommended that when we were in the sitting room (her crate is in the kitchen) and we were sat that to prevent her from jumping up we should attach her lead to the chair leg so she was prevented from doing so and to then praise her when she was sat which we did. She said to set her up to succeed and not to fail so to try and anticipate and avoid the behaviour you dont want. The thing is she then chewed the lead and then the chair leg and as soon as we let her off she jumped up at us, biting etc. If I had the lead on the floor and put my foot on it she would bite my leg.

I am not a trainer or any kind of dog expert, but I find that advice curious. With our pup (also very prone to jumping up), to curb his jumping up at the furniture we've taught him "away" and "bed", initially rewarded with a click and a treat, now just an occasional treat. For jumping up at us, we've taught him "down", and then to sit, and lay down, and then rewarded him with a treat, and nowadays a fuss (and an occasional treat to reinforce it). No member of the family ever fusses him when he jumps up, and any visitors are also asked to ignore him if he jumps up, and he is gradually improving.

In terms of physical exercise she runs around in the garden with my daughter 2 or 3 times a day playing fetch etc usually for around 10/15 minutes each time. We also go out of the house once a day and meet up with lots of other doggies so she can run around off the lead, usually for about 30/60 minutes.

I would say that she may well benefit from another "formal" walk or two out of the house on the lead, rather than just relying on the running around outside with your daughter, especially as that kind of exercise likely involves a lot of "getting excited" high-energy stuff. How old is your daughter? When Daisy is with her, does she keep strictly to the rules you have for Daisy (eg no jumping up)?

3.  She was being fed Arden Grange puppy food which the breeder was giving her and we have slowly introduced James Wellbeloved food which was recommended by the trainer at the puppy classes.

There's nothing wrong with JWB, though I personally would have kept her on Arden Grange as the quality of the food is higher and the company more ethical. I have read some reports online of people finding their puppies/dogs going manic on JWB but have had no personal experience of this.

(My pup is 4 1/2 months old, and is a Working Cocker X Jack Russell/Patterdale, from working stock; 90% of the time when I have told people what he is, they have opened their eyes wide and said "uh oh, that should be interesting"  )

[Nicola]

You sound like you're doing the right things with the clicker training etc. but I don't know if your last dog is the best reference for Daisy; a working Cocker, particularly a very high drive one, is a very different proposition to a Boxer - they have different drives, instincts, motivations etc. What you're describing is 'normal' behaviour for a high drive working Cocker pup, particularly one in a household where there are kids, a lot going on etc. but as I said in my previous post her drive is unlikely to diminish with age, if anything it'll be the opposite, particuarly if/when she becomes switched on to hunting when she's out and about and it's a matter of channelling and using that drive constructively.

On the exercise front, at 4 and a half months old going by the 5 minute rule that is about 20-25 minutes exercise 2-3 times per day. I think from your post that it's possible that Daisy is getting a bit too much physical exercise just now which can also contribute to overstimulating them. Several longish fetching sessions (which in themselves are quite excitement-making) and then a single long period of exercise is a lot for a 4-5 month old pup. Would it be possible for you to maybe cut down on the fetching periods and split the longer walk into 2 or 3 shorter ones of around 20 minutes each and intersperse her running around with some training and work on focussing on you?

[mmeears]

My daughter is almost 7 and was here when the trainer came to the house so she listened carefully to all the advice about overstimulation and over exercise and I am constantly repeating it to her! We've slowly built up the exercise/play sessions too and are mostly puppy led but I have tried to be very careful over not tiring her out and watching for signs that she is overtired. They dont normally last more than 10 mminutes at a time. Anya knows not to shout or flap her arms around and all praise is very calm and positive. To be honest Anya is pretty lazy so doesnt want to spend too long outside with her Even when inside she constantly wants to play so I will usually put her into her crate quite often throughtout the day to force her to rest and have some quiet time. Through the day when Anya is at school the house is pretty quiet so she can have lots of undisturbed quiet time.

The only problem with having 2 or 3 shorter walks is that I also have a 1 year old and my husband works away through the week so the timingand fitting it in is quite tricky. She's terrible on the lead too so I have been following the advice in my puppy book and from the training class which is to stop as soon as she pulls and set off again as soon as she stops pulling. It can take 20 minutes just to walk to the end of the street

I completely understand that Boxers are nothing like Cocker Spaniels - Boxers aren't like any other breed I know   but basically I just used her as an example of living with an active dog and appreciating the responsibilities that come with that

To be honest she hasn't had much of the JWB food as as we are still working through the massive bag which we bought from the breeder!

