CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Jackie on March 08, 2011, 09:20:18 AM
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Hi I am new to this forum and just had to find a cocker spaniel forum to post about our problem.
Toby is our 15 week old (red) cocker spaniel puppy, we also have two other dogs, seven and eight, one being a blue roan cocker, the other being a X collie / springer. We have had absolutely no problems with raising our older dogs apart from the usual nipping and biting of bedding etc that all puppies do, however our new pup Toby has a very vicious streak in him, not all the time but particularly when picking him up, getting him ready for his walk, taking his harness, collar off etc, trying to retrieve something from his mouth that he brings in from the garden, all this goes far beyond the usual puppy behaviour. Last week he gave me such a bite on my hand that I had to have a Tetanus injection and was prescribed penicillin tablets although they were not needed in the end as although my hand still has some swelling and bruising, did not become infectious.
To cut a long story short, I am now very wary, even at times fearful of him, whenever he starts getting into his rage mode, I will not pick him up, even to put him back inside his cage if he is naughty, I still will not get him ready for walks, my OH (other half) has to do that for me, even he is fearful of him at times when he handles him.
We have only recently heard and read about solid blacks and red cocker spaniels having this so-called rage gene, my question is, do we keep him if he has it, I am 60 next week my OH 66 and do not want a wild animal in our pack, Toby has been put in his place by our other two dogs a few times but sometimes I feel he is fearless and wants to be top dog.
We start a course of clicker training /socialization next week, we tend to see that through, but our main concern is, if he has this gene rage, we both feel that no amount of training will calm him down, that he will take this into adulthood. I also want to state that until recently both of us had no Idea that red or black cockers can carry this gene, if we had of known this we would have had second thoughts on getting him, apart from all this we still have hope that he will turn out to be a lovable adult dog, and It would break our hearts to have to get rid of him ( re-home) but we may well have no choice in this matter, please advise.
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Genuine Rage is actually very rare. Have a search for other posts on this topic, as this will further help you.
Dont forget your pup is still a baby really. Hopefully someone else will come along who has more knowledge to advise you, but please take note that Rage is actually very rare.
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As Tillydog says, genuine rage is incredibly rare, and red cockers are generally no more aggressive than any other colour... ;)
What you are describing is very common puppy behaviour - if you read some of the threads on the puppy board you will find many, many similar tales..
There seem to be several issues that need addressing here, so I'll try to seperate them.
1. General puppy biting - you mentioned this in passing, in that the other biting goes beyond this - how are you dealing with it? It is generally recommended to distract a pup with something they can bite, as biting is an important learning experience for pups.
2. Picking him up - sorry, but the simple solution here is don't pick him up - he is telling you he doesn't like it. If you need to move him regularly, you can attach a houseline, so you can guide him (combine this with a lure treat, so you are not dragging him). A crate shouldn't be used as punishment, so he shouldn't be going in there when he is "naughty" - a crate should be somewhere fantastic, that he loves and wants to relax in.
3. Putting on harness/collar - this is something a lot of pups struggle with. Try using treats (if necessary make it a 2 person job - one person feeds treats while the other puts on the collar/harness etc. In the meantime train a reliable wait - once this is solid, you can put one treat on the floor, ask him to wait, attach his collar/harness etc (while he is focussed on the treat) and then let him get the treat - we did this with Honey for months before she was entirely happy with being handled in this mannner. You should also get him used to being handled in general - when he is calm and relaxed, gently lift and look at each ear and paw, giving him a treat for each - he will soon enjoy this, and it will make grooming/drying etc much less stressful.
4. Getting something from him - again, don't make it a confrontation, or you will create a dog who will either guard stuff from you, or will eat items to make sure you don't take them away. When he approaches you with something in his mouth, tell him how fantastically clever he is (he's doing what he was bred to do - carry and retrieve), then get a treat and swap the item. If it's something that isn't in any way dangerous for him to carry, let him carry it for a bit - then he won't learn that bringing you stuff leads to him losing it! You can also, over time, train a reliable drop, so you won't always need to swap for a treat! ;)
5. Your other dogs - he is still just a pup and is going to push their buttons for a while - they will tell him when enough is enough, but he is unlikely to learn until he is a bit bigger. Older dogs are generally very good with pups and will put them in their place as appropriate - unless your older dogs are really fed up, just let them tell him what is what. However, once he is an adult, there is no guarantee what their heirarchy will be - if he is a forceful personality, he may become "top dog" among your dogs (many people find one dog is "top" in one situation, and another is "top" in another, so it's not a static thing) - again, unless there are major issues, you are best letting them sort this out themselves...
Hope this helps!!
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First of all welcome to COL :D we are a very friendly bunch and I'm sure you will find lots of info and support on here to help you with Toby.
Rage syndrome is very rare and not just specific to cockers, so the chances of Toby having it is very remote. There are lots of threads on here about it. Just put Rage Syndrome into search.
What you describe is a puppy that has learnt that by biting and growling at you, you will stop trying to prevent him doing what he wants to do, ie get his own way. You say that you are starting clicker training soon, do you already use positive reinforcement with Toby? How do you use his cage, is it his safe place or for isolating him ie sleep, when you're going out and punishment? Does his harness go over his head? Rosie my tricolour hated having her harness put on as a puppy and would struggle and bite. She was my mothers dog and my uncle used to take her out. It became a battle everytime they went out, he was determined she wasn't going to win and so would manhandle her into her harness. The way we got round it was to hold the harness infront of her luring her through with a treat. We also changed the harness to the clip on type.
If he's naughty, remove yourself from him, walk out of the room, don't speak to him, just leave him to calm down. To be honest what you're your describing is confrontational behaviour by Toby and yourselves. ;) It's really not about him wanting to be topdog, like a child its about him wanting to do what he wants to do and seeing what he can get way with.
