Wont go into chill out in her crate PLUS snapping

[Sarah1985]

 I would never suggest anyone leave a child and a puppy unattended.    

You,ve got no way of knowing exactly what happened in your absence to say what caused her to lash out.

[Nicola]

You're saying yourself you know that she shouldn't be disturbed when she's trying to get some peace and sleep so really it's not Jess's fault that she has to keep telling you the only way she knows how that she does not like being touched when she's trying to rest. You really are risking her escalating her behaviour in this situation, she is going from growling to snapping to biting because you are not listening to her warnings. Also I would never leave a small child and a dog alone together even for a few minutes, anything can happen, as you've just found - you have no way of knowing what Josh actually did to her. If the children aren't at an age where they can follow instructions to leave Jess alone they should not be left unattended with her, for all of their safety.

[chrisUK263]

You're saying yourself you know that she shouldn't be disturbed when she's trying to get some peace and sleep so really it's not Jess's fault that she has to keep telling you the only way she knows how that she does not like being touched when she's trying to rest. You really are risking her escalating her behaviour in this situation, she is going from growling to snapping to biting because you are not listening to her warnings. Also I would never leave a small child and a dog alone together even for a few minutes, anything can happen, as you've just found - you have no way of knowing what Josh actually did to her. If the children aren't at an age where they can follow instructions to leave Jess alone they should not be left unattended with her, for all of their safety.

Sometimes the lashing out isnt even whe she's sleeping the other day she was just stood near me and the girl went to stroke her and she began to growl so I told the girl to just turn away and move away and I did the same to ignore her. I'm going to try doing the exchanges all the time now because I can't keep on going like this.

Usually the growling comes from her having something she shouldn't in this situation should I use an A grade treat such as chicken and sausage to lure her away with the command "Off" ?

I understand from her point of view why she's doing it but in some situation I just don't know what to do. Usually I just stay calm and try lure her away.

[Nicola]

Staying calm and swapping things you don't want her to have is a good idea. If she has something she shouldn't have offer her a treat instead and use whatever command you've chosen 'leave'/'give' etc. Try getting the children to give Jess her food - supervised of course. They can ask her to sit and put her bowl down for her. They can also give her treats so that she builds up good associations with them. You really are going to have to monitor and control the children's interactions with her carefully though. If you do a search for some of Hurtwood Dogs posts you'll find some good advice on managing children and puppies.

[Jeanette]

You've had some good advice on this thread.    Going back to your original thread about the crate and her barking if you go off to have a shower etc.    

Going back to basics here and am not trying to teach you suck eggs here but do you give her a kong stuffed with something good to keep her occupied in her crate or is it a case of just putting her in in it and then listening to her bark?

With regards to having something she shouldn't, I've never known any guarding around food or objects because I've always offered something in exchange - its easier IMO to not start the guarding off of objects in the first place.  

As for children well they need supervising at all times, I had my first cocker when my son was 2 and our second one who is still a puppy whilst my son is still only 5 - they are supervised at all times.    

Puppies don't want fussing all the time, just because someone wants to stroke a puppy doesn't mean the puppy has to oblige everytime, the rules in our house are that my son never ever goes over to Quinn if he is laying down looking like he is sleeping even though he looks cute and looks like he needs making a fuss off.   I always say to my son, call him and if he comes then you can fuss him, if he doesn't come over then don't bother going over to him.    The majority of the time, Quinn wants a fuss but if he doesn't come over then its obvious he doesn't want stroking or messing with because he is tired.

As for actually sleeping then no-one goes near - "let sleeping dogs lie".  

She is only young and it will go better if managed at this early age.      Anyway a bit concerned about your comment that you can't keep going on like this - she is only 5 months old.    Please keep posting as a lot of members have been through different scenarios.     x

[Karma]

Please be aware that a child reaching out to stroke a dog can be very intimidating for a dog - they automatically go to pat the top of the head - the dog can't see the hand at that point and can be nervous about what is happening.
My adult dog really doesn't like being fussed on the top of the head by anyone other than me and OH... I always encourage any children who want to fuss her to first give her a treat, and then fuss her under the chin. 
Also, from your previous posts, you have from time-to-time used "hands on" methods to deal with negative behaviour (holding her on her back, picking her up to put her somewhere and holding her still until she relaxes) - all of this will make her feel hands approaching her is something to be wary of. 

