Aggressive Puppy behaviour PLEASE HELP

[chrisUK263]

We went through a similar experience when we first got toffee. He would be aggressive towards our 3 year old son either when he tried to take something from him or if toffee was with me and Fraser came over for a cuddle. I really panicked as I was afraid for my sons safety and i could tell he was meaning it and wasn't just playing.

However it only lasted a week or so and we realised toffee thought he was higher up the pecking order than Fraser. Toffee was just trying to find his place in the family pack.

From when he realised he was bottom of the ladder (although we love him dearly) we have had no problems with aggression. He is still a bit rough when he is playing but not aggressive at all.

Hope you find out it's the same for you.

We seem to be having that problem at the moment, she is most of the time ok with me and my girl friend, but with her 9 year old son she's more aggressive and wants to play bite with him all the time. I've told him not to feel so scared of stroking her and be firm and not use "Squeeky voices" when talking to her as she see's him more as a brother to play bite with. How did you manage to stop this and make it known to the dog that she is the lowest in the rankings? we make sure she eats after us, we walk through doors first and that she only gets toys or treats when she is calm and waiting, not giddy.

[Hurtwood Dogs]

It's not about dogs ranking anywhere in a family, it's about humans and dogs learning to live together through mutual respect. The 'pack' theory is very very outdated - your dog does not see you as another dog or even a pack member..

Dogs do need consistency and boundaries but for a trusting and good relationship these should be delivered calmly and kindly and through managing them rather than punishing them or showing them who's in charge. A relationship with a dog based on fear of you is a lot less reliable than one based on trust and a well built relationship.

Children and puppies are more often than not a problem. I've always had young children and babies around puppies and keeping them separate most of the time is such a good investment at this stage. I tried to get my son (who had grown up with another dog) to help with our second pup when he was 5 but the puppy attacked him so much it just wasn't going to work, after two days of blood running down his legs and my son desperately trying to ignore the pup I was in bits. I talked to a trainer in desperation as I'd trained puppies before but this was new to me and she very sensibly told me to keep them mostly separate until the pup had matured a bit - it actually took until he was about 10 months old but it was the best advice I've ever been given. That kid and dog now have the BEST relationship ever and he's very calm and happy around other children because they never had a bad moment when he was younger and a crocodile! It doesn't work asking children to help train a pup because they are not capable of ignoring the pain of puppy biting or being consistent... therefore, it's not fair on either the child or the puppy and very likely to make training a lot harder as the kid reacting excites the puppy too much.

Supervised calm interaction for very short periods is good but try and end the session before it goes wrong and even have the pup on a longline so that you can calmly remove it when it starts biting. The way children move and talk will excite a puppy more than an adult does and you can't ask a child not to be a child...

At this age, you want the pup to see and get used to children but avoid any conflict otherwise you risk the puppy becoming wary or fearful of children as an adult dog which is when you'll get problems. You also risk the child becoming fearful of the pup and so reacting more and then it becomes a vicious circle with the pup targeting the child because it's exciting. It's important any interaction for the first year or so is kept positive and short. It varies from puppy to puppy and you'll have to judge what's good for yours.

[mooching]

However it only lasted a week or so and we realised toffee thought he was higher up the pecking order than Fraser. Toffee was just trying to find his place in the family pack.

From when he realised he was bottom of the ladder (although we love him dearly) we have had no problems with aggression.

In our family, we don't have a "pecking order", or a "pack", and Alfie is definitely not at the "bottom of the leader". We all just play different roles, and those roles complement one another.

[mooching]

We seem to be having that problem at the moment, she is most of the time ok with me and my girl friend, but with her 9 year old son she's more aggressive and wants to play bite with him all the time.

It might help to look at how he behaves when he's around her. Does he have her on his lap a lot, does he get on the floor to play with her, does he play lots of chasing games with her, does he disturb her at all when she's resting/asleep? Is his playtime with her supervised so that you or his mum can see when the pup is getting tired or overexcited and play needs to stop?