To get something off him, swop it for something better. Its the same as if you had a piece of cake and I suddenly came up to you told you to leave it and then put my hands in your mouth to retrieve it. How would that seem to you?
HTH and I'm sure others will be along soon with some more tips.
Would love to see some pictures of Toby.
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There is no 'rage gene' in solid coloured Cockers. True rage syndrome is very, very rare and actually quite little understood, some believe it to be a form of epilepsy. It can also affect any type of dog of any colour, it's not something that is just seen in solid coloured Cockers. It's true that years back some Cockers did display poor temperaments but this was mainly to do with over- and poor breeding and as red and black were very popular colours some of these badly bred dogs did have temperament issues (but not necessarily rage!). If you have got your puppy from a good breeder who breeds for temperament and health then you have little to worry about in this respect these days.
Unfortunately because of this association though things that in other breeds would be labelled as normal puppy biting/health issues/resource guarding etc. if they occur in a Cocker, particularly a solid coloured one, get mistakenly labelled as 'rage' when really they are not. Cockers are also not always the soft little dogs that their appearance may make people think, they can be stubborn and wilful and some can be very bitey and persistent puppies but it doesn't mean that they have rage. True 'rage-type' aggression will come completely out of the blue - the dog could be asleep and then suddenly attack - what you've described with your pup all seems to have particular triggers or confrontation points and with time, patience and the correct methods should all be very workable.
Regarding your pup, if you have a look on the 'Puppies' board here you will see a lot of threads posted by people worried that their puppies are abnormally bitey or 'aggressive'. It's true that some pups/dogs are more persistent and wilful than others, they will push the boundaries and some don't like confrontation - things like picking them up, taking items out of their mouths can be quite confrontational to a dog and some aren't comfortable with this and will tell you so the only way they can. I would try to perhaps be a little less hands-on with him; don't pick him up if he doesn't like it, use treats to swap for items that you don't want him to have, use treats to make him associate having his collar and harness put on and taken off with good things happening. Sometimes pups get overtired and can be very snappy, at these times it's best to not interact with them too much or try to pick them up etc. It's best to give him a time out and let him calm down. If you use a crate this should never be used to punish a puppy but you can use it as a safe place where he can go to get some peace and quiet and calm down if he needs it. Puppies need firm and consistent boundaries but it's best not to get into outright confrontations with them.
With your other dogs unless it's a major issue I would let them sort out their relationships themselves, they are much better at communicating with each other than we are! It's entirely possible that the youngest one may end up being 'top dog'. I have 3 working Cockers aged 6.5, 4 and 2 and it's the youngest one who is very much the boss dog. They all get on fine but since she was 9 or 10 months old the two older dogs have deferred to her on pretty much everything. She's also a solid red although she's a working type Cocker, she is a lovely dog with a fantastic temperament (she's in my avatar photo).
I started typing this ages ago but I'm at work, I would say that the previous posts pretty much cover what I've said!
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Hi and welcome from another newbie....
I've found your thread very interesting as what you have described is exactly the same as our rescue Cocker started life. We've had Louis for nearly a year, he's a blue roan show cross worker and is now nearly 18 months old.
His original owners from what I've been told struggled with all the things you have described and he took all his temper tantrums and teeth (!) out on his female owner. They too were a similar age and had previously owned dogs so were also experienced but struggled with Lou. Lou picked up on this and quickly learnt that they were afraid of him which he used to his advantage and used his teeth and their fear of him to get his own way.
He too hated having his collar touched/lead being put on and it became a battle. Ditto with being picked up
As others have said, true rage is very rare, however Lou is a confident, forward dog and was (is!) confrontational. He's wilful and likes to have his own way!
You'll know by the word rescue and the fact that he's with me now that they decided to let him go. One of the bravest things that they could have done for him as yes he is a handful and he has bitten me a few times but he's a work in progress, is a lovable, eager little dog and has lots to give and I think he's worth the work. He has however learnt that confrontation and teeth worked so we've had to work on this and reinforce all his good behaviours. I'm sure that if they had received all the info that others have already provided here then the outcome would have been different and he would have stayed with them as he was only the same age as Toby and it is workable, he's still a baby.
Lou is our third cocker and our 2 year old George whilst biddable now could also be a horror at Toby's age, also liked to use his teeth and would be quite 'in your face' and wouldn't back down, my hand seemed to always have puppy marks on it! We worked on it though and he however calmed down and now at 2 is a lovely dog, one I wouldn't be without.
Good luck with Toby
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We once had a blue roan cocker puppy who managed to get her teeth on my 12 year old sister's ear and ripped it - she cried all the way to A&E because she didn't want my mum to put her to sleep (even thuogh she was in pain herself)
I also once fostered a very confident 17 week old blue roan cocker who had been owned by 1st time owners and because of his confidence they felt out of their depth - true he wasn't an easy puppy but he also wasn't a bad puppy either. He also drew blood on me on a couple of occasions when he was pushing his luck.
There is plenty of good advice on here and please put this idea of rage at the back of your mind so you can move on with your pup.
Pups need clear boundaries + they also need heaps of patience and positive training. If in doubt walk away from him sometimes for a couple of minutes.
The boys I find (ones I've fostered anyway) can be a bit full on as well - lots of short training exercises can help if only to refocus his teeth and keep his brain occupied but keep them short and fun - at his age you will have to repeat a lot of things as he has a small lemmony brain. Doesn't matter what you train him for as long as it stimulates the right bits of his brain. Some games are also good ways to train them.
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PLEASE listen to the excellent advise you have been given on this thread by Karma, Nicola and PennyB. As someone who rehabs cockers and just yesterday heard of a dog who was due to come in for rehab being PTS for "rage". I am just so cut up about it. Rage is so rare most vets and few behaviourists have ever seen one case of it, never mind 2 in one day like the vet yesterday claimed (or so the owner said) ph34r
Karma has given you excellent advice - be guided by it.
