Dyllan and recall

[anita96]

if the dogs life is at risk

It could be argued that a dog which does not recall or drop to the stop whistle is life or death, I know people who have lost their dog because it has chanced and not returned to either recall or dropped.  I have lost count of the amount of people who have said to me on walks 'oh it comes back eventually'  for me I  can't accept that behaviour from my dog, it panics me to much, and I would be devasted if I lost my dog due to something like that. 

Also with regards to taking a dog by the scruff, when I am out training mocha and working him, as many working dogs they do not have their collars on incase they  catch on something.  Therefore it is sometime all you can get hold of until you put the lead on. 

[Top Barks]

Aversive methods are often a quick fix.
You just have to search your heart and see if it sits right with you.
All dogs are indeed different and obviously aversive methods work or people wouldn't have been using them all these years otherwise.
I have two of these hard wired gun dogs who's instincts tell them to go and flush game and I have worked damned hard to ensure the recall is proofed by using positive methods.
With Bayley it took me 6 months and personally i do not believe you cannot train a dog using positive methods as long as you reward the dog with something it really wants.
Some trainers are so one dimensional with their rewards and fail because of this and lack of patience.
Excellent debate on both sides thankyou.
mark

[anita96]

You just have to search your heart and see if it sits right with you.

A great point mark, I saw on one of the signatures of a member of nobs,

"A man who kicks his dog, is kicking his soul to hell"

how true, not that I kick my dog but I always think of that phrase if I get frustrated with the boy.

[Cob-Web]

Jean Donaldson says that she would consider using negative reinforcement training methods in cases of predation problems if the dogs life is at risk -

What is a predation problem? 

I have always assumed she is referring to dogs such as some greyhounds, which have a high prey drive; which has often been reinforced through training - highly-driven greys can, and will, chase and kill small animals that run - including small breed dogs  If this cannot be trained out of a greyhound after they leave the track, then they face a very poor quality of life, or PTS The majority of ex-racing dogs can be trained out of this without the need to use negative methods - but in the case of a few, I suppose it may be necessary to "quick fix", as spaces in rescue are limited and so a dog which is taking time to retrain is taking up a space which could be offered to a rehabilitated dog 

It could be argued that a dog which does not recall or drop to the stop whistle is life or death, I know people who have lost their dog because it has chanced and not returned to either recall or dropped. 

Quite true......but I agree with Mark - positive methods do work; they take longer, though, which means more work for the trainer 

[Rhona W]

I have two of these hard wired gun dogs who's instincts tell them to go and flush game and I have worked damned hard to ensure the recall is proofed by using positive methods.

I have two too.  When we are over the fields their recall is very good. 

But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so.  They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.
OH and I have argued over what to do in this situation. He says we shouldn't take them as it undoes all the work we have put into their recall. I think we shouldn't try to recall them for the first 15 minutes or so, and work on it for the rest of the walk. They are good on recall without major distractions, and it won't improve with distractions unless we work on it. 
What would you advise?
The woods are totally isolated by the way, so there is no danger of them running onto the road and we have never met anyone else there.

[anita96]

Let me know where it is sounds a great place to walk your dog!!!

[Cob-Web]

He says we shouldn't take them as it undoes all the work we have put into their recall. I think we shouldn't try to recall them for the first 15 minutes or so, and work on it for the rest of the walk.

If it is safe for them (enclosed from any roads and there is no risk of them spooking other people/horses/animals etc), then why not?   

When I was line training Molo, I used to go to tennis courts and other enclosed spaces such a paddocks and let him run to his hearts content without the line - I didn't try and recall him as I knew it would reinforce him ignoring me, but felt it was important for both of us and our bond that he had this freedom without us having to constantly be in "training" mode 

[anita96]

But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so.  They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.

Well they say not to recall the dog if you aren't 100% it will come back so I wouldn't for the first 15 mins.  Therefore your aren't rienforcing any them ignoring you.  I sure a friends paddocks on her farm for mochas free running, so lucky there.