If he hasn't been around a dog before, it's important to teach him how to behave around a pup - especially when it's just best to leave her be.

[Toffeepop]

When we had issues with toffee we asked a dog trainer to come to our house to observe what was happening. It was the dog trainer who described the situation as I did in my previous post. I am not a professional nor do I have a lot of experience training dogs but I accept there are many different ways to train them and you must do what suits you and your dog.

The trainer told Fraser to stand up and point at toffee and say no firmly however we just didn't let the situation arise again. At 3 years old Fraser is not capable of knowing what to do and it is our responsibility to ensure the safety of our son. We have a stair gate across the door into the kitchen and when toffee gets over excited or if Fraser has friends round to play we put toffee behind the gate. That way he has access to his food water and bed and can also get up the garden to play and I know the kids can play safely in the house.

We are still working on getting toffee to stop jumping up and he does stop after first jump now but that first jump can be very painful and can tear young delicate skin so we try not to let Fraser be in that situation although it is difficult.

We are never cruel to toffee and we are working on the positive training method and he is very much a member of the family but I am afraid I will always rate my son as "higher in the pecking order" and I am sorry if others do not agree with this. If you knew me you would know how much I love toffee and dogs in general and I know we, as a family, will ensure toffee has a happy healthy home for the rest of his life.

I appreciate people on COL feel very strongly about their dogs and their wellbeing and hope you did not think from my previous post that I am any different.

[mooching]

When we had issues with toffee we asked a dog trainer to come to our house to observe what was happening. It was the dog trainer who described the situation as I did in my previous post.

I understand that you were just trying to do what was best for your situation, but the "pack theory" is an old theory that has been found to be flaws well and has been superceded in recent years (as well as having been found in many cases to be counterproductive).

(Btw I think you did absolutely the right thing in making sure the situation didn't arise again, instead of implementing what the trainer said)

[Jo-and-Alfie]

We are having the same thing with Alfie. I agree it's not aggression but can seem like it. I've noticed its at the same times each day around 2.30pm once ive put my daughter to bed for a nap and he's just woken from one so has plenty of energy and is over excited so tries to bite my leg as I'm the one around, I've been taking him out in the garden to play and take a tennis ball and nessr scraggie (which are fab!) with me so he can attack that instead and he loves it. He also does it again around 6pm as again it's when Imogen has gone to bed and everyone is home and he always goes for my 10 year old daughters trousers so we get one of his toys to distract him with varying success but he's definatley getting better.

 In Alfies case it's definatley excitement and having excess energy which he hasn't learn to channel correctly yet, we've been teaching him to fetch so the running back and forth and then having a little play when he brings back his toy is giving him something to work on. When he goes out for his hourly wee break I take a few mins to play with him too so he can let off steam throughout the day so when he has his freedom he's not too wound up. Doesn't always work tho and he still ends up chasing the cat round 

Hope you can find something that works for you. Just remember it doesn't last forever, thats what I keep telling myslef! 

[Black Red + Yellow]

However it only lasted a week or so and we realised toffee thought he was higher up the pecking order than Fraser. Toffee was just trying to find his place in the family pack.

From when he realised he was bottom of the ladder (although we love him dearly) we have had no problems with aggression.

In our family, we don't have a "pecking order", or a "pack", and Alfie is definitely not at the "bottom of the leader". We all just play different roles, and those roles complement one another.

Same here.....and people don't believe us when they ask which of the dogs is top of the pack and we say 'none of them'........different parts of their personalities shine through at particular times, strengths and weeknesses but I prefer to say that perhaps one of them is bolder in certain situations but everyone is treated the same

[Stirky]

This has been a really interesting thread to read! Lots of great advice so I'm probably just going to repeat whats already been said, but I was on here a few months ago asking the very same thing!

We found that prevention, distraction, loud 'uh-uh's and praise are improving Marty's chomping habits!