BUT if you feel you do not have the breed experience necessary to deal with this lad (who may well be a very 'difficult' pup but he is still just a pup) and you do decide to rehome contact a responsible rescue who can deal with "stroppy" cockers. Sorry if I've come across as harsh and umsympathetic but I really don't want to see another dog PTS for no good reason. :'(
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Hi Jackie, welcome to the forum. You've had some very good advice and I agree with everything that's been said :luv:
All I'll add is that I know what a shock it is having a horror pup after a normal one.. my horror pup was a blue roan and very different to the very sweet solid gold cocker I'd owned previously ;) :luv:
We were all bitten and attacked relentlessly until he was about 9 months old. He guarded toys and food ferociously and bit my sons legs until they bled.. If we ever said 'No' to him he screamed and attacked us again - you get the picture :lol:
The techniques Karma has detailed above for you do work and it's so important with a dog/pup that doesn't like confrontation and/or is prone to guarding to avoid anything that makes them uncomfortable and lead or lure them then reward them :luv: My horror pup has grown into a wonderful adult dog that doesn't guard his food anymore and my children can happily ask him to give up toys etc with no problem (we spent ages swapping toys for tasty treats and praising him like mad and he loves giving us things now :luv:).
It's a frustrating few months but if you're happy to learn how to handle him differently to the others and 'up your game' so to speak I'm more than sure you'll end up with a wonderful adult dog that totally trusts you and that you can trust too. :luv:
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Another one here who agrees with the good advice you have got previously. If I have learnt anything from keeping dogs it is that there is no one size fits all and it can be depressing and worrying when you compare one puppies behaviour directly with another. I am sure if you follow the advice you will come out the other end with a lovely dog, keep going it's worth it. good luck
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Some FAB advice here and no real need for me to add much to it. Only to say I have 6 cockers. 2 golds, 1 red, 2 blacks and 1 blue roan and the most issues I have are with the blue roan and I would never label it rage. I also had a gold cocker in the past that had many behavioural problems and was frequently labelled as having rage, but this was never the case. He was a rescue and all his problems stemmed from this and there were always triggers to his behaviours. He became a lovely boy who I loved to peaces. True rage which like others have said is extremely rare if it even exists at all anymore. PLEASE listen to all this fab advice on here. He sounds like a handful, but they all have very different characters I know mine do and my red boy is my star. ;)
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Fantastic posts people ;)
Owner of a Gold boy here who is a soppy soppy monster.
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I would agree what the others have already said, but just to add that maybe you've forgotten just what hard work puppies can be at times, given that your other dogs are now 7 & 8. A lady near me, in her 60's, lost her 17yr old golden retriever a couple of years ago, & feeling a bit lost without a dog, a few months later got a cocker puppy. She said she'd forgotten just how tiring & at times frustrating bringing up a puppy can be, especially she said, as she'd been nearly 20yrs younger when she'd done it previously!!
Also, if you already have a well behaved cocker, getting a 'naughty' one can be a bit of a shock. Roly, my blue roan is so laid back & loves everybody, so getting a stroppy, obsessive, resource guarding Barkley was a bit of an eye opener to say the least, but he's loads better than when I first got him from his previous owners, altho every now & again he takes it into his head to challenge my daughter (she's 28!), so he gets sent away to sit on his own at either the other end of the room, or in the other room, where he obviously sits & ponders where it all went wrong, & calms down!
Also having a 'mouthy' sprocker, I've found nylabones a godsend - shoving that into her mouth to chew on instead of us helped alot - folding your arms & igoring her didn't work all that well with her, as she then took to pulling on clothes!!
Your pup could also be teething which won't help the biting situation! good luck :D
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Thank you all for your positive responses and very good advice, your feedback has lifted our spirits.
We do distract Toby by using one of his toys, we tend to leave some toys permanently on the floor and try to tempt him away from our slippers, shoe laces, trouser legs etc with one, we have not used treats to tempt him yet, but will definitely give that a try, particularly when putting on his collar/harness. I do understand how he must feel every time we come towards him with the harness ready to force it over his head, I know I would react to it myself, so maybe we should try an alternative, perhaps a step-in.
Yes we do or rather I used to pick him up, I've tried to treat him the same way as my other two (Benji and Megan) the same way they were treated as pups, also the same way I brought up my late 15 year old dog Petra that I lost two years ago, but now I see we need to work on him differently.
He is forever bringing moss or soil in from the garden, the only thing he doesn't seem interested in doing in the garden is his toilet. Where once I would have not hesitated in picking him up and to prise his mouth open to retrieve it (this was when he bit me) I have now learnt my lesson. I have also learnt not to play chase to take it from his mouth, but I do now cringe when I find myself standing back and have to watch/hear him crunching on something undesirable.
I find my self to blame to some extent, I promised My Benji a playmate and used to urge the two to play tug/pulley, but now I realise that that only spurs on his aggression and I guess dominance, so I do not encourage that anymore, which is a shame, maybe later when he is a little older.
We use his cage part for night time sleeping part for punishment/part for rest period when we know he has had his play, had his feed, had his walk etc, I use that time as "me time" so I can relax and get on with what I need to do. We do tend to leave the cage door open, but rarely does he enter it of his own accord, but always closed the door once in.
We brought Toby home at seven weeks old, we purchased him from a reputable "hobby" cocker spaniel breeder of six show-dogs, not working dogs, but we never met the father "stud" which is making me wonder about his temperament, the mother seemed calm the couple of times we saw her.
Yes I do now believe it all comes down to Toby not liking to be "man handled" I also have to be careful now when taking him for walks that young school children dont over excite him as he is quite boisterous and jumps up, but one of my main worries is that he may bite a child, as they dont see what we see, he is just this cute little puppy, and most times that's just what he is. So now I tend to walk him after 9.30 am or after 4.30 pm to avoid this.