I think you do need to go back to basics on crate training - give her all her food in there (unless you or the children are handfeeding her to improve trust) - give her lots of yummy treats in there.
I also think you need to be training her to relax more... again looking back on all the posts, it sounds like you are trying very hard to keep her busy and occupied, which is great, but often puppy owners forget the other side of the equation (that relaxing is good too) and so a puppy learns never to switch off (this will be made even worse if she is disturbed by children when she is relaxing) - reward times of quiet - let her know that this is a good thing and something to be encouraged.  Even now, when our nearly 4 yr old dog is lying quietly a will occassionally tell her she is good, and if I happen to have a treat nearby, I'll sometimes throw her a treat - I don't want her to think that by being good all that happens is that she is ignored! 

[Darwin]

Hi.  I hope your son is OK

Darwin is our 1st family dog and is now 2yr and 3 months and my son will be 12yr this summer., so probably a similar age to your son. I do still have to remind my son that if Darwin in alseep he must be left alone.  Until Darwin was 9months or more I would never leave him and my son alone in the same room.  It was a pain, but it worked.  My son was a responsible 9 yr old, but it ensured that all play sessions were supervised and helped them form a really strong bond, and that my son was never scared of Darwin. If I was leaving the room, even for 2 mins I would put Darwin either in the kitchen or in his crate.  Now they both know the boundaries when playing, frequently I'll come back into the lounge to find my son lying flat on the floor with Darwin happily standing on top of him.

[Joyce]

A lot of people might not like this, but as a breeder and taking in the responsibility of a breeder reading this thread if I was the breeder of this dog I would say that the dog is not suitable for your family and have the dog returned to me before this situation gets out of hand and you have children that will be frightened of dogs also the dog will think this is normal behaviour and get really out of control, another question how old are your children.

[mlynnf50]

I agree with most of this, but surly any dog that is breaking the skin of a person needs to be watched carfully and if I were you I would put the dog in the crate everytime you leave the room until she learns some manners.
  I understand what is being said about when she is asleep you should not go near her and if we were hard and fast asleep we wouldn't like it, but I am sure most of us would not jump up and thump the person waking us up, which in theory that is what she is doing.  She has to learn what is acceptable and what is not.  This may come with time and Patience

She is only very young and when they are tired they can get very grumpy, I would just keep the children away for a while.

Good luck x

[Nicola]

The puppy does have to learn acceptable behaviour but she is not acting like this out of badness or to be 'rude', she's communicating that she's not comfortable with certain things in the only way she can, and she has escalated her behaviour to biting as her previous warnings of growling and snapping were ignored, or worse, she was physically held down when she did this. I think that everyone involved here needs to learn acceptable boundaries of behaviour, not just the dog. There is some good advice on this thread but it needs to be followed if anything is going to change.  

[Mel]

I did send you some things to try but I'm not sure if you did as you never answered.

I am going to say this; I could/can stroke or even pick up my sleeping dogs if required. This is due to desensitisation which is what my PM was about. So, in all truth why I can see everybodies reasoning for letting sleeping dogs lie, it doesn't have to be that way. But it requires lots of training. Sorry everyone, not meaning to be a pain, just say it how I see it.

However, in your situation, I agree, 'back to basics'. Your dog is frightened/uncomfortable with being awoken because your dog is unsure what it will experience upon waking.

Do you hand feed your dog? This is such a great way of getting a dog used to hands. Another trick I've used is to gently approach a sleeping pup, stroke it so's to wake it whilst having a high value treat in the other hand stuck right under their nose. Which means as the do wakes it's picking up on the treat, rather than growling in the first instance. Therefore it associates being awoken with something pleasent.

But all this is a slow process. My dog has SA and I worked hard every day and there is some glimmer of hope. I put him in positions where although he is not petrified, his comfort level is reduced. But with positive praise and treats, he is slowly learning being seperated from me is quite good.

Try not to dispair, but what you don't want, as someone said, is to have children who are frightened of dogs and also a dog wrongly labelled as aggressive.

[PennyB]

The puppy does have to learn acceptable behaviour but she is not acting like this out of badness or to be 'rude', she's communicating that she's not comfortable with certain things in the only way she can, and she has escalated her behaviour to biting as her previous warnings of growling and snapping were ignored, or worse, she was physically held down when she did this. I think that everyone involved here needs to learn acceptable boundaries of behaviour, not just the dog. There is some good advice on this thread but it needs to be followed if anything is going to change.  