So we try not to wear anything that pup would be extra excited about (although he has a penchant for certain unavoidable items like hats and gloves!) and keep our legs up on the sofa. We are much tidier and keep everything we can out of his reach. If nothing else this helped us so much because it reduced the amount of opportunities he had to misbehave which is great if you find yourself constantly telling pup off, which can be quite upsetting for you, frustrating and make everything seem much worse.   

Then distraction if he does get hold of something or starts biting. Loud noises (sneezing even!) or a sharp uh-uh to get his attention and tons of praise for stopping. 

Also when we can see Marty starting to go into crazy mode we will usually let him into the garden so he can run around and expend some of his energy and have fun. He loves it and once he's done he calms down and sits by the back door waiting to come in.

They do learn eventually...such smart dogs. It just takes a bit of time. We've had Marty for two months and his biting is much rarer now and also softer. Also a recent peice of advice we were given (and are now trying, so unsure if it works) is to keep all of his toys in a box he has access to and take him to the box when he's biting or chewing someone/something he shouldn't so that he learns he can only chew things from the box.

It's true that yelping doesn't help. We tried that for a long time but found it made him more excited (sadist!) and he'd always try to chomp our noses...strange dog     

[Ollie]

Hi Chris,

Our 9 week old Ollie is just going through the same. He too doesn't like it if he gets his own way. He has the attention span of a goldfish as easily moves onto something else.

On one of my previous puppy posts a member said "they don't call them crockers for nothing" How true these words were! I seem to end up on the floor playing with him looking at his gnashers. I reckon he sharpens them while were asleep

We have found that the art of distraction works like having a squeaky toy but they are always not around. Just improvise i guess.

Like Stirky, aaahhh aaahhh sounds get him really excited. He knows when he has over stepped the mark and sulks and lays on the floor looking all soppy with his cute ears too.


Cant wait to get him out on the field and let him run his heart out
Good Luck
Roger

[Sheepscheeks]

It's interesting this pack theory thing coming up over and over again. I think that there is a difference between showing a dog the correct way to behave and being dominant over the dog but, however you dress it up, by teaching a dog how you want them to behave does make you a leader of sorts.

I only have one dog so don't have scenarios where one could be dominant over another but, in our house, the humans come first, Freddie second. I don't ignore or neglect him. He does have to fit around our lives, though, not the other way around. I never hit Freddie, I use positive reward based training but I still consider myself to be the "boss", rightly or wrongly.

When he was waking us up at silly o'clock every morning, a friend told me to come down and tell him in no uncertain terms to "be quiet, go back to sleep" - no physical contact involved. It stopped the habit within 3 days. We let Freddie on the furniture - many don't - if we are not leaders, why is it one rule for the dog and another for us? I am playing devil's advocate a bit but I think most dog owners MUST be leaders of their dogs otherwise there would be no boundaries. Being a leader doesn't mean beating a dog or using any other cruelty, in my eyes it means giving the dog direction so it knows what is and what is not acceptable. I think dogs do, and should, fit into a "pecking order".

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

It's interesting this pack theory thing coming up over and over again. I think that there is a difference between showing a dog the correct way to behave and being dominant over the dog but, however you dress it up, by teaching a dog how you want them to behave does make you a leader of sorts.

I only have one dog so don't have scenarios where one could be dominant over another but, in our house, the humans come first, Freddie second. I don't ignore or neglect him. He does have to fit around our lives, though, not the other way around. I never hit Freddie, I use positive reward based training but I still consider myself to be the "boss", rightly or wrongly.

When he was waking us up at silly o'clock every morning, a friend told me to come down and tell him in no uncertain terms to "be quiet, go back to sleep" - no physical contact involved. It stopped the habit within 3 days. We let Freddie on the furniture - many don't - if we are not leaders, why is it one rule for the dog and another for us? I am playing devil's advocate a bit but I think most dog owners MUST be leaders of their dogs otherwise there would be no boundaries. Being a leader doesn't mean beating a dog or using any other cruelty, in my eyes it means giving the dog direction so it knows what is and what is not acceptable. I think dogs do, and should, fit into a "pecking order".