Yes I do think that I've forgotten what hard work rearing new pups can be, it all came so easy and naturally seven and eight years ago, there is only seven months between Megan and Benji and we also had Petra who was then around the age of nine herself, but apart from the usual puppy problems, Megan had worms and Benji ripped almost every piece of bedding that we bought for him.
You have all given such good advice, I am so glad I found this site and thank you all for my warm welcome, I can only apologise if I have not responded to everyone's questions.
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He is forever bringing moss or soil in from the garden, the only thing he doesn't seem interested in doing in the garden is his toilet. Where once I would have not hesitated in picking him up and to prise his mouth open to retrieve it (this was when he bit me) I have now learnt my lesson. I have also learnt not to play chase to take it from his mouth, but I do now cringe when I find myself standing back and have to watch/hear him crunching on something undesirable.
Try using a treat (or a favourite toy) to tempt him to swap for what he has in his mouth so it's a positive experience for him because he's getting something better rather than just having his prize taken away. You can then start building this up to work on a solid 'drop' or 'give' command.
Try not to use the crate as a punishment, it's fine to put him in there to wind down and to let you get on with things for a while. If you leave him with a chew or a stuffed Kong it will keep him occupied and build a good association with the crate for him.
I'm glad you feel more positive about things, do have a look back through the threads on the Puppies board, you'll see that a lot of these issues are fairly common and they are definitely not insurmountable. It sounds like you know the kind of things you need to do and I'm sure you'll end up with a very nice boy once he's grown up a bit :D
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You have been given some great advice :D
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You have had excellent advice. I also have had the puppy from hell in Tali and have owned three cockers spanning 27yrs. Sometimes puppyhood can come as a big shock because as experienced owners we sort of know what to expect, but it isn't quite as we remember it! :005:
Useful dvd is Biting by Ian Dunbar from here: http://www.jamesandkenneth.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=dd005
Very interesting seminar which will put ALL of this into perspective. He has other dvd's and books, but this is one that just makes you realise everything stems from bite inhibition.
Welcome to COL :D
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Sometimes puppyhood can come as a big shock because as experienced owners we sort of know what to expect, but it isn't quite as we remember it! :005:
I completely agree. I looked after a friends pup last week while they went to a wedding. I only had a pup this time last year and Id completely forgotten how much looking after they need. Id also forgotten the rule; if you cant see them they're prob up to no good. :005: I was exhasted by the end of the day :005:
Great advice from everyone else. One thing to add is that its easier to teach a puppy to do something rather than not to do something. So try and teach him alternatives to the behaviours you dont like. So if you want your pup to greet people without jumping up teach him to "say hello" command which you can use whenever someone wants to give him some fuss. this can be whatever behaviour you want. For my two it started as a sit with a toy in their mouth. With their bums on the ground they are alot less likely to jump up and with something in their mouth they couldnt possibly nip anyone in excitement. :luv:
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Jackie,
Nicola has given you good advice on the drop command - Bailey used to steal any paper, mail/newspaper anything he could find & eat it. I had some treats ready by the front door and whenever he grabbed the mail would hold the treat out and ask him to 'drop'. As soon as the paper left his mouth he got the treat. It took a while as he's a bit dim ph34r & very excitable when it comes to paper but he's pretty good now! I also agree with what you said about a 'step in harness' Bailey has one that goes over his head when he's at home but when he's staying with his gran he has one he 'walks into' She either places it on the floor and calls him over and he walks into it or puts it on the chair and he puts his front paws in and it clips at his back so no need to go over his head. It's similar to this: http://www.petsathome.com/shop/black-nylon-dog-harness-by-pets-at-home-14253
HTH :D
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Today has been a rather stressful day for me, it all started off with Toby running round in circles in the house, so I said to my OH I shall let him out into the garden and give him the chance of doing his toilet there for a change. Well once in the garden he ran amok putting anything he could get hold of into his mouth, bits from shrubs, bushes, pieces from the ground, we could even here him biting and chewing on something that sounded like grit. Since being bitten from him last week, I will not pick him up nor try to take stuff out of his mouth, nor will my OH, nor will we run around chasing him as I know that is definitely a no no as he will see this as a game. Now the most frustrating thing about this was that after he went indoors, he done the same, ran round in circles, so we gave him a second chance to do his toilet in the garden. You can guess, yes he done exactly the same, he had no interest in doing his poo poos. And you guessed, once indoors, he went straight on the carpet. I was angry, I told OH to put him in his cage,and I told Toby naughty boy, we then had a bit of an argument because OH said he would not have punished him with the cage, so I said, how else are we to punish him, he had no answer to that question, nor have I. Can any one advise please? In hindsight, I now realise that I should not have told him naughty boy, as it was me who all of a sudden had changed the rules from allowing him to do toilet on the carpet and preventing him in the past of going out because I know he has no intentions of going, to all of a sudden I / we are putting our foot down and will not tolerate him using our carpet anymore. I do understand now just how confusing it must be for him.
On this basis I have now ordered a training line that is long enough to reach the end of our small garden, we aim to attach it to his collar and give him the run of the garden, at least this way we should be better able to keep more control over him.
We have used toys, the squeaky sort, but he is far too clever to fall for that one now,. I have used the clicker and treats reward a fair bit today, it does seem to have some effect.
My nurse last week suggested that when he was naughty, we was to emit a sudden sspps type of noise, that worked the first couple of times, it was a strange and sudden noise he wasn't familiar with, but making that same noise now has no effect on him.
On a positive note, Toby does not show any aggression where food is concerned, nor does he show any aggression towards the other dogs if they get near his food food, at least we can be thankful of that.
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He isn't naughty... :-\ You don't need to punish him.
It is far easier to simply distract from or ignore behaviour you don't want, and reward the behaviour you do.