[Top Barks]

in this situation only use your recall cue when the dog is on his way to you already and reward with something the dog really wants.
With Bayley just being released to go and do his thing after a few paces walking by my side is better than any food reward, but it might not always be the case.
You have to build up an understanding of what your dog wants at that moment in time and use it to your advantage.
I do use food and treat for up to thirty seconds with one of my dogs when he recalls but with Baylo the food is trivial and whilst he'll gladly take it and get something positive from being with me it has now become the fact he will be released again that is his major reward. for those of you who don't know his story, his off lead experience was very limited when i took him on in February and to see him dash through the heather it's like it's still all new to him.
it's like he just got the keys to a new Ferrari (He wishes )
I also do not always release him so he is on what is called a variable shedule of reward.
A human comparrisonis like playing a slot machine and you never know if you might just earn that jackpot. Most of the time you win 50p and just the odd time you win big.
The trick is to allow the dog to win big just enough times to keep him hooked.

[Joelf]

I'm fairly strong but I couldn't physically pick Spike up by the scruff of his neck to lift him up over a fence even if I wanted to - (which I don't!) as he weighs over 30kgs!!

Sorry if I've deviated slightly off topic!!

[PennyB]

if the dogs life is at risk

It could be argued that a dog which does not recall or drop to the stop whistle is life or death, I know people who have lost their dog because it has chanced and not returned to either recall or dropped.  I have lost count of the amount of people who have said to me on walks 'oh it comes back eventually'  for me I  can't accept that behaviour from my dog, it panics me to much, and I would be devasted if I lost my dog due to something like that. 
 

I agree (and where I live a number of dogs have ended up beiing killed on the railway line as a result). I've developed a number of strategies to get mine back and still work on them as I know cockers take advantage if you become complacent

[Mich]

But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so.  They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.
OH and I have argued over what to do in this situation. He says we shouldn't take them as it undoes all the work we have put into their recall. I think we shouldn't try to recall them for the first 15 minutes or so, and work on it for the rest of the walk. They are good on recall without major distractions, and it won't improve with distractions unless we work on it. 
What would you advise?

Bails is the same, I never recall him in the first 15 mins or so, there is no point he cannot here me!!!

[Mich]

With Bayley just being released to go and do his thing after a few paces walking by my side is better than any food reward, but it might not always be the case.
You have to build up an understanding of what your dog wants at that moment in time and use it to your advantage.

This is so, so true.  Bails doesn't want food when out either, he just wants his freedom and so that has become his reward.  It was so difficult to get to the point where he understands that most of the time he will be released when he returns.   

[Rhona W]

Mark and Mich - I don't get how that works!  You recall your dog and his reward for coming back is to be allowed to run off again. But he can stay free by not coming back.  So where is the incentive there? Because if he doesn't come back when you call, you can't put him back on the lead anyway. 
Sorry if it is me being dense there.  I'm not questioning that it works. Just wondering why/how. 

I must say when I do recall my dogs in the woods, they really aren't interested in any treats I have anyway. You practically have to force food upon them. 

[Mich]

Mark and Mich - I don't get how that works!  You recall your dog and his reward for coming back is to be allowed to run off again. But he can stay free by not coming back.  So where is the incentive there? Because if he doesn't come back when you call, you can't put him back on the lead anyway. 
Sorry if it is me being dense there.  I'm not questioning that it works. Just wondering why/how. 

I must say when I do recall my dogs in the woods, they really aren't interested in any treats I have anyway. You practically have to force food upon them. 

I so know what you mean hun!!!  It's really hard for me to explain, (sure Mark will do a much better job!!! ) basically, we had terrible trouble with Bails recall when he was a 'teenager' he wouldn't come back for anything - ever, we used to have to devise ways of catching him!

Now he is much more responsive, but he is still not interested in food when out at all.  So when I recall him I get him to sit,then down,  get his attention on me and tell him what a wonderful boy he is and then send him away!

Re- reading my post I have not told you how it works at all! Sorry!!!