Biting, a light bulb moment

[JeffD]

Last night Teal really went into a real bad sod mode, her biting was really out of hand the more I said no the quicker she flew back with jaws open and snapping, then I had the light bulb moment she was responding to the NO command but as she understood it not as I understood.
The more I said NO the more excited she was, she has obviously over the last 4 weeks associated the NO command as go ahead lets play biting.

I stood up turned my back on her to ignore her for a while I thought about it, Teal thought this was a good time to practice leaping of the settee and she bit my bum in mid flight. OK time out now before I loose my temper. I grabbed some treats and encouraged her into the crate to give myself 5 Min's to think.

A couple of weeks ago she met my daughters JRT for the first time and tried the biting game with him, he soon had her on her back while growling at her neck, please note Bailey the JRT is a great dog and he didn't bite her just told her in dog speak what was acceptable behaviour. Teal responded to this action by jumping on him all paws and licking him but had immediately stopped the biting Bailey found this quite acceptable and just ignored her puppy antics.

So here we go I thought, I let Teal out of the crate called her up on the settee and started to play with her using one of her toys this went well for 2 or 3 minutes before she went  back into biting mode as soon as I felt a hard bite I rolled her over onto her back put my mouth to her face and did my Bailey growl impersonation a pretty good one at that. I sat back up and Teal immediately came back at me paws up and licking just like she did with Bailey I continued to play with her and as soon as she started to get a bit over the top with biting I offered a low quiet growl and bingo the biting changed to mouthing.

I told my OH to try the growl the next time Teal gets out of hand, I will await the outcome with baited breath as Sue's practice growls were more like a mouse in distress  

I do not think this will be any sort of miracle cure, but I am  annoyed with myself that I took so long to realise what had gone wrong

 

[MacTavish Boys]

I am sorry, but you are not a dog, this is definitely not the right way to teach him good manners  you could find, that he will become hand shy. pinning a dog down on its back and growling at it is not the way to go. I am sure that someone will come along very soon and give you some tips, using positive reinforcements 
Stephanie, George and Hamish xxx

[Sula]

Have you seen the book by Turid Rugaas and called On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals? I have it on the ipad from Amazon and she describes the signals that dogs use with each other and she also uses them to alm the dogs down. I am not sure she has used a growl yet, but it is true that humans can utilise the same methods that dogs do. There are much more experienced people on here though and they can help with this.

[8 Hairy Feet]

She also has a website
linky here;
www.canis.no/rugaas/
steffxxx

[jaybee]

I was with you when you said it clicked that she doesn't understand no as you understand it, because that is very true! She doesn't. It's a long hard slog in the puppy days, I got so tired and frustrated and cried a few times feeling we were getting no where. I'd say you handled it perfectly right until the pinning down and growling. With time and consistency you will have a lovely dog.

But like the others have said, these methods are pretty dangerous and not supported by COL at all. We aren't dogs. I'm pretty sure Bingley doesn't think I'm a dog! Positive training really is the way to go,

[JeffD]

Hi Stephanie,

The point of my post was not that the growl was a cure, my point was how long it took me to pick up what had gone wrong which was my fault not the dogs.
I did not pin teal on her back I just rolled her over and put my face close to hers something she is used to when she is playing with me, this time I added the growl. Teal is not a sensitive dog by any means I have had dogs in the past that were and I would not have done this, this was a one off I just needed to change from the No command and needed to try and get this over to her quick.

I am not hard with my dogs I always choose positive training, I have seen to many good dogs ruined through what was once thought acceptable punishments I do not use punishment at all, I did not punish Teal I spoke to her as another dog would. I can assure you Teal was not worried about this at all, she just didn't understand what I meant by the sound No. Now I have switched to a bit of growl sound rather than a No sound she understands.
I have handled gun dogs for over 35 years and I have never had a pup that was so bite orientated but then again this is the first time I have had a puppy in the house on its own, in the past there has been other dogs around and I guess they have helped educate the pups in biting behaviour.
I think it far better to get the message over than to have myself and my OH getting worked up and upset with the risk of us losing our tempers and constantly shouting or crating the dog.