If you are taking him out in the garden for the toilet, keep him on a short lead so he can't get distracted - racing around isn't him being naughty, it's just that there are lots of exciting things in the garden and he will forget that he needed the loo.... once back inside he will remember...
How have you introduced the clicker? What other training are you doing? Are you going to puppy classes?
I wouldn't go down the route of making "ssps" noises - while a noise distraction can work, it doesn't solve the problem, and you end up having to up the ante... but with a pup you could end up frightening them which can cause a lot more problems. We will make some noises to distract our adult dog now, but never something that will scare her, and always follow up with asking her to do something else...
As was said earlier in the thread, you shouldn't use his crate for punishment - it should be a safe haven where he can relax. You shouldn't need to do anything for "punishment". Where possible make sure he doesn't get the opportunity to get things wrong (like putting the lead on before he goes outside for the toilet), distract (with food or toy - something positive) or ignore (get up and walk away from him, so withdraw your attention)... then reward (with praise, toys, treats, being let off the lead to run around like a loon...) when he does things right. :D
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Tbh i can see Toby must be very confused. :huh: Crate's should never be used as punishment. :huh:
If you have been letting Toby go to the toilet on your carpet & then just expect him to start going in the garden, then he needs guidance/training in order to do this. I would go outside with him as often as poss, always use the same words to encourage him & be very patient. I often offer a treat with toilet training pupsters if they are not too quick at 'getting it' :shades:
Personally, i don't think it is safe to attach a long line to his collar unless he is supervised at all times.
As you say your garden is small, perhaps just work on his recall to get him to come in. :-\ A garden to a puppy is a playground, so i can completely understand Toby's behaviour. :D
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Have a read of this article - http://dogscouts.org/Doggie_Outlaws.html (http://dogscouts.org/Doggie_Outlaws.html) - it might give you some more understanding of where Toby is coming from in all this.
I also agree, a long line should be used under supervision, and should ideally be attached to a harness when used outside to prevent injury to the neck.
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Have a read of this article - http://dogscouts.org/Doggie_Outlaws.html (http://dogscouts.org/Doggie_Outlaws.html) - it might give you some more understanding of where Toby is coming from in all this.
What a great article :shades:
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You've been given some great advice, please though can I remind you that at 15 weeks, Toby is still very much a baby and probably has very little control over his bowels and bladder.
I've not had a puppy for many years, but I have had rescue dogs who weren't housetrained and had had years of toileting wherever they were. Always, always, always praise them if they go in the right place (ie the garden) and I don't just mean a quiet "good dog", I mean making them feel like they're the best dog on earth. :cool4: I also reward with a treat, but that's maybe just me.
If they go in the house, just ignore it, don't say anything and clean it up..... after all you don't want your dog to get frightened that its going to get told off for going to the toilet.
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Puppy training can be very frustrating and in the beginning some things can seem to take a long time
I recently fostered 3 cocker puppies of a similar age and just had to go with the flow really re housetraining and everything else - some days they got it and other days I spent cleaning up.
I also feel that your lack of confidence in him could also make some of your problems with him worse.
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Using food for lure and rewarding good behaviour is going to be the very best way to stop him being a whirling dervish and for you both, as Penny says, not show a lack of confidence.
Bite inhibition and socialisation is the key. Maybe you could try luring him to be picked up then drip feed treats like cheese or cooked chicken, whilst holding him to make him associate being picked up with good things.
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What are you feeding him?
Agree with HeatherandBenjy, he is still very young so early days for all of it and a learning curve for you both.
One thing I do remember from puppy days (our memories can be merciful, eh? :005:) was of mine zooming around the garden (certain times of day: the Crazy Hour), and also puppies who could be outside all day and "forget" to toilet till they got inside >:( While it is frustrating, it's par for the course and has to be treated that way.
If I see them doing the "poo dance" or spin (there's usually a lot of body language preceding a poo :005:)I usually say "Oh no, thats outside" in a bit of an urgent voice. If the deed is already done then I just clean it up, but if I catch them in the act I try to get them outside.
I say to them "outside", saying in a certain way every time we go out of the house so they know that when they go through the door, they are now "outside" (Very important to make this distinction to them! It's all of a piece to them, there is no difference between your Oriental rug and the lawn to a dog until you teach it to them)
When we are outside (and during housetraining you will have to be out with him) I say to them "good tinkle" (or wee) or "good potty" (poo- have separate words for each deed) when they happen to do one or the other so they learn the word, then we can progress to asking for it on command. ("Go potty)
But don't punish. Accidents will happen, especially with very young puppies. He may just learn that is is not a good thing to toilet in your presence :-\
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Id suggest you section off an area of the garden whereby he is allowed to play. Keep it a safe area with nothing he can pick up. If you have a puppy pen you could bring this outside with some of his toys. That way he can have his fun and burn off lots of energy without you needing to worry. It natural for puppys to want to run around and play.
Hes not intentionally being naughty. He is just having fun with the things available to him. If you make these things inaccessable (with safe play areas) Im sure you will all be much happier. Once he learnt a "leave" command you can gradually increase the number of "naughty" item available to him and ask him to leave them alone. Right now he doesnt understand the difference between a toy to have fun with and garden items he should be leaving alone. Its a big lesson to learn so take it gradually.
Please dont be too heavy handed with the punishments. Hes very young and still learning if he doesnt understand try and think of positive ways of teaching him how to behave rather than jumping straight to a punishment.
With regards to toilet training, Id suggest you decide now on what rules you want in place for the rest of his life and stick to it. Changing the rules is just going to cause him to be more confused. If the garden if where you want him to go to the toilet take him out on a lead and wait for him to go. Once he has give him masses of paise and a treat. If he has an accident in the house dont make a big deal about it, just make sure you up the number of times you take him out to ensure mistakes dont happen. Stick to this and he'll soon learn.