Hmmm, you walk him, feed him, provide a bed, vet treatment and cater to his every need without him having to do anything in return.

Using your theory who's the boss of who?

Personally I view living with dogs as a partnership. I expect certain things from them to make our relationship more enjoyable so I teach them what I want. They expect certain things from me to be happy so I provide it. We both get something from the relationship and we both work as a team with give and take to get it.

If you think about it everything is about their perspective on the world and making them happy, in return they share their lives with us improving ours.

[Sheepscheeks]

Hmmm, you walk him, feed him, provide a bed, vet treatment and cater to his every need without him having to do anything in return.

Using your theory who's the boss of who?

Yes I do see your point. As I say, I was being devil's advocate a bit. We invited Freddie to live with us so, yes, we provide him with what he needs, in return he provides companionship and fun. However, we do expect him to meet our boundaries of behaviour, not decide his own. In that sense we are leaders. If he was the boss then he could do whatever he wanted, when he wanted to do it and demand attention whenever he felt like it.

[Karma]

It's interesting this pack theory thing coming up over and over again. I think that there is a difference between showing a dog the correct way to behave and being dominant over the dog but, however you dress it up, by teaching a dog how you want them to behave does make you a leader of sorts.

 I think dogs do, and should, fit into a "pecking order".

The thing is that "pack theory" doesn't mean just fitting in to a "pecking order" - pack theory seeks to explain all human/dog interaction by ensuring that the human fills the roll of pack leader, through a series of (in a lot of instances, misguided) training methods.  Some of the aspects of pack theory training I do use, not to be pack leader, but because there are safety issues - I don't let Honey charge through the front door ahead of me, not to enforce some kind of artificial pecking order, but because it's not safe.    However I couldn't care less whether I eat before or after her - what is important is that she doesn't steal our food from our hands.
I don't force Honey to do something, I help her learn and she wants to please me (partly for pleasing me's sake, but mainly for the cheese!!) - so it's very much a partnership. 
Elements of pack theory can do seriously damaging - the suggestion that you should force your dog to submit (roll onto it's back) daily for example (though I have spoken to someone who claims that this is good - her dog voluntarily "submits" to her all the time, in her eyes showing the dog accepts it's place at the bottom of the pack - personally I think the dog has trained the human very well in this case, as to reinforce this submission, she always gives him a fantastic tummy rub!!!!  ) - anything that leads to confrontation really isn't the way to go with dog training, imo.

I do think we can learn a lot from wolf packs - but genuine ones, rather than the captive/forced groups that were originally studied.  In the wild wolves live in family groups - the parents are the alpha couple and the offspring respect their status because they are the providers.  There isn't a daily power struggle, and the alpha pair do not maintain their status by force, just mutual respect... 

People who disagree with pack theory do not claim that dogs don't need any boundaries - in fact clear, consistent boundaries are essential for a dog to understand the world we make it inhabit - but these boundaries form part of a partnership rather than a dominant power play.

[Helen]

I'm not sure Jarvis read his employee contract    we decided that as he was a bit slow in picking up his reading that we'd treat him as a dog and guide him by showing him the behaviours we would like  that would most reward him the most and please us - whether his rewards be food, a walk, a cuddle, playing, retrieving - whatever....

we're not dogs, and they're not humans - it's up to us to manage a relationship with our dogs that leave them fulfilled and happy - of course there are other ways to do this than we have chosen but I would like my dogs 'rewards' in life to be as positive as possible 

there's no way we're in a pack - we're a different species and I think that to think our dog thinks we're an 'alpha' dog is a bit derogatory to their intellect    And as to who is 'boss' - when it comes down to it I pick up his poo.  Nuff said