I am not advocating others to do what I have done but it worked for me and it also worked for Teal, she is still play biting which as far as I am concerned is all part of normal puppy behaviour but the intensity of the bite has dropped to what I think is acceptable for a puppy of her age and I expect / hope that it will disappear as she gets older which has always happened with previous pups.

I do know I am not a dog but I will always try to think like a dog when it comes to training if I am struggling with a problem. It has worked for me in the past and I have had some really good working dogs, If I can do something in dog speak that works I will.

[MacTavish Boys]

Like the others have said read up on Turid Rugaas her books are very informative and advocate positive training i certainly don't think putting your head close to a dogs face and growling at it, is the way to go. If you feel yourself getting worked up, walk away, then you will not have to resort to shouting or losing your temper. Don't forget she is still a puppy and it is up to us to show them calm and control   
Stephanie, George and Hamish xxx

[piph]

I must admit that we have changed from saying 'No' to saying a deep 'Ahhhh' to Ozzy when he jumps up, then ask for a 'sit' and as soon as he's down and sitting again he gets a treat or a stroke and told 'good boy'. 

After all, 'No' is just a word, but Ahhhh is a deep noise a bit like a growl just to make him aware that what he's doing is not acceptable, and, by and large it does work, and it usually stops him doing what he's doing and gives us an extra second to distract him with a toy or a treat. 

I know it's probably not really the 'accepted' way to do things in the 'positive training' way of thinking, and I wholeheartedly agree that to ignore bad behaviour and reward good is the best way to go, but there are times when it is dangerous to ignore the behaviour and you have to stop a puppy doing something immediately, sometimes from a distance, and a loud, deep noise is the best way. 

Just as an example - I was carrying a hot casserole dish from the oven to the worktop the other evening, when Ozzy leapt up at it - I couldn't ignore it as it was too dangerous, for me and for Ozzy, and as I had my hands full, I couldn't distract him with a toy - I did turn my back at the same time as I yelled 'Ahhh' at him, but he did get the message and neither of us ended up getting burnt -  to my mind that was the object of the exercise.

It's just another 'tool' in the box of tricks to help Ozzy become a joy to have around, and not a nightmare.
 

[MacTavish Boys]

I too often use the Ahhhh word

[Snoo]

With Clover, for any unacceptable behaviour I just said, 'Ah-Ah' quite sharply - it made her stop and look at me and I then directed her to a toy of her own, or whatever I wanted her to do instead of the unacceptable behaviour and that worked quite well. With biting attacks, I used to make a hurt puppy noise, and it made her stop in her tracks and sometimes she would look quite worried and maybe give me a lick. I would then give her a little stroke to let her know there were no hard feelings and then direct her to a toy to 'attack', instead of me! She soon got the hang of not hurting me, but she has always been a very 'biddable' and eager to please little thing so perhaps that wouldn't work for a more boisterous, headstrong type of doggy! Have to say I wouldn't put my face anywhere near a biting puppy whether it was on its back or not! 

[SophieBlueRoanLover]

My dad used to clear his throat really loudly and say "thank you Freddie" in a really really deep voice with our last cocker - this seemed to do the trick.

In my last training session we were taught how to teach "leave it" to your pup - I think this is really helpful to persevere with - Henry even drops stolen socks (as he thinks he'll get a treat; mind you, he's not that possessive (yet) or that beastly (mostly)).

[piph]

My dad used to clear his throat really loudly and say "thank you Freddie" in a really really deep voice with our last cocker - this seemed to do the trick.

In my last training session we were taught how to teach "leave it" to your pup - I think this is really helpful to persevere with - Henry even drops stolen socks (as he thinks he'll get a treat; mind you, he's not that possessive (yet) or that beastly (mostly)).

We've taught Ozzy 'swapssies'  - if he drops what he's got in his mouth he gets a treat!  It was working quite well - until he discovered that if he swallowed it, I thought he'd dropped it, and gave him a treat!    Then I discovered that he was also tucking stuff in his cheek to get the treat!    It's usually small stuff, small stones and leaves and stuff that he tries to hang on to.  Now he doesn't get the treat unless I can see something on the floor and can pick it up first!  Little devil!   

[PennyB]

what dogs do to other dogs is very different from what we might do to dogs in the same situation, as often we don't see the subtle nuances of behaviour that go with it which is why when we do the same as another dog it goes wrong.