Good Luck
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I would just like to add that "agressive" behaviour does not necessarily indicate a dominant dog. Tucker displayed ALL of the behaviours that have been mentioned as a puppy...nipping, chasing, biting, growling, etc. as well as food and resource guarding. We too were told by many that Tuck was a "dominant" dog and that he believed he was the leader of the pack. However, we noticed things that made us doubt that. While he growled or guarded, he would shake and his eyes would roll back. He would pee a little while snapping at us. He didn't like strangers or strange places. He would get very wound up very easily (anxiety behaviours). We quickly learned that Tucker is actually a very fearful and timid dog and lacks any confidence. We found a trainer and have been working with her to get Tucker well-socialized and more confident. He still engages in the guarding behaviours but it has gotten much better, especially lately. We have learned to distract Tucker and to praise him loud and long when he does something we approve of. There are still times when he seems to "go crazy" and we have to just wait until he calms down, but they seem to happen less often. We recognize that he feeds off of our emotions as well - if we are high strung or anxious, he becomes worse. When we are calm, he is calm. He is almost two years old and it's been a long road, but we see the potential and know that he will be a wonderful part of our family for a long time. I honestly believe that, because we've had to work harder with Tucker, we love him even more. He's our "special" doggie. :luv:
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Please read all the advice given,i think the problems could be your own causing sometimes,alot of bringing up a puppy is common sense,and knowing how to deal with each situation,lack of knowledge can be detrimental to all concerned.Each dog is an individual with its own personality,i think its wrong to compare the dogs to each other,as what one likes/does the other ones may dislike,etc.Its got nothing to do with colour or genes,just you,needing to learn how to channel the energy he has got into something you are both happy with,teaching him as you go along.I've got solids & Parti's,my red boy is so laid back and cuddly he isnt real,one of my parti's is an absolute nut case,rampaging through the house at 100 miles an hour,they are all just so different.You are only finding it hard because you havent found the right way to deal with it.When you have it will be a piece of cake.
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I feel it would be really beneficial for you to get some up to date books about dog behaviour and how they learn. Jean Donaldsons The Culture Clash is fantastic and has a great chapter on house training and how to see it from the dogs point of view and why it can so easily go wrong. When I got Millie at 18 months it was the first time I'd ever had a dog with aggression issues (all caused from fear) and it really threw me and I even came on here talking about maybe I'd have to re home her ph34r :embarassed: :'( :'(. But I'm so glad I didn't and that I learnt the correct way to treat her as she is a wonderful dog and I dread to think what would have become of her if she'd gone to someone that would punish her instead of trying to understand :'(.
As others have said remember that he is only 15 weeks old. I don't have children so don't know how long it takes to potty train but I imagine it doesn't happen overnight :shades:.
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Thank you all for your advice, reading each and everyone's different stories has given me a positive outlook regards Toby. I/we do now agree, that he does not have this aggressive gene, and I now realise he just doesn't take kindly to being handled, as if he is unwary of whats going on/being done to him, especially behind his back, which in itself is a problem that needs to be resolved. I need to be able to touch him regards to drying him if he becomes wet after a walk, also other people such as my pet groomer when the time comes for him to go to her, and now, when I have to put drops in his ears (for cleaning purposes) and also applying advocate between his neck and shoulder blades for his regular worming/flea treatment. He also attacks my OHs hand (not mine since being bitten last week) when he attaches his collar and lead. In the perfect world of course it would be simpler to just leave his collar on, but as he spends the odd time during the day (mainly supervised ) plus unsupervised nigh-time sleeping in his cage, we cant take the risk of him catching it on any small hook inside, and strangling himself.
I am feeling much more optimistic about Toby in turning out to be a fine adult dog, it just seems harder this time round than it was with any of my others.
On an after-note, when we brought home our two dogs eight years ago, with only seven months between them, we basically replied to an advert, went to see the pup and brought it straight home with us, the same day, got on with rearing, with only minor problems, and turned them both into well behaved adult dogs. With Toby, he was planned almost a years ago, we placed our names on the waiting list, knew the day he was going to be born, saw pictures of newborn pups first day, went to choose him three weeks later, so as you can see, a lot of planning went into Toby, but no planning whatsoever into Benji or Megan, same as my late Petra. I cant wait for his puppy socialisation training to start Tuesday. I so want to be writing a different story about our Toby in two months time.
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Hi Jackie
You're going to have to grasp the bull by the horns as far as training your pup to be handled is concerned. There are so many occasions when he will have to be handled during his life, vet's visits etc, that starting now is right for him and you.
Get yourself a T Touch book and learn the strokes which best relax a dog. Choose a time when you will have no disturbances, no tv, have the radio with classical music gently in the background, take the phone off the hook and relax yourself first. I know it can be a bit frightening but when he's getting tired or quiet is the time to start, make sure he's burnt off all excess energy before you start. If necessary wear some gardening gloves at first so you don't give up at the first nip. Also remember that once he has no fear of your hands he will become more confident, manageable and easier to stroke, and that as you handle him more and more, your confidence will grow too and the bond between you will also grow.
Then one day (probably right out of the blue) you'll find him instigating the stroking session, that's when you'll know you've cracked the problem. ;)
I'm doing exactly this routine with a 5 month old pup who was supposedly *rage*afflicted. It isn't rage, although like your pup he's a bit "in yer face". :005: It's working and he is already (1 and a half days in) looking for strokes and petting, so this way is a good routine to get into.
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Ah...........sounds like you are having a tough time with your little Toby.
I hope it all works out, for the sake of all of you. It is hard training puppies, and sometimes we do things we shouldn't out of frustration, which then confuses them.
The advice you have been given is wonderful..............you will find lots of support, and sound advice from people here.
Looking forward to hearing 'all your success stories soon.' It will happen. :luv:
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I was going to suggest looking at T-touch too. If you want any advice send a PM to clairep4 as she's a T-Touch practitioner.