I agree - dogs this age are still learning and also start pushing boundaries (along with their owners' patience) which can become a shock to owners after initial puppyhood - but they need to be taught with patience not to do this and in a positive way just as others in the family have to be taught to respect the dog as well and their space.

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Chris, you've posted an awful lot now on this problem and you keep coming up with logistical reasons as to why you're not taking our advice .  I'm sorry to say this, but based on all your previous posts and this one, I'm beginning to get a nagging doubt that your home is the right one for Jess. A number of forum members (including myself) have spent a lot of time suggesting ways of managing the conflicts that keep happening and suggested that you keep Jess and the kids separate other than for supervised play only at the moment. You've chosen not to do that. The kids are getting bitten and Jess is becoming increasingly defensive and stressed - and it's likely that all these incidents will be ingraining her defensive behaviour. It sounds like you are frequently leaving her in situations that are making her very uncomfortable and not supervising her with the kids. She's not going to improve unless you change the way you are doing things. Leaving her alone in 'unsafe' areas of the house where she can steal food (pretty much every dog I know would take food out of open cupboards) and then just telling her to 'leave it' without offering her something more valuable as a swap, will just make her guarding behaviour worse and set back any positive training you are doing with that problem also She is only 5 months old and I wouldn't expect a 'leave it' command to be solid until a dog is much much older - particularly where high value possesions are concerned.

Puppies are very very hard work but this is a long term thing - she is so so young still and I really feel you are expecting far too much from her (and the children) at this stage. It's likely you will have to put a lot more careful work into her for at least another year (plus) before she starts to mature and settle. You CAN NOT expect children to help train a young pup or be responsible for her when you're not around, particularly one that is developing behaviour problems through it's environment. Children do not have the life skills, consistency, patience or restraint required to manage a difficult puppy. Children also move and behave in a very different and more unpredictable way than adults which can put dogs and puppies on edge - this could also explain why she has snapped even if the little boy said he didn't do anything, it could just be the way he moves that's putting her on edge.  I really don't understand why you continue to leave them unsupervised after everything that's happened? It's extremely irresponsible towards both the children and the puppy.

In my honest opinion you need to change how you are managing her, listen properly to the good advice you are being given - doing building or DIY work on top of everything else at the moment making your house even less puppy friendly is absolutely crazy right now. If you are serious about keeping this puppy and nurturing a wonderful family dog then you have to prioritise managing her and the kids properly until she is a lot lot older and put a lot of time into positive training. Otherwise, I really think you'd be best contacting her breeder or a rescue to help with a re home before she develops further behavioural problems that will make her very difficult to re home I'm sorry to sound so harsh but I think you're running out of time to start addressing this properly. Unless you accept the size and seriousness of the job you have here I really think it would be best for all of you if you considered finding her a new home.

To give you an idea, my dogs are now 4yrs and 6yrs and my children are 8yrs and 2yrs (but both children have ALWAYS lived around dogs from birth and are very natural with them). I don't have to supervise constantly now for lots of reasons (not least that the dogs are older and have been well managed around kids all their lives) but I still always know where they all are and if I need to nip upstairs for any length of time I still separate them. I've NEVER had a snap, bite or even growl incident with any of my 3 dogs (2 from pup and an older rescue) where the kids are concerned because I've never let it get to a stage where it could happen. My current cocker would definitely have behaved as you are describing Jess if I'd left him loose with kids at that age as he was a nervous puppy and very defensive, but I didn't and he's now very chilled out around them and not at all stressed by any amount of boisterous 8yr old boys or mischievous 2yr olds. The children have had as much 'training' as the dogs and they all know how to ask them nicely for balls/toys etc and praise and reward when they are given them. So my pup who was a serious 'guarder' now gets a lot of pleasure from giving up his loot to any of us They can also all walk past him when he's eating etc etc where as when he was the same age as Jess, if he was eating and I even walked in the room he'd freeze and growl to warn me away. We were just sensible with him, took the pressure off him and put a lot of hard work into helping him learn to trust us, and enjoy us. I wasn't confident in him around the kids until he was about 2yrs old himself and he's brilliant now

Having said all that, I still wouldn't ever abuse the trust he now has in us or put him in a position where he might feel threatened by the kids.. but that's life with family dogs and kids.

[Mel]

What a fantastic post, Hannah! Some excellent points addressed.

[Joules]

Agree with Hannah - you have been given a lot of excellent advice.  If you want to keep Jess and make her a happy member of your family, then you must take it