[Helen]

I'm sorry if this sounds rude but why did you choose a working cocker puppy?

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

Thank you for your Pm you have just confirmed what I suspected and TBH for reasons im not going to go into on here something that im upset about.

You own Seths sister from the same litter.

You have a extreamly driven, well bred working cocker on your hands  

I spoke to people that owned dogs by Seths breeder and he breeds highly driven dogs that would hunt concrete.  All the dogs in your dogs pedigree are real working dogs if you know what i mean.

Seth is a non stop very clever working cocker who needs a lot of training which is what i wanted.

I plan on doing competitions with Seth and working him and hes certainaly bred for it  

What i do with Seth is he gets two 15min walks a day which are mainly play with me, he also gets little bits of training throughout the day. I keep things very basic at this age, Seth doesnt know stay he knows sit, down, off etc. Seth doesnt believe in giving up and turns into a little crocodile when hes over tired but is too scared of missing something to sleep so he gets popped in his crate and made to rest.

I think there is a fine line between doing enough so that there happy and doing too much which makes them hyper.

I really dont know what to say to you TBH, I so dont want to be negative and dont want to say anything that will make you do anything rash.

Seths an out and out working cocker, I own his half sister brie (same sire) and shes also a hugely driven, clever (sometimes too clever) non stop cocker. If shes been walked and trained she settles really well in the house but if somethings going on shes right in the middle of it and although happy to rest is never,ever tired if you know what i mean. She can be really hard work.

I think that the stud dog owner has fed you a load of crap sorry, he knew the dam of this litter and knew what she was like so must of known what the pups were going to be like, in fact he was looking to have one of the pups so what does that tell you when he trials dogs.

What i can say as a positive is that all the dogs I have met from this stud dog and the dams previous pups have fantastic temperments. Seth is very similar to Brie and from the sounds of it so is your pup and Brie has the most lovely temprement i have ever known in a dog.

[Nicola]

From what you're saying you're a dog-savvy family and you're putting in training time etc. but unfortunately there's no way anyone can tell you what is going to happen a few months or more down the line. If it is as it sounds, and Daisy is just a high-drive dog, then she's not going to grow out of that and as she gets older and her stamina and hunt drive increase she's likely to get 'worse' if it's not channelled properly. I may be going a bit broken record with the whole 'channelling' thing but I do have some experience of living with and training working spaniels (Springers and Cockers) and I have one who could easily be termed as 'extremely high drive' so I have an idea of what Daisy is like. My own high drive dog would not be suitable as a pet, she needs to work and as she's got older this has become more pronounced. This is always the chance you take when you buy a working-bred dog as a pet, some of them take to it ok but a lot of them don't. With the right work put in they can turn out fine but that's an ongoing lifelong thing and only you can really decide if you can do that or not. From what you've said she sounds like the kind of pup I'd look for  but I want them to work/trial.

I've just read CCG's post and wowzers, you really have got a 'working' working-bred pup. Whoever sold you that kind of puppy as a pet is very irresponsible imo

[mmeears]

Hi Helen, we weren't actively looking for a particular breed until we stayed at a guest house in Hawes and met a beautiful cocker spaniel who played beautifully with our daughter. We chatted to the owner and she explained she was a working cocker and it kind of went from there really. She passed our info to the sire's owner who then rang us and assured us that a working cocker made a wonderful family pet. We like to go out walking together and wanted a dog that would be happy playing in the garden with the children and running around the beach and Northumberland countryside with us. I looked on this forum first too and saw that many people owned working cockers but did not "work" them.

TBH I think I've been misled by both the sire and dam's owners and am very upset. Not sure what to do now as it doesnt sound as though Daisy is what we thought we were buying and although it breaks my heart to think about it we may have to consider asking the breeder to take her back...

[Helen]

TBH it doesn't sound like a particularly responsible breeder to me 

I don't think your problems with Daisy are insurmountable but she will need a lot of work and time    working cockers are wonderful dogs but one with a high working drive can be very tricky 

I do really feel for you, it's not an easy situation.