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Not familiar with this T Touch but have looked it up, and came across the Tellington T- Touch, is this the one you mean? or are their many books out their on this subject regards to teaching T-Touch especially for puppies that would be just as good.
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Not familiar with this T Touch but have looked it up, and came across the Tellington T- Touch, is this the one you mean? or are their many books out their on this subject regards to teaching T-Touch especially for puppies that would be just as good.
Yes, T-Touch is Tellington T-Touch.
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Thank you tillydog, just this minute placed an order with Amazon for her book.
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I don't know where you live Jackie but Clairep4 on here is a practitioner, you could PM her. :D
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I don't know where you live Jackie but Clairep4 on here is a practitioner, you could PM her. :D
I did suggest that too! Jackie, you may well be near to where Claire is or she'll be able to point you in the direction of a practitioner near you.
Tilley Farm (T-touch website) - http://www.tilleyfarm.co.uk/home.html (http://www.tilleyfarm.co.uk/home.html)
Claire's website - http://www.tellingtontouch.org.uk/ (http://www.tellingtontouch.org.uk/)
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I don't know where you live Jackie but Clairep4 on here is a practitioner, you could PM her. :D
I did suggest that too! Jackie, you may well be near to where Claire is or she'll be able to point you in the direction of a practitioner near you.
Tilley Farm (T-touch website) - http://www.tilleyfarm.co.uk/home.html (http://www.tilleyfarm.co.uk/home.html)
Claire's website - http://www.tellingtontouch.org.uk/ (http://www.tellingtontouch.org.uk/)
Oops, never mind, better said twice than not at all. ;)
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I don't know where you live Jackie but Clairep4 on here is a practitioner, you could PM her. :D
I did suggest that too! Jackie, you may well be near to where Claire is or she'll be able to point you in the direction of a practitioner near you.
Tilley Farm (T-touch website) - http://www.tilleyfarm.co.uk/home.html (http://www.tilleyfarm.co.uk/home.html)
Claire's website - http://www.tellingtontouch.org.uk/ (http://www.tellingtontouch.org.uk/)
Oops, never mind, better said twice than not at all. ;)
Exactly!! :-)
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Ha ha great minds think alike.
While I'm here I also would like to mention that our Toby does not show any aggression over his toys /teethers as well as no aggression over feeding times /food, all good positive signs. We just need to sort out this aggressive noise he makes which can happen when he gets excited, ie: to be let out into the garden, he tends to attack the bottom of our sliding door, (although I do recollect our Benji doing that as a pup) which the noise is quite horrible and frightening to hear, and of course his aggression when getting him ready, or when we comes back from his walk, including trying to attack our Benji or Megan, now we tend to keep his lead attached to him and bring him inside and straight to the kitchen to allow him to have his drink of water before taking off his lead and collar, by then he is normally a little calmer.
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of course his aggression when getting him ready
I had a 17 week old cocker pup on foster like this (he had been given up my previous owners as they couldn't cope - he was too confident fo rhis 1st-time dog owners and they had become scared of him) and I found way to ge his harness on was to sit him down and give him a large biscuit (it seemed at the time I had a load of those bonio square and round ones) and thne I would give him one and he was eating it I would place harness over his head then would give him another as a treat fo rlettign me do that then while he was eating that would do another bit and so on.
Sometimes you have to do things in small steps rather than the whole thing at once - if you try to do some things all at once it can be done in a rush and so possibly make the pup feel too 'manhandled' IYSWIM and so set up his reaction as well which in his case can be his teeth or noise.
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Really glad that you are feeling more positive :D Another couple of books that I found invaluable are Turid Rugaas's "On talking terms with Dogs :calming signals" and "Barking, the sound of a language". But the one I found most helpful is Jean Donaldson's "The Culture Clash" which Sarah H mentioned earlier.
We got Ebony Jan 2010, and she was the 1st puppy in 12 years and it was at times challenging, as like you I was used to calmer adult dogs who were very biddable. Now as I type both mine are lying either side of me totally chilled. :luv:
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Yes, you do sound much better, that's great and will help the situation loads of you are feeling calm and in control ;)
I assume that the noise he is making is growling? I would completely ignore that for now and focus on the behaviour. Some cockers are talkers and grumblers, but trying to supress that can often make the situation more difficult. If you just pretend you are deaf :005: and carry on it will often resolve itself.
Don't forget, he is a baby puppy, you want to keep things upbeat and positive (even if you have to grit your teeth to do it :005:) he will respond positively. Most all aggression is fear and/or stress, so keep it light an upbeat; "Oh, you silly thing!"
Another couple of books that I found invaluable are Turid Rugaas's "On talking terms with Dogs :calming signals" and "Barking, the sound of a language".
Absolutely agree, especially "On Talking Terms" :D One thing you can do that sounds so simple and daft, yet is really so powerful is licking your lips, which is a calming signal for dogs. Try it for a while, it's pretty amazing!
For example, if you are going to put his collar on, lick your lips as you approach him, and do it while you are putting on his collar (which you are doing gently and calmly) Just slow all your motions down and lick your lips. To start with you will do it almost continuously then after a while you won't need to do it so much (and yes, you will feel like a numpty at first :lol2: but when you see how effective it is you soon won't worry about it! In fact it is so powerful and has become such a habit with me for my grooming clients that I find myself doing it in my human encounters! ph34r :lol2:
http://theartofdog.com/articles/calming.pdf
http://dogtime.com/lip-lick-tongue-flick-dog-speak-colleen-safford.html
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No its not growling, as my OH puts it, its more like a wild cat sound.
Even after ten days I am still very hesitant in putting his collar on, I have to pick my moment, and even that fails if he turns his head and I fear or feel the slightest of a nip. We have a walk/car harness ready for Tuesdays training sessions ( we will be travelling on the motorway ) and we need to get it adjusted to fit him, as I dont think I will be comfortable now with him sitting on my lap in the back of the car, ( Oh is doing the driving. ) But I am getting more confidant day by day, fingers crossed it never happens again, otherwise I shall be back where I started.
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Dont forget too that your pup will be picking up on your anxiety, so if you're pre-empting (scuse my spelling) a nip before he's even done anything, he'll be picking up on that.
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Hope all goes well in tonights class Jackie. I'm sure Toby will be settled on no time. :D :happydance:
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With regards to the 'wild cat' sound, it is a completely normal noise for a young pup to be making. If you observe a litter of puppies at play with the usual rough housing then this is the noise they make, it does sound alarming and savage but it doesn't mean that the pup is aggressive.
All of mine have done this as pups especially when excited, it just means that you have a confident, head strong pup and when excited he is treating you as he treated his litter mates.
Using positive training methods will work but give him time as he is still very young.
I hope you can start to enjoy him as they are puppies for too short a time.
Good Luck and stay positive!
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Hi everyone just popped in for a Toby progress report.
One thing I omitted to mentioned in my opening topic. The bite I received from Toby was one inch to the side and above my veins in my wrist, at the lower end of my thumb joint, this was why I was feeling so fearful of him the first few days afterwards, maybe had the bite been elsewhere it would not have had the same effect.
The good news is, that I am now starting to "like" him again and think we are starting to bond. If I am honest, even the few weeks leading up to the bite, when both myself and OH started to believe that Toby had this rage gene, I was starting to dislike him and again if I'm honest, also was rejecting him.
We have both noticed an improvement, and I can honestly put that down to finding this forum. Firstly the amount of advice you all have given and all so positive, has put me in a different frame of mind, I have looked for the good, lovable signs rather than the bad, hateful signs of past. We have both noticed that Toby all of a sudden is becoming a more "adult" puppy. We have been allowing him much longer out of his cage, we no longer use the cage as a form of punishment, and we are both working together as regards to training him both at home and now at the training venue.
We have not long reached home after his hour long first training session. I have been very impressed with our venue, our instructor (Heather) with Toby himself, as he showed no signs of aggression with the other six or seven puppies. The training went very well, we have a lot of homework to do this week, but I shall persevere as he is definitely trainable. I also had him on my lap ( his head resting on my shoulder) in the back of the car with no biting or nipping whatsoever. Think he was tired and worn out. I am so looking forward to next weeks lessons. Here is the link to his training venue......
http://www.thefamilydog.co.uk/about-clare-lang-atkinson.html
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Glad to hear things are going so well for you now :D
Enjoy your pupster :D
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That sounds like a really positive start. Well done all of you.
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So pleased for you & Toby :banana:
You sound so much more positive about him :luv:
I strongly believe that a pupster/dog will pick up on vibes from their owners & even sense if they are not liked :'( it now seems like Toby is far happier because of your positive attitude :luv:
Wishing you good luck with the little fella :D
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Brilliant news Jackie! :D
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Well done Jackie (and Toby :luv:) I'm impressed with your training venue - how cool is that yurt :shades: The trainers all sound well-qualified and real dog-lovers - and top dog Drago is extremely handsome! I'm sure you'll have lots of fun training Toby - he sounds like a very intelligent boy with bags of energy who needs that intelligence channelling into positive activities.
I remember my Tilly being a shock to my system when she was a pup - she launched herself into my containers of flowers, flattening the lot, she dug up everything in the garden, she nipped and barked, she ripped my daughter's favourite pair of trousers from knee to hem, chewed the zip out of a brand-new pair of boots and was frankly a right little pain at times. But she was only a baby and is now a fabulous precious girl of nearly 8 - the best dog in the world :D. We did lots of training and I think that really helps those active little brains and creates a strong bond between the two of you.
Good luck to you both and enjoy!
Sue and Tilly
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No its not growling, as my OH puts it, its more like a wild cat sound.
Even after ten days I am still very hesitant in putting his collar on, I have to pick my moment, and even that fails if he turns his head and I fear or feel the slightest of a nip. We have a walk/car harness ready for Tuesdays training sessions ( we will be travelling on the motorway ) and we need to get it adjusted to fit him, as I dont think I will be comfortable now with him sitting on my lap in the back of the car, ( Oh is doing the driving. ) But I am getting more confidant day by day, fingers crossed it never happens again, otherwise I shall be back where I started.
don't know if you saw my bit re a similar pup I had on foster - where I did things like this in stages - 1st getting him to sit then treating etc. (I used the large bonio square biscuits that took longer to chew ;)) step by step i did it without getting bitten - if you do things hesitantly and in a rush he will sense your anxiety
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No its not growling, as my OH puts it, its more like a wild cat sound.
Does it sound like a gargling high noise? :shades:
If it is, then its the same noise Quinn does when he's launching himself at my older cocker to try and get her to play. Its a horrible sound but am used to it now, to me it sounds like he's gargling/warbling :005:
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Thank you all for your help and advice, we are ready and prepared to try anything that is suggested, at the end of the day we both want to get it right,and have a happy and successful relationship with our Toby.
OH was out walking the other two dogs the other day, and as it was approaching Toby's next feed I could not wait any longer for him to get back, regards taking Toby for his walk, so I hunted for a pair of OHs thick gloves (to protect my wrists) and while wearing them managed to attach his collar and lead, not in my wildest dreams would I ever had expected it would come to this :lol2: but I shall be looking for a simpler and more natural way to deal with this problem in the future, ie: Linda Tellington-Jones TT-Touch book which we now have.
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Well done! :D Do you feel that sense of achievement? Little steps and you'll get there ;)
Now the next stage is getting him used to be handled around his neck and head. Some dogs are very 'hand shy' around this area, so this is where TTouch can be used to really good effect.